Noel to the bench

[LarBrd33]

Perhaps maybe who knows I suppose. 

Here's hoping Marcus Smart does indeed develop into a better player than the superior prospects out there.  It happens from time to time.  TP Ed. 

[Eddie20]

Perhaps maybe who knows I suppose. 

Here's hoping Marcus Smart does indeed develop into a better player than the superior prospects out there.  It happens from time to time.  TP Ed.

Superior prospect, like Noel? Weren't Tyrus Thomas and Stormile Swift considered awesome prospects too? I guess that's what happens when you're tall and can jump. I'll take a Lowry type all day. You can keep your smoke and mirrors prospect and stick him on the bench.

[LarBrd33]

Perhaps maybe who knows I suppose. 

Here's hoping Marcus Smart does indeed develop into a better player than the superior prospects out there.  It happens from time to time.  TP Ed.

Superior prospect, like Noel? Weren't Tyrus Thomas and Stormile Swift considered awesome prospects too? I guess that's what happens when you're tall and can jump. I'll take a Lowry type all day. You can keep your smoke and mirrors prospect and stick him on the bench.

Yeah I appreciate your chutzpah.   Too bad fan chutzpah doesn't impact whether or not a 32% shooter develops into a better player than a supposedly "can't miss"/"smoke and mirrors" prospect like okafor. 

[Eddie20]

Perhaps maybe who knows I suppose. 

Here's hoping Marcus Smart does indeed develop into a better player than the superior prospects out there.  It happens from time to time.  TP Ed.

Superior prospect, like Noel? Weren't Tyrus Thomas and Stormile Swift considered awesome prospects too? I guess that's what happens when you're tall and can jump. I'll take a Lowry type all day. You can keep your smoke and mirrors prospect and stick him on the bench.

Yeah I appreciate your chutzpah.   Too bad fan chutzpah doesn't impact whether or not a 32% shooter develops into a better player than a supposedly "can't miss"/"smoke and mirrors" prospect like okafor.

To be clear, I like Okafor much more than Noel. Noel hasn't improved at all since he was at UK 3 years ago. The only thing he's done is gotten a little bigger.

[tazzmaniac]

I don't get the debate here.  Philly has a roster balance issue (just one of many issues).  this is a reasonable way to work around it.  We need a center.  Noel seems to want to play center.  I would be happy to give him a try for the right deal.

If Noel and Okafor can't play together, that's a problem when you spent lottery picks on both of them.  And if they can't play together, neither will likely be able to play with their other lottery pick, Embiid, if he ever gets healthy.  That's a problem.

And by moving Noel to the bench, not only is Philly telling other GMs that Okafor and Noel can't coexist, they're telling Noel that he's second banana to Okafor.  So they simultaneously hurt Noel's trade value and gave him extra incentive to seek greener pastures.

And the is being done in a year when Philly still isn't trying to win games.

This whole thing is turning into an interesting test of psychology.  Some people absolutely fell in love with what Hinkie is doing as the ultimate example of analytic-type thinking vs. traditional sports philosophies.  And since they think it's a really smart thing, they also assume Hinkie is a really smart guy.  So then everything Hinkie does gets excused and defended and rationalized because a smart guy wouldn't do anything stupid, would he?

Mike

What did Hinkie do that was stupid?

If you count the trade that netted them Noel as the start, Hinkie is now well into year three of his plan and Philly is the worst team in the league by far.

1.  He's had three lottery picks and picked three guys who all play the same position.

2.  He's aggressively stripped the team of any talent outside those three picks and the rights to Saric.

3.  He's done nothing with huge amounts of cap space.

4.  He's creating a terrible reputation around the league.

Other than that, he's a genius!

Frankly, the huge number of other teams in the East that were also horrible have served as a sort of camouflage for Hinkie.  It seems as though he's no longer going to be able to hide.

Mike

1. Noel was acquired via a great draft day trade.  Hinkie's 1st official lottery pick was MCW at #11 in the same draft.  Embiid, even with his injury, and Okafor were the best players available and both have star potential.  Taking the best player available regardless of position is the best draft strategy.  You can always trade young talent. 

2. Hinkie's strategy is to bottom out for multiple seasons so of course he got rid of unwanted talent.  However he got a very good return for that talent.     

Jrue Holliday ->  Noel + Saric + Philly 2017      (via two good trades)
Thad Young ->  Miami 1st           
MCW ->   Lakers 1st 

3.  Hinkie did use their available salary cap in a couple short-term salary dump trades to acquire the OKC 1st and the 2018 Sacramento 1st.  He didn't take on any bad deals so the Sixer's have lots of available cap space next off season. 

4.  At this point in their rebuild process, reputation doesn't matter much.  If Hinkie's strategy produces a star or two to build around, their reputation will change quickly. 

You may not like his strategy of going all in to get star(s) to rebuild around but the moves Hinkie has made so far are consistent with that strategy. 

[tarheelsxxiii]

Perhaps maybe who knows I suppose. 

