Noel to the bench

[MBunge]

This could be the dumbest thing Philly's done yet, unless they hope separating him and Okafor will make Noel look better and entice bigger trade offers.

If he's hurt, just sit him down.  But you don't take 50% of your entire haul for tanking the last two seasons and put him on the bench, especially when you've committed yourselves to not caring about winning again this season.

Mike

[LarBrd33]

Well they didn't bench him... And even when they were supposedly preparing to bench him, he was expected to see the same minutes.   

Noel and okafor are probably a bad fit together and I assume they will trade one eventually.  The Smart for Noel thing is interesting.  I still value dominant big man defense over dominant guard defense.   Neither is offensively inclined.   I'm not sure Smart would be enough to get Noel but maybe it would be close. 

[LarBrd33]

Btw, Noel actually DID end up starting last night despite the rumor.   He had a pretty poor game and was limited to 23 minutes, though.  Sounds like he's dealing with knee pain and will miss his next game:

Nerlens Noel has been dealing with "some knee problems with some tendinitis," according to Sixers coach Brett Brown.

It actually wasn't a rumor, as Coach Brown was the one that said he wasn't starting . Things changed when the Pacers decided to go big and start Lavoy Allen. Kind of says something when you're now an option to being pulled in and out of the starting lineup based on matchups.

Eddie do you genuinely hate Noel or do you just publicly dislike him because you know I'm a fan of his potential ?

Contemplating having him come off the bench for match up reasons says about as much about Noel as it does about arguably our best player, Isaiah Thomas.   It says more about the makeup of that team right now.  Okafor and Noel are clearly the two best players there right now. It probably makes sense to have at least one of them on the court at all times... If that means staggering their minutes a bit, so be it.

[celticsclay]

Btw, Noel actually DID end up starting last night despite the rumor.   He had a pretty poor game and was limited to 23 minutes, though.  Sounds like he's dealing with knee pain and will miss his next game:

Nerlens Noel has been dealing with "some knee problems with some tendinitis," according to Sixers coach Brett Brown.

It actually wasn't a rumor, as Coach Brown was the one that said he wasn't starting . Things changed when the Pacers decided to go big and start Lavoy Allen. Kind of says something when you're now an option to being pulled in and out of the starting lineup based on matchups.

Eddie do you genuinely hate Noel or do you just publicly dislike him because you know I'm a fan of his potential ?

Contemplating having him come off the bench for match up reasons says about as much about Noel as it does about arguably our best player, Isaiah Thomas.   It says more about the makeup of that team right now.  Okafor and Noel are clearly the two best players there right now. It probably makes sense to have at least one of them on the court at all times... If that means staggering their minutes a bit, so be it.

Are you guys rivals?

[snively]

Btw, Noel actually DID end up starting last night despite the rumor.   He had a pretty poor game and was limited to 23 minutes, though.  Sounds like he's dealing with knee pain and will miss his next game:

Nerlens Noel has been dealing with "some knee problems with some tendinitis," according to Sixers coach Brett Brown.

It actually wasn't a rumor, as Coach Brown was the one that said he wasn't starting . Things changed when the Pacers decided to go big and start Lavoy Allen. Kind of says something when you're now an option to being pulled in and out of the starting lineup based on matchups.

He didn't just have a poor game, he was atrocious. Allen and J Hill were dominating him on the boards and he air balled a top of the key midrange jumper so bad that it was not only wide  left, but also short. I actually saw the first half (disclaimer: draft kings) and not simply going off of a box score that has him finishing with 3 pts and 2 reb in 24 minutes.


Hill vs Noel

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i8nTGBTGNtk

Total disservice to Noel playing him as a retch 4 (I see what I did there). And to make room for an inferior prospect in Okafor (IMHO).

Hate what Philly is doing to their own team and their own prospects. Year 3 of a mega-tank and they can't/won't put a watchable product on the floor.

I'd be offering a Smart/Mickey package for Noel about now.

I would trade neither Smart nor the 2016 Nets pick for Noel.  Which means it'd probably be a non-starter.

I think I might offer something like Rozier, Hunter, the 2016 Mavs pick and the 2018 Nets pick for Noel.

Smart, Noel, and the 2016 Nets pick as the primary building blocks for the future.  That'd be my goal, if I were going after Noel.

Why not Smart? Obviously it's preferable to keep him to pair with Noel, but don't you view Noel as the superior talent (and the superior piece for our roster)?

I think it's easier to work around Noel's offensive limitations as a quick 5 than Smart's as a PG, and his potential defensive impact is greater.

