Happy trails to Hinkie's Power.

[oldtype]

What is the purpose of this ridiculous exercise. Everyone knows philly has better assets.

[mctyson]

I think I've sufficiently made my point.  People can disagree with me.  It's fine.   Philly has options, though.  Lots and lots of options.  Should be interesting to see what they do.

No, actually you have not sufficiently made your point. 

I have listened to your argument many times about the Sixers.  You have been steadfast in your opinion that anyone drafted by them (simply because they are a top 5 pick) has far more value than anyone on most NBA rosters, including the Celtics.  You believe Embiid is a franchise-altering talent.  You believe Noel is a Defensive PoY talent.  You believe Okafor is an top-tier All-Star center talent.  You believe they will turn their top-5 pick this year into an All-Star, and also possibly have an All-Star coming from overseas in Saric, and maybe will steal the Lakers pick to produce another All-Star.

The only problem is that almost all of the evidence produced by this team and Hinkie indicates you are wrong. 

The 76rs are an epically bad franchise this year.  They were also terrible last year and the year before that. We are 1/4th through the season and they have 1 win, against a team that is trying as hard as possible to tank and not a pick to them.  They might be one of the worst teams in history.

I don't care how young Noel, Okafor, et al are.  Lebron helped a team win 35 games his rookie year at 19.  Kobe's team won over 50 his rookie year.  So did Tim Duncan.  Shaq? 41 wins. 

You don't build championship teams by drafting 19 year olds, playing them with other 20 year olds, with other 22 year olds who probably arent any good...and trot them out against the NBAs elite.  What you do build is the modern day version of the Los Angeles Clippers.  How many people trusted Elgin Baylor's "process?"

And further, all of this epic losing and terrible basketball has done nothing but reduce the value of their players.  Look at what they got for Michale Carter Williams...a limited player for sure but still the RoY in his class.  They got a 1st round pick from the Suns, which without question projects to be a lower value than MCW at this point.  Noel is not the 2nd coming of Dikembe Mutombo, and he is proving on a nightly basis that his offense is closer to Kendrick Perkins.  And let's not even get started on Embiid...who may never even have a meaningful career in the NBA.  Okafor is the one player who has shown immediate NBA potential/skill, except on defense, but there are of course now even questions about his makeup as a franchise guy.

If you can't see that the actual players on their team (you say "loaded with talent") actually are very limited, I can't help you.  Colangelo is there because it is quite clear that Hinkie just might not have a very good ability to draft and scout talent.  The facts are that his plan is failing, failing far, far, FAR worse than previously thought.  And you still reiterate you would trade the Celtics position for theirs, when the Cs are only 1.5 games out of 1st place in the East, WITH A YOUNG TEAM?!?!?!

[tazzmaniac]

And further, all of this epic losing and terrible basketball has done nothing but reduce the value of their players.  Look at what they got for Michale Carter Williams...a limited player for sure but still the RoY in his class.  They got a 1st round pick from the Suns, which without question projects to be a lower value than MCW at this point. 

This MCW spiel irks me.  MCW was drafted 11th in a weak draft so he wasn't some high rated prospect.  He is now coming of the bench for the Bucks.  In exchange for MCW, the Sixers got the Lakers 1st (2016 top 3 protected, 2017 top 3 protected, 2018 unprotected) from the Suns.  That's great value for MCW.  If the Bucks tried to trade MCW now, they couldn't get nearly that much in return.  Maybe someone would give up a late 1st for him but I wouldn't.     

[celticsclay]

And further, all of this epic losing and terrible basketball has done nothing but reduce the value of their players.  Look at what they got for Michale Carter Williams...a limited player for sure but still the RoY in his class.  They got a 1st round pick from the Suns, which without question projects to be a lower value than MCW at this point. 

This MCW spiel irks me.  MCW was drafted 11th in a weak draft so he wasn't some high rated prospect.  He is now coming of the bench for the Bucks.  In exchange for MCW, the Sixers got the Lakers 1st (2016 top 3 protected, 2017 top 3 protected, 2018 unprotected) from the Suns.  That's great value for MCW.  If the Bucks tried to trade MCW now, they couldn't get nearly that much in return.  Maybe someone would give up a late 1st for him but I wouldn't.     

Ironically, the Lakers pick could end up being a late first three years down the road from the time of the trade. Pretty sure the Bucks could get a 2020 late first from a contending team that needs a backup point guard with some defensive skills.  Funny it irks you.

[LarBrd33]

I think I've sufficiently made my point.  People can disagree with me.  It's fine.   Philly has options, though.  Lots and lots of options.  Should be interesting to see what they do.

