Happy trails to Hinkie's Power.

[Csfan1984]

Wonder if the ownership is indeed losing faith due to the selections themselves and not plan. Like Embid, MCW, Saric, Okafor and Noel could have been Smart, LaVine, Giannis, Porzingis, and Noel. If 76ers hit on their picks they would be very good shape.

Embiid was a calculated risk.  Most talented prospect on the board at that time.  MCW you can question, but it was a weak draft.  Saric we don't know about.  Okafor and Noel were also the most talented prospect on the board where they were taken.  Hinkie was just staying true to his philosophy ... don't worry about actually building a team until you've got the young stars in place.

I didn't purposely pick positions but it did work that way lol. I was talking hitting where they were picking. If they had a do over based on players available when they picked it should be Smart over Embid (one could have passed on health), LaVine over Payton(LaVine had more upside IMO), Porzingis over Okafor(Porzingis looked like a better fit next to Noel), Greek freak over MCW (MCW was flawed to start with) and still take Noel.

Sure, but a GM's drafting can't be evaluated retroactively like that.  You have to assess their decision based on the information available at the time.

When you look at how the prospects they chose turned out, then you're evaluating the player's adjustment to the NBA and the team's development process, not the GM's drafting.

Well that and they didn't draft Payton, Orlando did.

76ers drafted Payton and traded him to Magic for Saric + extras.

No.  The trade was made before the pick it just couldn't be finalized until after the draft.  The Magic selected Payton, the Sixers selected Saric.  The Sixers got an extra 1st round pick and a 2nd round pick to move back 2 spots and draft the player they were going to draft anyway.

Still their pick was used for Payton. Not Saric. I have to go by what the pick was to say who they could have drafted. If I go off trade down then that changes players available. And since they indeed had the higher pick and had full control of it till draft selection then we can't say they could have only gotten players at the magic slot can we?

They originally had the 10th pick, but they didn't draft Payton.  That is what I was objecting to i.e. your statement that they drafted Payton.

And to be clear the Sixers traded the 2014 10th pick for the 2014 12th pick, Philly's 2017 1st round pick, and a 2015 2nd round pick (which they then traded for a 2020 2nd round pick, a 2021 2nd round pick, and cash).  It looks like that 2017 Philadelphia 1st they re-acquired is going to be a pretty good pick.  Thus, I'd say they clearly won that trade.  Now if you want to say that after the trade instead of Saric they should have drafted someone else (like say LaVine), I'd be happy to listen to that, though until Saric comes over it will be hard to really gauge if he was the wrong pick.  Remember, Philly was always going to be bad for a couple of years so a slight improvement that a guy like LaVine would yield over that time isn't going to matter.  5 or 10 years from now if LaVine is better than Saric, that is when it matters, but right now it makes no difference and that is why it is hard to say Saric was the wrong pick.

But the point of my statement was hits and misses and the do overs.  In a do over at 10 where Payton was taken with their pick, they could have taken LaVine. LaVine who looks much better than Saric right now. And again I can't say Saric over LaVine because LaVine was gone by the Saric pick.

No.  LaVine went 13th.  Saric went 12th.  Under your analysis at 10 you are clearly wrong.  Philadelphia acquired the Philadelphia 2017 1st round pick in that trade.  That is far more valuable than any player that could have been taken at 10.  It isn't close.

And you can't really say LaVine looks much better than Saric right now because you don't know what Saric will be.  I mean LaVine isn't even starting.  Who knows what he or Saric will be.

My error on draft slot but the control over 10 is still the biggest hit point I want to stress and is again why i say Payton and not Saric. And its not if they won a trade based on future potential it is hits and misses. Especially if they did whiff twice passing LaVine . And someone can absolutely say LaVine is better than Saric right now because he is actually playing in the NBA. Again we are talking about right now and why Hinkie can be losing his power.

[MBunge]

Draft Picks

* Noel = excellent pick, top marks
* MCW = excellent pick, top marks

* Embiid = did not like, thought it was too risky injury-wise. Docs cleared him though and it was an understandable risk to take given Embiid's enormous talent.
* Saric = do not know enough about him, seems respectable. I am skeptical though. Worry about concerns about which position he can defend and questionable shooting ability. Too early to judge this pick.