Here's hoping Marcus Smart does indeed develop into a better player than the superior prospects out there.  It happens from time to time.  TP Ed.

Superior prospect, like Noel? Weren't Tyrus Thomas and Stormile Swift considered awesome prospects too? I guess that's what happens when you're tall and can jump. I'll take a Lowry type all day. You can keep your smoke and mirrors prospect and stick him on the bench.

Yeah I appreciate your chutzpah.   Too bad fan chutzpah doesn't impact whether or not a 32% shooter develops into a better player than a supposedly "can't miss"/"smoke and mirrors" prospect like okafor.

To be clear, I like Okafor much more than Noel. Noel hasn't improved at all since he was at UK 3 years ago. The only thing he's done is gotten a little bigger.

So his improvement has been mildly superior to Smart's since college?

[Celtics18]

Marcus Smart and Nerlens Noel are both two of the top young prospects in the league.  I'd love to see Nerlens become a member of the Celtics and grow alongside Marcus Smart into one of the best perimeter/interior defensive duos in the league. 

[SHAQATTACK]

When does Noel s rookie contract expire.....?

[tazzmaniac]

When does Noel s rookie contract expire.....?

He's in his 3rd year so he'll be an RFA the season after next. 

[MBunge]

I don't get the debate here.  Philly has a roster balance issue (just one of many issues).  this is a reasonable way to work around it.  We need a center.  Noel seems to want to play center.  I would be happy to give him a try for the right deal.

If Noel and Okafor can't play together, that's a problem when you spent lottery picks on both of them.  And if they can't play together, neither will likely be able to play with their other lottery pick, Embiid, if he ever gets healthy.  That's a problem.

And by moving Noel to the bench, not only is Philly telling other GMs that Okafor and Noel can't coexist, they're telling Noel that he's second banana to Okafor.  So they simultaneously hurt Noel's trade value and gave him extra incentive to seek greener pastures.

And the is being done in a year when Philly still isn't trying to win games.

This whole thing is turning into an interesting test of psychology.  Some people absolutely fell in love with what Hinkie is doing as the ultimate example of analytic-type thinking vs. traditional sports philosophies.  And since they think it's a really smart thing, they also assume Hinkie is a really smart guy.  So then everything Hinkie does gets excused and defended and rationalized because a smart guy wouldn't do anything stupid, would he?

Mike

What did Hinkie do that was stupid?

If you count the trade that netted them Noel as the start, Hinkie is now well into year three of his plan and Philly is the worst team in the league by far.

1.  He's had three lottery picks and picked three guys who all play the same position.

2.  He's aggressively stripped the team of any talent outside those three picks and the rights to Saric.

3.  He's done nothing with huge amounts of cap space.

4.  He's creating a terrible reputation around the league.

Other than that, he's a genius!

Frankly, the huge number of other teams in the East that were also horrible have served as a sort of camouflage for Hinkie.  It seems as though he's no longer going to be able to hide.

Mike

1. Noel was acquired via a great draft day trade.  Hinkie's 1st official lottery pick was MCW at #11 in the same draft.  Embiid, even with his injury, and Okafor were the best players available and both have star potential.  Taking the best player available regardless of position is the best draft strategy.  You can always trade young talent. 

2. Hinkie's strategy is to bottom out for multiple seasons so of course he got rid of unwanted talent.  However he got a very good return for that talent.     

Jrue Holliday ->  Noel + Saric + Philly 2017      (via two good trades)
Thad Young ->  Miami 1st           
MCW ->   Lakers 1st 

3.  Hinkie did use their available salary cap in a couple short-term salary dump trades to acquire the OKC 1st and the 2018 Sacramento 1st.  He didn't take on any bad deals so the Sixer's have lots of available cap space next off season. 

4.  At this point in their rebuild process, reputation doesn't matter much.  If Hinkie's strategy produces a star or two to build around, their reputation will change quickly. 

You may not like his strategy of going all in to get star(s) to rebuild around but the moves Hinkie has made so far are consistent with that strategy.

That a strategy exists does not make it a good one.  To date, after three drafts, three off seasons and two regular seasons, the 76ers are not just worse than they were when Hinkie started, they're the worst team in the league and will soon be within spitting distance of worst team in NBA history.  And for all that sucking, they've only got one true franchise LeBron/Durant/Duncan/Shaq player and he's had huge injury issues and by the start of next season will have not played competitive basketball in about 2 1/2 years.

Having a few extra first in the late teens or 20s is going to do NOTHING about that.

EVERYONE is going to have cap space, thanks to the new TV deal.

He's DESTROYING a promising coach by saddling him with so many losses that no player will be able to take him seriously.

The Lakers pick this year is top 3 protected and the Lakers are doing everything they can to make sure Philly doesn't get it.

Now, if Philly gets lucky in the next draft and grabs a top 3 pick themselves and then the Lakers pick at 4 or 5, that could dramatically improve their position.  But if you are starting the FOURTH FREAKING YEAR of your rebuilding process and THE ENTIRE THING STILL COMPLETELY HINGES ON LUCK, I think that suggests your strategy is somewhat lacking.