No, actually you have not sufficiently made your point. 

I've definitely made my point.  That doesn't mean people can't ignore it and be in denial about the boatloads of golden assets Philly owns and their unlimited options heading forward.   It'll be fun to see what happens.   We aren't going to know if Hinkie's plan failed for at least a couple seasons.   Tell you what though... if he lands Ben Simmons in this draft, it was a success.  Same if any of their other assets pay off.

They were shameless and set themselves up in basically the perfect situation heading forward for an NBA GM.   They could still make the wrong moves and fail... but that doesn't mean that the strategy was a waste of time.   I'd swap our collection of players/picks/contracts for Philly's right now.   Now, that mess of a team they have and the presumed bad vibes in their locker room is another issue entirely... but that was inevitable with the way they structured that team... and it's something that can be fixed in a single summer.

[freshinthehouse]

And further, all of this epic losing and terrible basketball has done nothing but reduce the value of their players.  Look at what they got for Michale Carter Williams...a limited player for sure but still the RoY in his class.  They got a 1st round pick from the Suns, which without question projects to be a lower value than MCW at this point. 

This MCW spiel irks me.  MCW was drafted 11th in a weak draft so he wasn't some high rated prospect.  He is now coming of the bench for the Bucks.  In exchange for MCW, the Sixers got the Lakers 1st (2016 top 3 protected, 2017 top 3 protected, 2018 unprotected) from the Suns.  That's great value for MCW.  If the Bucks tried to trade MCW now, they couldn't get nearly that much in return.  Maybe someone would give up a late 1st for him but I wouldn't.     

Exactly.  Gms around the league were amazed that the Sixers were able to get such a valuable pick for a player of MCW's caliber.  Dude won rookie of the year in one of the worst rookie classes in recent memory.  Yee haw.  MCW is probably gonna go down as the worst ROY winner since Phil Ford in the late 70s.

[Emmette Bryant]

http://deadspin.com/reports-the-nba-wants-sam-hinkie-out-of-the-paint-1746848561

[ssspence]

I think I've sufficiently made my point.  People can disagree with me.  It's fine.   Philly has options, though.  Lots and lots of options.  Should be interesting to see what they do.

No, actually you have not sufficiently made your point. 

I have listened to your argument many times about the Sixers.  You have been steadfast in your opinion that anyone drafted by them (simply because they are a top 5 pick) has far more value than anyone on most NBA rosters, including the Celtics.  You believe Embiid is a franchise-altering talent.  You believe Noel is a Defensive PoY talent.  You believe Okafor is an top-tier All-Star center talent.  You believe they will turn their top-5 pick this year into an All-Star, and also possibly have an All-Star coming from overseas in Saric, and maybe will steal the Lakers pick to produce another All-Star.

The only problem is that almost all of the evidence produced by this team and Hinkie indicates you are wrong. 

The 76rs are an epically bad franchise this year.  They were also terrible last year and the year before that. We are 1/4th through the season and they have 1 win, against a team that is trying as hard as possible to tank and not a pick to them.  They might be one of the worst teams in history.

I don't care how young Noel, Okafor, et al are.  Lebron helped a team win 35 games his rookie year at 19.  Kobe's team won over 50 his rookie year.  So did Tim Duncan.  Shaq? 41 wins. 

You don't build championship teams by drafting 19 year olds, playing them with other 20 year olds, with other 22 year olds who probably arent any good...and trot them out against the NBAs elite.  What you do build is the modern day version of the Los Angeles Clippers.  How many people trusted Elgin Baylor's "process?"

And further, all of this epic losing and terrible basketball has done nothing but reduce the value of their players.  Look at what they got for Michale Carter Williams...a limited player for sure but still the RoY in his class.  They got a 1st round pick from the Suns, which without question projects to be a lower value than MCW at this point.  Noel is not the 2nd coming of Dikembe Mutombo, and he is proving on a nightly basis that his offense is closer to Kendrick Perkins.  And let's not even get started on Embiid...who may never even have a meaningful career in the NBA.  Okafor is the one player who has shown immediate NBA potential/skill, except on defense, but there are of course now even questions about his makeup as a franchise guy.

If you can't see that the actual players on their team (you say "loaded with talent") actually are very limited, I can't help you.  Colangelo is there because it is quite clear that Hinkie just might not have a very good ability to draft and scout talent.  The facts are that his plan is failing, failing far, far, FAR worse than previously thought.  And you still reiterate you would trade the Celtics position for theirs, when the Cs are only 1.5 games out of 1st place in the East, WITH A YOUNG TEAM?!?!?!