We're going to need somebody like Noel if we want to make the leap. And I don't think the 2016 class has anyone like him.

Losing a rock-solid prospect like Smart hurts, but I'm much more optimistic about Danny finding a good guard replacement through trade or later picks (Dallas, our own, maybe Rozier) than solving our big man problem through the same avenues.

AND there's the added benefit of boosting Philly with an anti-tank asset like Smart while improving our own draft position with the still raw Noel.

[celticsclay]

Btw, Noel actually DID end up starting last night despite the rumor.   He had a pretty poor game and was limited to 23 minutes, though.  Sounds like he's dealing with knee pain and will miss his next game:

Nerlens Noel has been dealing with "some knee problems with some tendinitis," according to Sixers coach Brett Brown.

It actually wasn't a rumor, as Coach Brown was the one that said he wasn't starting . Things changed when the Pacers decided to go big and start Lavoy Allen. Kind of says something when you're now an option to being pulled in and out of the starting lineup based on matchups.

He didn't just have a poor game, he was atrocious. Allen and J Hill were dominating him on the boards and he air balled a top of the key midrange jumper so bad that it was not only wide  left, but also short. I actually saw the first half (disclaimer: draft kings) and not simply going off of a box score that has him finishing with 3 pts and 2 reb in 24 minutes.


Hill vs Noel

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i8nTGBTGNtk

Total disservice to Noel playing him as a retch 4 (I see what I did there). And to make room for an inferior prospect in Okafor (IMHO).

Hate what Philly is doing to their own team and their own prospects. Year 3 of a mega-tank and they can't/won't put a watchable product on the floor.

I'd be offering a Smart/Mickey package for Noel about now.

I would trade neither Smart nor the 2016 Nets pick for Noel.  Which means it'd probably be a non-starter.

I think I might offer something like Rozier, Hunter, the 2016 Mavs pick and the 2018 Nets pick for Noel.

Smart, Noel, and the 2016 Nets pick as the primary building blocks for the future.  That'd be my goal, if I were going after Noel.

Why not Smart? Obviously it's preferable to keep him to pair with Noel, but don't you view Noel as the superior talent (and the superior piece for our roster)?

I think it's easier to work around Noel's offensive limitations as a quick 5 than Smart's as a PG, and his potential defensive impact is greater.

We're going to need somebody like Noel if we want to make the leap. And I don't think the 2016 class has anyone like him.

Losing a rock-solid prospect like Smart hurts, but I'm much more optimistic about Danny finding a good guard replacement through trade or later picks (Dallas, our own, maybe Rozier) than solving our big man problem through the same avenues.

AND there's the added benefit of boosting Philly with an anti-tank asset like Smart while improving our own draft position with the still raw Noel.

Say what? Under this trade we are somehow threatening the 76ers for lottery position?

[PhoSita]

Why not Smart? Obviously it's preferable to keep him to pair with Noel, but don't you view Noel as the superior talent (and the superior piece for our roster)?

I think Noel is a superior talent, but only because he's a big man rather than a guard.

I don't see him as an enough of an upgrade to make it worth giving up Smart.  That turns it into a mostly lateral move, at best, and Smart could end up a better player (especially if Noel's knee issues become a chronic thing).

Long term, best case scenario, I think they're both mostly-defense complementary pieces to offensive stars elsewhere in a quality starting lineup.  This is why I compared Smart to Draymond Green the other day.  Players who can make a big impact in many facets of the game, but not scoring; they have the talent to punish teams if they are playing off dangerous offensive players like Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson, but expect them to carry a load themselves and they will struggle mightily.

Acquiring both Smart and Noel as building pieces to go with the Nets pick would be great.  Giving up one to get the other does not seem worth it to me.

[snively]

Btw, Noel actually DID end up starting last night despite the rumor.   He had a pretty poor game and was limited to 23 minutes, though.  Sounds like he's dealing with knee pain and will miss his next game:

Nerlens Noel has been dealing with "some knee problems with some tendinitis," according to Sixers coach Brett Brown.

It actually wasn't a rumor, as Coach Brown was the one that said he wasn't starting . Things changed when the Pacers decided to go big and start Lavoy Allen. Kind of says something when you're now an option to being pulled in and out of the starting lineup based on matchups.

He didn't just have a poor game, he was atrocious. Allen and J Hill were dominating him on the boards and he air balled a top of the key midrange jumper so bad that it was not only wide  left, but also short. I actually saw the first half (disclaimer: draft kings) and not simply going off of a box score that has him finishing with 3 pts and 2 reb in 24 minutes.