Mike

[ssspence]

Perhaps maybe who knows I suppose. 

Here's hoping Marcus Smart does indeed develop into a better player than the superior prospects out there.  It happens from time to time.  TP Ed.

Superior prospect, like Noel? Weren't Tyrus Thomas and Stormile Swift considered awesome prospects too? I guess that's what happens when you're tall and can jump. I'll take a Lowry type all day. You can keep your smoke and mirrors prospect and stick him on the bench.

Noel's not a prospect. He's already a far better player than Thomas and Swift ever were. You're overlooking how good he's been over the past full season or so because he's not an offensive-minded player.

I believe strongly that his face up game from 12-15 is going to get much better. If it does, he and JO are going to give us a lot of trouble in the coming seasons.

[Big333223]

It's interesting to me that the same people that give credit to Ainge for compiling assetts as he has are so down on Hinkie, who has more assetts than the Celtics (or anyone else) have right now. I just don't understand how a stable of Noel, Okafor, Saric overseas, a top 3 pick coming this year, a high pick from the Lakers (eventually) coming, and probable young rotation guys like Grant and Stauskas, along with all of the other picks they have to make deals and even the possibility of Embiid contributing something at some point... means that this was all a failure before the process has ended.

It's seems silly to me.

[LarBrd33]

It's interesting to me that the same people that give credit to Ainge for compiling assetts as he has are so down on Hinkie, who has more assetts than the Celtics (or anyone else) have right now. I just don't understand how a stable of Noel, Okafor, Saric overseas, a top 3 pick coming this year, a high pick from the Lakers (eventually) coming, and probable young rotation guys like Grant and Stauskas, along with all of the other picks they have to make deals and even the possibility of Embiid contributing something at some point... means that this was all a failure before the process has ended.

It's seems silly to me.

Mostly because some fans here take praise of Philly's process as an attack on the Celtics. 

What Ainge is doing is pretty interesting as well.  If they get lucky in this upcoming draft, it could be special.   The thing about Philly is... if I were a GM candidate looking for a job, that Philly job would be mighty appealing.  Buttloads of assets, unlimited cap space, low expectations...  It would not be hard for a smart GM to make that team competitive in the next couple years.  Okafor alone would net you a large package of contributors.   That's the thing that irks Celtic fans... when you start speaking in Celtic language and say things like "Avery Bradley, Jared Sullinger, Evan Turner and a late 1st rounder probably isn't enough for Philly to trade Okafor", fans around here naturally get defensive.   

The thing with Noel is, myself and a few others have been vocal in saying he's a superior prospect to Smart so you have people like Ed who go out of their way to create threads like this dumping on Noel.  The reason I keep bringing up Smart is because he's probably the only prospect on this team worth any salt.  He's obviously our best asset... he's by default the one every prospect around the league gets compared to.    When speaking to Celtic fans, Smart is the barometer for "great prospect"...  He's the only guy on the team who could theoretically have star potential.   Fans need to stop taking the Smart comparisons as an insult to Smart.   If we had a better prospect, you'd see him being used in comparisons instead.  Back in the day, we compared every prospect to Big Al.   It wasn't an insult to Big Al... we loved Big Al.  Same thing.

[Robb]

Back in the day, we compared every prospect to Big Al.   It wasn't an insult to Big Al... we loved Big Al.  Same thing.

Marcus Smart is not nearly as good of a prospect as Big Al

*Celticsblog Forum folds in on itself in solid mass of Taekz Singularity*

[LarBrd33]

Back in the day, we compared every prospect to Big Al.   It wasn't an insult to Big Al... we loved Big Al.  Same thing.

Marcus Smart is not nearly as good of a prospect as Big Al

*Celticsblog Forum folds in on itself in solid mass of Taekz Singularity*

At the point we traded Big Al, he was averaging 16 points, 11 rebounds, 1.3 assists, 1.5 blocks on 51% shooting and he had just turned 22 years old.

Compare that to the currently injured Marcus Smart:  9.8 points, 3.8 rebounds, 3.2 asissts, 1.8 steals with 33%/24%/69% shooting

... There's no question that Big Al is a better prospect... no question.   Prospect Big Al looks like he's going to be a perennial all-star... a lock to be a 20 and 10 player long-term... I wouldn't be shocked to see prospect Big Al develop into a 30 point, 13 rebound, 2.5 block star... Dude looks like he's going to be the next Moses Malone... he might keep this up until he's 40. 

Still, I'd trade Prospect Big Al for Prospect Dwight Howard.  I know that's controversial around here, but Prospect Dwight is averaging 17.6 points, 12.3 rebounds, 1.9 assists and 1.9 blocks with 60% shooting and he's younger than Prospect Big Al.  Al's got the post moves, but Dwight is already an elite defender.  Prospect Dwight looks like the kind of guy you could build a contender around.  Wouldn't be shocked to see him playing in the finals in the next few years.