I don't have the energy to get into this whole diatribe -- I just want to point out that i think you're objectivity and indeed accuracy here leave a lot to be desired.

LB33 -- you're obessed with the Sixers. God bless ya.

[slamtheking]

I think I've sufficiently made my point.  People can disagree with me.  It's fine.   Philly has options, though.  Lots and lots of options.  Should be interesting to see what they do.

No, actually you have not sufficiently made your point. 

I've definitely made my point. That doesn't mean people can't ignore it and be in denial about the boatloads of golden assets Philly owns and their unlimited options heading forward.   It'll be fun to see what happens.   We aren't going to know if Hinkie's plan failed for at least a couple seasons.   Tell you what though... if he lands Ben Simmons in this draft, it was a success.  Same if any of their other assets pay off.

They were shameless and set themselves up in basically the perfect situation heading forward for an NBA GM.   They could still make the wrong moves and fail... but that doesn't mean that the strategy was a waste of time.   I'd swap our collection of players/picks/contracts for Philly's right now.   Now, that mess of a team they have and the presumed bad vibes in their locker room is another issue entirely... but that was inevitable with the way they structured that team... and it's something that can be fixed in a single summer.

yes, your point is that you shamelessly favor all other franchises over the Celtics.

the assets you claim to be 'golden' are tarnished.  Sure, Noel is a decent prospect as a defensive center.  Okafor looks like good prospect if you want a scoring center.  Neither is a complete player.  Embiid is a greatly dimished asset because he can't get/stay healthy.  Saric, so-so asset since he's holding out until after his rookie deal.  Their pick and the Laker pick, sure, pretty solid assets provided the Laker pick conveys this year.  Next year, that pick doesn't figure to be as valuable.

Covington's a rotation player possibly but he could be another case of inflated stats because someone other than Okafor has to score.  the rest of the roster is lucky to be cashing an NBA paycheck.

You're on a very short list of people that admire what Philly has done and think their GM is competent never mind in an enviable position for having done what you consider a great job.

[tazzmaniac]

And further, all of this epic losing and terrible basketball has done nothing but reduce the value of their players.  Look at what they got for Michale Carter Williams...a limited player for sure but still the RoY in his class.  They got a 1st round pick from the Suns, which without question projects to be a lower value than MCW at this point. 

This MCW spiel irks me.  MCW was drafted 11th in a weak draft so he wasn't some high rated prospect.  He is now coming of the bench for the Bucks.  In exchange for MCW, the Sixers got the Lakers 1st (2016 top 3 protected, 2017 top 3 protected, 2018 unprotected) from the Suns.  That's great value for MCW.  If the Bucks tried to trade MCW now, they couldn't get nearly that much in return.  Maybe someone would give up a late 1st for him but I wouldn't.     

Ironically, the Lakers pick could end up being a late first three years down the road from the time of the trade. Pretty sure the Bucks could get a 2020 late first from a contending team that needs a backup point guard with some defensive skills.  Funny it irks you.

Not the same thing and you know it.  While your scenario is certainly possible, it is highly unlikely that the Lakers will be a bottom 3 team again next season and then transform themselves into a championship contender the following season. 

It irks me because the MCW argument is two-faced.  I've seen no one argue that MCW is a good starting PG or even projects to be one.  If he was on the Celtics, there would be a massive outcry to get rid of him.  If Ainge would have traded MCW for the Lakers pick, it would have been deemed a good trade and the Lakers pick a valuable asset. 

[LarBrd33]

I think I've sufficiently made my point.  People can disagree with me.  It's fine.   Philly has options, though.  Lots and lots of options.  Should be interesting to see what they do.

No, actually you have not sufficiently made your point. 

I have listened to your argument many times about the Sixers.  You have been steadfast in your opinion that anyone drafted by them (simply because they are a top 5 pick) has far more value than anyone on most NBA rosters, including the Celtics.  You believe Embiid is a franchise-altering talent.  You believe Noel is a Defensive PoY talent.  You believe Okafor is an top-tier All-Star center talent.  You believe they will turn their top-5 pick this year into an All-Star, and also possibly have an All-Star coming from overseas in Saric, and maybe will steal the Lakers pick to produce another All-Star.

The only problem is that almost all of the evidence produced by this team and Hinkie indicates you are wrong. 

The 76rs are an epically bad franchise this year.  They were also terrible last year and the year before that. We are 1/4th through the season and they have 1 win, against a team that is trying as hard as possible to tank and not a pick to them.  They might be one of the worst teams in history.