Hill vs Noel

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i8nTGBTGNtk

Total disservice to Noel playing him as a retch 4 (I see what I did there). And to make room for an inferior prospect in Okafor (IMHO).

Hate what Philly is doing to their own team and their own prospects. Year 3 of a mega-tank and they can't/won't put a watchable product on the floor.

I'd be offering a Smart/Mickey package for Noel about now.

I would trade neither Smart nor the 2016 Nets pick for Noel.  Which means it'd probably be a non-starter.

I think I might offer something like Rozier, Hunter, the 2016 Mavs pick and the 2018 Nets pick for Noel.

Smart, Noel, and the 2016 Nets pick as the primary building blocks for the future.  That'd be my goal, if I were going after Noel.

Why not Smart? Obviously it's preferable to keep him to pair with Noel, but don't you view Noel as the superior talent (and the superior piece for our roster)?

I think it's easier to work around Noel's offensive limitations as a quick 5 than Smart's as a PG, and his potential defensive impact is greater.

We're going to need somebody like Noel if we want to make the leap. And I don't think the 2016 class has anyone like him.

Losing a rock-solid prospect like Smart hurts, but I'm much more optimistic about Danny finding a good guard replacement through trade or later picks (Dallas, our own, maybe Rozier) than solving our big man problem through the same avenues.

AND there's the added benefit of boosting Philly with an anti-tank asset like Smart while improving our own draft position with the still raw Noel.

Say what? Under this trade we are somehow threatening the 76ers for lottery position?

Not us - our outsource tank division.  Our own disimprovement could move us into the late lotto range.

[Eddie20]

Btw, Noel actually DID end up starting last night despite the rumor.   He had a pretty poor game and was limited to 23 minutes, though.  Sounds like he's dealing with knee pain and will miss his next game:

Nerlens Noel has been dealing with "some knee problems with some tendinitis," according to Sixers coach Brett Brown.

It actually wasn't a rumor, as Coach Brown was the one that said he wasn't starting . Things changed when the Pacers decided to go big and start Lavoy Allen. Kind of says something when you're now an option to being pulled in and out of the starting lineup based on matchups.

Eddie do you genuinely hate Noel or do you just publicly dislike him because you know I'm a fan of his potential ?

Contemplating having him come off the bench for match up reasons says about as much about Noel as it does about arguably our best player, Isaiah Thomas.   It says more about the makeup of that team right now.  Okafor and Noel are clearly the two best players there right now. It probably makes sense to have at least one of them on the court at all times... If that means staggering their minutes a bit, so be it.

I don't hate him at all. However, I do think he's just as bad offensively as he is good defensively. So I balk when I hear you say things like "franchise player", especially with the importance of spacing in today's NBA. I can easily see a team taking him out completely by just going small. Noel has no ability to take advantage of the smaller player on the inside and would be of little use defending the player on the perimeter. Just look at what Golden St did to Mozgov and compared to Noel he's 85-86 McHale.

Your Thomas comaprison is a poor one. We are actuallty trying to win games so having him come off the bench to maximize production is a postive. On the other hand, the Sixers are a wasteland so why not just put these 2 "future stars" together and have them take their lumps?

[LarBrd33]

Btw, Noel actually DID end up starting last night despite the rumor.   He had a pretty poor game and was limited to 23 minutes, though.  Sounds like he's dealing with knee pain and will miss his next game:

Nerlens Noel has been dealing with "some knee problems with some tendinitis," according to Sixers coach Brett Brown.

It actually wasn't a rumor, as Coach Brown was the one that said he wasn't starting . Things changed when the Pacers decided to go big and start Lavoy Allen. Kind of says something when you're now an option to being pulled in and out of the starting lineup based on matchups.

Eddie do you genuinely hate Noel or do you just publicly dislike him because you know I'm a fan of his potential ?

Contemplating having him come off the bench for match up reasons says about as much about Noel as it does about arguably our best player, Isaiah Thomas.   It says more about the makeup of that team right now.  Okafor and Noel are clearly the two best players there right now. It probably makes sense to have at least one of them on the court at all times... If that means staggering their minutes a bit, so be it.

I don't hate him at all. However, I do think he's just as bad offensively as he is good defensively. So I balk when I hear you say things like "franchise player", especially with the importance of spacing in today's NBA. I can easily see a team taking him out completely by just going small. Noel has no ability to take advantage of the smaller player on the inside and would be of little use defending the player on the perimeter. Just look at what Golden St did to Mozgov and compared to Noel he's 85-86 McHale.