* Okafor = I did not like this pick. I thought there were better talents available. Mudiay was my first choice. Porzingis I was uncertain about due to lack of info but definitely had a higher ceiling if he was a good prospect. I probably would have taken Winslow and S.Johnson ahead of Okafor as well. Just ... not a fan of this pick. I thought this was falling into consensus instead of thinking for himself and properly evaluating player and alternatives. I thought trading down and picking up an additional asset was also a fantastic option given Okafor's oversized reputation / trade value.


Main Trades

* Holiday for N.Noel and future lotto pick = excellent trade
* Turner, Hawes for 2nd rounders = meh, great commitment but lousy to watch, didn't change much either way
* E.Payton trade = excellent, got the player they rated highest and extra pick.
* Thad Young for a 1st rounder = Young wanted out, good return. Good trade.
* MCW trade = strong return getting that Lakers pick. Very good trade.
* KJ McDaniels trade = good trade. He wanted too much money and had proved too little. Inflated stats playing on lousy Sixers team. They would have had to overpay to keep him.
* Stauskas trade = good trade. Picked up a solid prospect in a cap dump.

MCW - rookie of the year, can't criticize that pick.  They then traded him away and if they don't get the LA pick this year, who knows where it will fall in the draft.
Noel + Saric - These picks have to be judged against giving up an all-star in Jrue Holiday for them.  Jury still out.
Embiid - had to take the risk.
Okafor - If they had been accumulating some decent role players the previous two years, would have been a great move to trade this pick for a solid player and a future 1st or two.  What would Boston have given up for Okafor?

Turner and Hawes - terrible move.  Basically got nothing for them and reinforced the "we don't care about winning" mindset.
Thaddeus Young - fit the plan but a terrible move.  He's only 27 and could have been an excellent veteran to pair with Noel, Okafor or Embiid.
KJ McDaniels - not significant in terms of talent on the floor but probably the single worst move made Hinkie.  Essentially gave him away only because he wouldn't sign a dirt cheap multi-year contract giving Philly multiple option years.
Stauskas - Philly is paying $9 million this year and next for Stauskas and Carl Landry.  $9 million.  There isn't anything else they could have done with that money?

Mike

[Moranis]

Wonder if the ownership is indeed losing faith due to the selections themselves and not plan. Like Embid, MCW, Saric, Okafor and Noel could have been Smart, LaVine, Giannis, Porzingis, and Noel. If 76ers hit on their picks they would be very good shape.

Embiid was a calculated risk.  Most talented prospect on the board at that time.  MCW you can question, but it was a weak draft.  Saric we don't know about.  Okafor and Noel were also the most talented prospect on the board where they were taken.  Hinkie was just staying true to his philosophy ... don't worry about actually building a team until you've got the young stars in place.

I didn't purposely pick positions but it did work that way lol. I was talking hitting where they were picking. If they had a do over based on players available when they picked it should be Smart over Embid (one could have passed on health), LaVine over Payton(LaVine had more upside IMO), Porzingis over Okafor(Porzingis looked like a better fit next to Noel), Greek freak over MCW (MCW was flawed to start with) and still take Noel.

Sure, but a GM's drafting can't be evaluated retroactively like that.  You have to assess their decision based on the information available at the time.

When you look at how the prospects they chose turned out, then you're evaluating the player's adjustment to the NBA and the team's development process, not the GM's drafting.

Well that and they didn't draft Payton, Orlando did.

76ers drafted Payton and traded him to Magic for Saric + extras.

No.  The trade was made before the pick it just couldn't be finalized until after the draft.  The Magic selected Payton, the Sixers selected Saric.  The Sixers got an extra 1st round pick and a 2nd round pick to move back 2 spots and draft the player they were going to draft anyway.

Still their pick was used for Payton. Not Saric. I have to go by what the pick was to say who they could have drafted. If I go off trade down then that changes players available. And since they indeed had the higher pick and had full control of it till draft selection then we can't say they could have only gotten players at the magic slot can we?

They originally had the 10th pick, but they didn't draft Payton.  That is what I was objecting to i.e. your statement that they drafted Payton.