I don't care how young Noel, Okafor, et al are.  Lebron helped a team win 35 games his rookie year at 19.  Kobe's team won over 50 his rookie year.  So did Tim Duncan.  Shaq? 41 wins. 

You don't build championship teams by drafting 19 year olds, playing them with other 20 year olds, with other 22 year olds who probably arent any good...and trot them out against the NBAs elite.  What you do build is the modern day version of the Los Angeles Clippers.  How many people trusted Elgin Baylor's "process?"

And further, all of this epic losing and terrible basketball has done nothing but reduce the value of their players.  Look at what they got for Michale Carter Williams...a limited player for sure but still the RoY in his class.  They got a 1st round pick from the Suns, which without question projects to be a lower value than MCW at this point.  Noel is not the 2nd coming of Dikembe Mutombo, and he is proving on a nightly basis that his offense is closer to Kendrick Perkins.  And let's not even get started on Embiid...who may never even have a meaningful career in the NBA.  Okafor is the one player who has shown immediate NBA potential/skill, except on defense, but there are of course now even questions about his makeup as a franchise guy.

If you can't see that the actual players on their team (you say "loaded with talent") actually are very limited, I can't help you.  Colangelo is there because it is quite clear that Hinkie just might not have a very good ability to draft and scout talent.  The facts are that his plan is failing, failing far, far, FAR worse than previously thought.  And you still reiterate you would trade the Celtics position for theirs, when the Cs are only 1.5 games out of 1st place in the East, WITH A YOUNG TEAM?!?!?!

I don't have the energy to get into this whole diatribe -- I just want to point out that i think you're objectivity and indeed accuracy here leave a lot to be desired.

LB33 -- you're obessed with the Sixers. God bless ya.

More just annoyed with the same inaccurate ideas shared over and over.  I don't care if Philly falls flat on their face.  The bottom line is that you can expect to see sweeping changes from them this summer... sweeping changes they'll have the luxury of making thanks to having boatloads of valuable assets.  I don't expect everyone to understand that.  Most folks just watch the game and say "hey where'd we get this Thomas guy.. he's pretty good" without realizing how Ainge pulled it off.  They just assume their favorite player like Marcus Smart fell out of the sky.

[MBunge]

How about a little exercise...   

Forget about Philly's top assets for a moment (Embiid, Saric, Noel, Okafor, 2016 top 5, 2016/17 top 5 via Lakers) ...  Obviously there's disagreement (though I'd argue their two best assets are better than our two best assets)

FOrget about Philly's middle tier assets like Stauskas, Covington, Wroten, Grant, Thompson, Sampson, etc...   Obviously there's some disagreement  (though I'd argue they at-worst are comparable with our Rozier, Hunter, Mickey and Young assets).

Let's also forget about their 60 million in cap space and the relative ease they could sign Jerekbo, Bass, Lee, Turner-level talent. 

Instead... let's focus on one tiny aspect of their assets.  Miami's Top 10 protected pick and Oklahoma's top 15 protected pick.   Right now, those two picks project to be #24 and #26...

Let's get an honest opinion here.   Take a look at Boston's entire roster.  It's deep, but there's a gluttony of Power forwards.  Lots of parity and mediocrity. 

Someone list off all the players you would honestly gladly dump on Philly right now for one of those late 1sts they own from Miami/OKC.    In previous years, we dumped guys like Jeff Green for one of those picks.  Last year, we acquired Isaiah Thomas for Cleveland's 2016 pick....   Let's get an honest opinion about the value of those two late 1sts.   Remember, philly has cap space to swallow salary... who would you honestly move right now for ONE of those picks?   Let's see how deep that list is.    Bonus points:  What players would you move for BOTH of those picks?

Coming into the last draft, Dustin Chapman put together a post that looked at the last 20 years of late first round draft picks.  The post is here, http://www.celticsblog.com/2015/5/24/8652941/a-look-at-late-first-round-nba-draft-picks-of-the-last-20-years, but this is what he found for the two picks you mention.

24TH OVERALL PICK
Accumulative Stats (Last 20 #24 Overall Picks): 9.1 PPG - 3.5 RPG - 2.4 APG
All-Stars: 2 - Andrei Kirilenko (1), Kyle Lowry (1)


26TH OVERALL PICK
Accumulative Stats (Last 20 #26 Overall Picks): 8.8 PPG - 4.1 RPG - 1.6 APG
All-Stars: 0

So, no one with a brain would trade Smart, Bradley, Turner, Sully, KO, Crowder or IT for either or both of those picks.  Probably also wouldn't trade Young, Jerebko, Zeller or Rozier.  Might trade RJ, Mickey or Zeller but only if Ainge and Stevens are unhappy with them.