And to be clear the Sixers traded the 2014 10th pick for the 2014 12th pick, Philly's 2017 1st round pick, and a 2015 2nd round pick (which they then traded for a 2020 2nd round pick, a 2021 2nd round pick, and cash).  It looks like that 2017 Philadelphia 1st they re-acquired is going to be a pretty good pick.  Thus, I'd say they clearly won that trade.  Now if you want to say that after the trade instead of Saric they should have drafted someone else (like say LaVine), I'd be happy to listen to that, though until Saric comes over it will be hard to really gauge if he was the wrong pick.  Remember, Philly was always going to be bad for a couple of years so a slight improvement that a guy like LaVine would yield over that time isn't going to matter.  5 or 10 years from now if LaVine is better than Saric, that is when it matters, but right now it makes no difference and that is why it is hard to say Saric was the wrong pick.

But the point of my statement was hits and misses and the do overs.  In a do over at 10 where Payton was taken with their pick, they could have taken LaVine. LaVine who looks much better than Saric right now. And again I can't say Saric over LaVine because LaVine was gone by the Saric pick.

No.  LaVine went 13th.  Saric went 12th.  Under your analysis at 10 you are clearly wrong.  Philadelphia acquired the Philadelphia 2017 1st round pick in that trade.  That is far more valuable than any player that could have been taken at 10.  It isn't close.

And you can't really say LaVine looks much better than Saric right now because you don't know what Saric will be.  I mean LaVine isn't even starting.  Who knows what he or Saric will be.

Conversely, you can say that LaVine is contributing now while Saric has not and could help this team to a record that is better than 1-22.

Yeah but who cares if Philly is 1-22 or 3-20.  It makes absolutely no difference.  If 10 years from now Saric is significantly better than LaVine that is what matters.  This year was always going to be a lost year, the record just doesn't matter.

[BDeCosta26]

He made the draft choices he made & the trades he did without a gun to his head.  He also chose not to bring in any sort of veteran presence to help this team....at all.  One player with more than 3 years NBA experience.   That's a joke.  All with the hopes of hitting it big in the lottery or simply trying to kick the can down the road if they don't.

To me, it seems like the legitimate criticisms you can make of Hinkie stem from his apparent lack of appreciation for intangible things -- like having at least a few high character veterans on a young team, or making sure not to sour relationships with agents while pursuing your all-out tanking scheme. 

The NBA operates on business relationships between people, and the game it is built around involves teams of people competing against one another.  If you try too hard to abstract it all into numbers, you're bound to lose some essential elements to running a successful franchise.

I think that the intangible things are the biggest criticisms and rightly so. The big problem is that Philly has been SO bad, and while they may have a decent little collection of assets (Hinkie has traded pretty well, you'd hope they had some good assets after being so bad for so long) they're not building towards anything. There's no cohesion, no grand idea for the type of team they want.

It's almost like he's playing 2k. Teams are generally bad when they go through rebuilds and that nets them a few top picks, but Hinkie has purposely traded young guys they wouldn't consider "blue-chips". He's actively avoided pursuing any decent young prospects with his trade assets or pursuing any young FA that could fit into what they're trying to do and they've drafted guys they knew wouldn't play for a while (Noel, Embiid, Saric) just to stay as bad as possible for as long as possible, leaving a roster full of d-leaguers, 2nd round picks and one or two blue chip prospects. No veteran presence at all.

But even all that isn't what made the owners turn on him. I think what made that happen is just the total lack of a "plan" that is more than just "Were gonna suck real bad and get lots of high picks, then well have superstars." With their past 3 top picks, they've taken 3 centers, none of whom really fit together. Sure, they may have been the BPA at the time but if you already have Noel, why take Okafor? If you plan on building around Noel as part of your main core, why take a plodding, post-oriented C who doesn't play good defense and can't shoot outside of 15 feet? Why not take Porzingas who's strengths match up really well with Noel's and you could build something off those two. Or Hezejonia considering you have no "core pieces" at any other position and your in need of an alpha dog? Hinkie most certainly could've traded back and maybe grabbed a guy like Winslow on top of additional assets from the trade (Say, Vonleh for instance). Then you've got a core of guys at the 3,4 and 5 you feel like you can build an actual team around.

That's why the Hinkie experiment is failing. He treated it too much like 2k, where he could just be as terrible as possible, grab a few really high picks, and build a team around that but he didn't realize that while rebuilding and getting a couple high picks you need to be building some kind of real team around them while they start developing. You gotta make draft picks based at least partly, on who you already have. You can't just throw a developing blue chip prospect or two on a team of nothing but scrubs who all have no in your franchise AT ALL. The pile of assets he's accumulated may get turned into a pretty good team somehow, but not the way Hinkie was going.

[mef730]

Sam and Jerry walk into a bar...

http://www.csnphilly.com/blog/700-level/sam-hinkie-and-jerry-colangelo-walk-bar?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo

Mike

[celticsclay]

He made the draft choices he made & the trades he did without a gun to his head.  He also chose not to bring in any sort of veteran presence to help this team....at all.  One player with more than 3 years NBA experience.   That's a joke.  All with the hopes of hitting it big in the lottery or simply trying to kick the can down the road if they don't.

To me, it seems like the legitimate criticisms you can make of Hinkie stem from his apparent lack of appreciation for intangible things -- like having at least a few high character veterans on a young team, or making sure not to sour relationships with agents while pursuing your all-out tanking scheme. 

The NBA operates on business relationships between people, and the game it is built around involves teams of people competing against one another.  If you try too hard to abstract it all into numbers, you're bound to lose some essential elements to running a successful franchise.

Thank you for saying this Phosita. This has been my biggest criticism of what has happened in Philly and it seems hard to not acknowledge it as a slight negative.

[tarheelsxxiii]

Brett Brown was rewarded with a 2-year contract extension today.

[BDeCosta26]

Brett Brown was rewarded with a 2-year contract extension today.

Good for him, I'd like to see what he could do with a team that's trying to be competitive. He's done as good a job as anyone else likely could've in his situation, and remarkably it's hard to say any of those guys have "quit" on him. They're just really bad.

Maybe they'll actually bring him in the FO, figure out what kind of system would suit him best, and build a team towards that.

[AngryAndIrritable]

There seems to be a lot of 20-20 hindsight going on with reference to the Embiid and Okafor picks. 9/10 times you pick Embiid at 3. There was general hilarity when the Lakers went for Russell instead of Okafor with their pick. Porzingis was widely and wrongly tipped as a mistake even at 4.

I don't think Philly really did a whole lot wrong in terms of their draft choices. That several of them have gone south just illustrates the folly of their 'draft or bust' MO.

[jambr380]

There seems to be a lot of 20-20 hindsight going on with reference to the Embiid and Okafor picks. 9/10 times you pick Embiid at 3. There was general hilarity when the Lakers went for Russell instead of Okafor with their pick. Porzingis was widely and wrongly tipped as a mistake even at 4.

I don't think Philly really did a whole lot wrong in terms of their draft choices. That several of them have gone south just illustrates the folly of their 'draft or bust' MO.

I don't believe Embiid was the obvious choice. After injury concerns came out, there were many saying the Ainge would be the one to take a chance on him at #6, but the Sixers instead grabbed him early. The pick in itself wasn't horrible, though - it's not as if Exum, Gordon, Smart, Randle, or Vonleh (all of the other possibilities at that slot) have killed it in the league so far.

I totally agree with you on Okafor, however. He was unanimously top 3 and up until a couple of days before the draft, it was thought the Lakers were definitely taking whoever was left at #2 between Towns and Okafor. I also think this was basically their best draft pick and best opportunity at finding a franchise player. Noel is an excellent defensive player, but needs a lot of work on the offensive end and Embiid still has a long way to show that he can even play basketball. They went with bpa and you can't fault them for that.

[tazzmaniac]

Draft Picks

* Noel = excellent pick, top marks
* MCW = excellent pick, top marks

* Embiid = did not like, thought it was too risky injury-wise. Docs cleared him though and it was an understandable risk to take given Embiid's enormous talent.
* Saric = do not know enough about him, seems respectable. I am skeptical though. Worry about concerns about which position he can defend and questionable shooting ability. Too early to judge this pick.

* Okafor = I did not like this pick. I thought there were better talents available. Mudiay was my first choice. Porzingis I was uncertain about due to lack of info but definitely had a higher ceiling if he was a good prospect. I probably would have taken Winslow and S.Johnson ahead of Okafor as well. Just ... not a fan of this pick. I thought this was falling into consensus instead of thinking for himself and properly evaluating player and alternatives. I thought trading down and picking up an additional asset was also a fantastic option given Okafor's oversized reputation / trade value.