So, basically, the only players Boston would likely trade for those picks would be Lee or Amir and that would only be due to them being older veterans who are unlikely to stick around long term.  Both have been and are better than the players we'd be likely to get at either of those spots.

Oh, I forgot.  Those are Philly's picks so they magically become massively more valuable in your eyes.

Mike

Completely false.  This response is entirely off base.  Try again.   In recent Boston Celtic history alone, we've seen Boston both trade away higher caliber players than the ones you're listing (Jeff Green, Rajon Rondo) for late 1sts... as well as acquire higher caliber players than the ones you're listing (Isaiah Thomas). 

You underestimate the value of removing extra unneeded vets for 1st round picks.   Come on... we've been following this league for years.  You haven't seen a veteran traded for a late 1st before?   As recently as last year we were desperate to trade Brandon Bass for one.

Again, Smart, Bradley, Turner, Sully, KO and IT are way better than any player you are likely to get with those picks. 

And again, we literally got IT last season with a worse pick than either of those two Philly own. 

Combining a bunch of late picks for a superstar is unlikely... but if we're talking about adding some veteran depth using them... they absolutely can.  These are all things they'll have to address this summer.  It will depend on what they perceive their holes to be.  Right now, the roster isn't set up with the intention of winning games... so it doesn't matter.

We got Hunter with the #28 pick.  I'm sure if we really wanted to, and had the cap space to do it, we could dump him for Brandon Bass right now.

Let's stay on point.  Your question was about who on Boston's roster would get traded for those two late first round picks owned by Philly, with the clear implication that you think many of them would.  I gave specific reasons why that isn't the case.

Apparently unable to refute those specific reasons and perhaps realizing that you have, yet again, committed yourself to a really, really poor argument, you have abandoned your original position and have instead flailed around for generic examples of team's trading veterans for similar picks.

But pretty much all your examples involve teams that simply wanted to get rid of a veteran and were willing to take bad deals to do so.  Is there a single person on Earth who thinks Phoenix made a good deal in trading IT for a 9 game rental of Marcus Thornton and a 2016 pick that looks to be in the 25-30 range?

I mean, I'm sure the Lakers would be thrilled to swap Bass for the 24th pick in next year's draft.  Should Philly make that deal?

Mike

[Lucky17]

Absolutely historic turn of events in Philly.

A GM's peers petitioned their commissioner to take his keys away and give them to someone else.

Ted Stepien had a rule named after him for complete ineptitude. Silver just invoked the Hinkie Rule: no NBA GM can trot out a DLeague team for 2+ years and expect the rest of the league to subsidize a lesser product.

Amazing times, guys. Really.

[LarBrd33]

Mike.  Duke it out with the other fan that suggested there were several players including zeller and turner that he'd trade for one of those picks.  I'm not going to waste my time educating you on the trade value of a top 10 protected Miami pick and whether or not an NBA role player getting no minutes like Tyler zeller can be had for one.  Go find a trade log and figure it out. 

This Philly story is funny.  They hire a better GM so they can stop tanking... Uh... How do you suppose they could "stop tanking" without acquiring talent?   How could they acquire talent if they didn't have assets?

My guess is we see no significant moves until this summer.  They will land a top 5 pick... Perhaps two of them.  Boatloads of assets and cap space make them a fascinating team to keep an eye on this offseason, though.   We will see sweeping changes.  But I expected to see sweeping changes from them anyways.  Whether Hinkie is making those moves this summer of colangelo doesn't matter.  I suspect colangalo raises their ceiling a bit though.  Hinkie got the assets, colangelo can figure out what to do with them. 

It's like people expect them to go out and sign a bunch of free agents and trade everyone including their draft pick this week.  Don't hold your breathe. 

[LarBrd33]

Absolutely historic turn of events in Philly.

A GM's peers petitioned their commissioner to take his keys away and give them to someone else.

Ted Stepien had a rule named after him for complete ineptitude. Silver just invoked the Hinkie Rule: no NBA GM can trot out a DLeague team for 2+ years and expect the rest of the league to subsidize a lesser product.

Amazing times, guys. Really.

I'll believe it when I see it.  What's colangelo going to do differently this year than hinkie ?  This story is only shocking for those that assumed philly was losing accidentally, that their ownership wasn't supportive of the plan, and that they had no intention of trying to win next year. 

When the NBA steps in and forces Philly to trade their draft pick or split up okafor/Noel, we have a story.  Until then, it's just a team placating critics and setting themselves up for a big summer of change ... A summer of change that was inevitable.