Main Trades

* Holiday for N.Noel and future lotto pick = excellent trade
* Turner, Hawes for 2nd rounders = meh, great commitment but lousy to watch, didn't change much either way
* E.Payton trade = excellent, got the player they rated highest and extra pick.
* Thad Young for a 1st rounder = Young wanted out, good return. Good trade.
* MCW trade = strong return getting that Lakers pick. Very good trade.
* KJ McDaniels trade = good trade. He wanted too much money and had proved too little. Inflated stats playing on lousy Sixers team. They would have had to overpay to keep him.
* Stauskas trade = good trade. Picked up a solid prospect in a cap dump.

MCW - rookie of the year, can't criticize that pick.  They then traded him away and if they don't get the LA pick this year, who knows where it will fall in the draft.
Noel + Saric - These picks have to be judged against giving up an all-star in Jrue Holiday for them.  Jury still out.
Embiid - had to take the risk.
Okafor - If they had been accumulating some decent role players the previous two years, would have been a great move to trade this pick for a solid player and a future 1st or two.  What would Boston have given up for Okafor?

Turner and Hawes - terrible move.  Basically got nothing for them and reinforced the "we don't care about winning" mindset.
Thaddeus Young - fit the plan but a terrible move.  He's only 27 and could have been an excellent veteran to pair with Noel, Okafor or Embiid.
KJ McDaniels - not significant in terms of talent on the floor but probably the single worst move made Hinkie.  Essentially gave him away only because he wouldn't sign a dirt cheap multi-year contract giving Philly multiple option years.
Stauskas - Philly is paying $9 million this year and next for Stauskas and Carl Landry.  $9 million.  There isn't anything else they could have done with that money?

Mike

MCW - I will criticize the pick because Hinkie's plan is to go after potential stars.  Hinkie should have taken the risk on Giannis because I don't think MCW ever had star potential.  The trade for the Lakers pick was a good return for MCW.  Even if they don't get it this year, it is hard to see the Lakers pick being worse than late lottery next year. 
Noel + Saric + 2017 Philly 1st - You fail to include the 2017 Philly 1st that was acquired in the Orlando trade.  Getting 3 1sts for a one-time borderline all-star was great trading especially considering Holiday's injuries.  The Pels could have had Davis, Noel and Payton if they hadn't been risk adverse.   
Embiid - Agreed BPA even injured. 
Okafor - BPA even though he's not the best fit.  No indication Ainge even tried for Okafor.  Pretty clear Winslow was who he wanted. 

Turner and Hawes - Turner was about to be an RFA who had an 8.7mil qualifying offer.  No one was giving up a 1st for him so Hinkie settled for two 2nds from Indy.  Indy let Turner go for nothing.  Are you saying Hinkie should have given Turner a bigger contract than Bradley's?   
Hawes was in the final year of his contract and in all probability wasn't going to re-sign with the Sixers.  Hinkie did good to get two 2nds for him from the Cavs.  The Cavs let Hawes go for nothing.  Hawes ended up getting 4yr/23mil from the Clippers.  The terrible move would have been committing 60mil or so over 4 years to keep these two mediocre players. 
Young - Was on the last year of his contract and indications were he wasn't going to re-sign with Philly.  The Sixers ended up getting the Miami 1st for him from the T-Wolves who ended up trading him a few months later for KG.  Young ended up getting 4yr/48 from the Nets. 
McDaniels - If McDaniels is the worst move Hinkie has made then Hinkie is a great trader.   McDaniels has done nothing to deserve 3yr/10mil contract.  He hasn't even played 100 minutes total for the Rockets since the trade. 
Stauskas - Landry is only guaranteed 2+mil next year.  To be accurate Thompson was part of the trade who was subsequently flipped for Wallace.  So its more like 19mil this year and 5+mil next year.  The 19mil isn't a big deal since the Sixers have to get to the team minimum salary anyway.  In exchange, they got Stauskas (top 10 pick), possible pick swaps with the Kings in 2016 and 2017 and a Kings 1st (top 10 protected 2018, unprotected 2019).  That's a nice haul for taking on salary that doesn't hurt their options. 

[LarBrd33]

http://mweb.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25407559/report-sixers-hiring-of-colangelo-means-sam-hinkie-is-essentially-fired

Welp, that escalated quickly.

But he still gets paychecks?  Not a bad deal all things considered.

Lowe's recent article:  http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14344789/sam-hinkie-stands-as-philly-looks-jump-start-future

Hinkie has no plans to step down and he remains confident in his power. "Our owners made it very clear they want me leading us long term," Hinkie says. "Adding one more voice will make the conversation richer. Might it be challenging at times? I'm sure it will be. But making big decisions shouldn't be easy -- it shouldn't be that you have an idea, and you get to execute it without anyone questioning it."

Hinkie feels no need to apologize for the organizational teardown he spearheaded upon taking the job in spring 2013. Harris and his partners were on board with the plan before Hinkie walked in the door for his first interview. The Sixers had just lived through the hell of the Andrew Bynum trade, and they owed two future lottery-protected first-round picks -- meaning they had incentive to plunge into the lottery, and keep those picks.

Hinkie hopes he gets to see his vision through. "We've been on a path to build something special. We're planting seeds to have an orchard. Some would have us go out and buy apples. But we want to build the whole orchard."

If any of you want to step outside the echo chamber, I suggest listening to the first half of Lowe's podcast with Jeff Van Gundy:  http://m.espn.go.com/general/cast?id=10528553&src=desktop

Philly will be fine.  Most of the people on this forum simply don't understand what Philly is doing and have little interest in seeing it from the perspective of building a team through assets.  They'll make changes this Summer.  They'll take steps to putting together a real team and they have no shortage of options of how to do it.  They have one of the brightest futures of any team in this league. 

[SHAQATTACK]

http://mweb.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25407559/report-sixers-hiring-of-colangelo-means-sam-hinkie-is-essentially-fired

Welp, that escalated quickly.

But he still gets paychecks?  Not a bad deal all things considered.

Lowe's recent article:  http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14344789/sam-hinkie-stands-as-philly-looks-jump-start-future

Hinkie has no plans to step down and he remains confident in his power. "Our owners made it very clear they want me leading us long term," Hinkie says. "Adding one more voice will make the conversation richer. Might it be challenging at times? I'm sure it will be. But making big decisions shouldn't be easy -- it shouldn't be that you have an idea, and you get to execute it without anyone questioning it."

Hinkie feels no need to apologize for the organizational teardown he spearheaded upon taking the job in spring 2013. Harris and his partners were on board with the plan before Hinkie walked in the door for his first interview. The Sixers had just lived through the hell of the Andrew Bynum trade, and they owed two future lottery-protected first-round picks -- meaning they had incentive to plunge into the lottery, and keep those picks.

Hinkie hopes he gets to see his vision through. "We've been on a path to build something special. We're planting seeds to have an orchard. Some would have us go out and buy apples. But we want to build the whole orchard."

If any of you want to step outside the echo chamber, I suggest listening to the first half of Lowe's podcast with Jeff Van Gundy:  http://m.espn.go.com/general/cast?id=10528553&src=desktop

Philly will be fine.  Most of the people on this forum simply don't understand what Philly is doing and have little interest in seeing it from the perspective of building a team through assets.  They'll make changes this Summer.  They'll take steps to putting together a real team and they have no shortage of options of how to do it.  They have one of the brightest futures of any team in this league.

No they don't ......you are dreaming .......all this spinning wheels ......they may JUST as well suck worst than now or be in worse shape .....

This could very well turn out to be the biggest screw up in NBA history .

p---ing away all these years of basketball ......and in the end they may wind up barely average .

If these guys don't turn out , get injuried , GM makes won't picks ,  million things can go worn.......

To say they are a lock to be great is ..........very far fetched ......dreaming

[colincb]

...  Most of the people on this forum simply don't understand what Philly is doing...

LarBrd33 cannot comprehend that everybody understands what Philadelphia is doing.

[hwangjini_1]

...  Most of the people on this forum simply don't understand what Philly is doing...

LarBrd33 cannot comprehend that everybody understands what Philadelphia is doing.

and, seemingly, he relies upon the opinion of a man who was just demoted. hinkie is on the way out. i see no reason why we should rely upon his quotes about his position to inform us of his future with the 76ers.

76er owership had just told the world what they think of hinkie's plan to date.