Your Thomas comaprison is a poor one. We are actuallty trying to win games so having him come off the bench to maximize production is a postive. On the other hand, the Sixers are a wasteland so why not just put these 2 "future stars" together and have them take their lumps?

You trade Marcus Smart for Nerlens NOel for the same reason you'd trade Tony Allen in his prime for Ben Wallace in his prime:  Basketball.

To answer your second question... they did play them together.  Noel has started every game this season including this one they were contemplating having him come off the bench for.   But if you had only two guys who could play basketball, wouldn't it make sense to stagger their minutes?  You can't play them 48 minutes a night.  If you exclusively played them at the same time, you're leaving roughly 15 minutes per game when neither is on the court.  That's more than 1/4th of the entire game.   Thomas comparison is on point.   Your intention with this thread was to discredit Noel based on the premise he was being benched.  Thomas is more of a bench warmer than Noel.  He started only 1 of his 67 games last year and has come off the bench three times this year.   

[ssspence]

Would something like KO, Rozier, and the 2017 Celtics pick (with swap capabilities with Brooklyn) work for Noel? KO would seemingly be a much better fit offensively with Okafor, and his improving defense would also suggest it's a much better fit, too.

C'mon now.... this is a homer offer.

[Eddie20]

Btw, Noel actually DID end up starting last night despite the rumor.   He had a pretty poor game and was limited to 23 minutes, though.  Sounds like he's dealing with knee pain and will miss his next game:

Nerlens Noel has been dealing with "some knee problems with some tendinitis," according to Sixers coach Brett Brown.

It actually wasn't a rumor, as Coach Brown was the one that said he wasn't starting . Things changed when the Pacers decided to go big and start Lavoy Allen. Kind of says something when you're now an option to being pulled in and out of the starting lineup based on matchups.

Eddie do you genuinely hate Noel or do you just publicly dislike him because you know I'm a fan of his potential ?

Contemplating having him come off the bench for match up reasons says about as much about Noel as it does about arguably our best player, Isaiah Thomas.   It says more about the makeup of that team right now.  Okafor and Noel are clearly the two best players there right now. It probably makes sense to have at least one of them on the court at all times... If that means staggering their minutes a bit, so be it.

I don't hate him at all. However, I do think he's just as bad offensively as he is good defensively. So I balk when I hear you say things like "franchise player", especially with the importance of spacing in today's NBA. I can easily see a team taking him out completely by just going small. Noel has no ability to take advantage of the smaller player on the inside and would be of little use defending the player on the perimeter. Just look at what Golden St did to Mozgov and compared to Noel he's 85-86 McHale.

Your Thomas comaprison is a poor one. We are actuallty trying to win games so having him come off the bench to maximize production is a postive. On the other hand, the Sixers are a wasteland so why not just put these 2 "future stars" together and have them take their lumps?

You trade Marcus Smart for Nerlens NOel for the same reason you'd trade Tony Allen in his prime for Ben Wallace in his prime:  Basketball.

To answer your second question... they did play them together.  Noel has started every game this season including this one they were contemplating having him come off the bench for.   But if you had only two guys who could play basketball, wouldn't it make sense to stagger their minutes?  You can't play them 48 minutes a night.  If you exclusively played them at the same time, you're leaving roughly 15 minutes per game when neither is on the court.  That's more than 1/4th of the entire game.   Thomas comparison is on point.   Your intention with this thread was to discredit Noel based on the premise he was being benched.  Thomas is more of a bench warmer than Noel.  He started only 1 of his 67 games last year and has come off the bench three times this year.

I wouldn't trade Smart for Noel at all. When is the last time Noel has even played in a meaningful game? Senior year in high school? Smart is a clutch performer, who steps up in big games, and has played in important games both in college and in the pros.

Thomas a bench warmer? Utterly laughable.

[oldtype]

Smart for Noel straight swap makes a lot of sense for both teams imo.

[saltlover]

Smart for Noel straight swap makes a lot of sense for both teams imo.

I strongly disagree.  On a pure contractual level, if nothing else, Smart is more valuable.

[LarBrd33]

Smart for Noel straight swap makes a lot of sense for both teams imo.

I strongly disagree.  On a pure contractual level, if nothing else, Smart is more valuable.

You strongly disagree?

Smart and Noel are basically the exact same age with the exact same NBA experience.  Smart may be a little more polished, because he played more College ball.  Neither is performing particularly well this year.  Both are defensively brilliant prospects.   Both are pretty weak offensively.

Smart:  10.1 points, 4 rebounds, 3.1 assists, 1.9 steals with 33%/24%/67% shooting
Noel:  10.6 points, 8.8 rebounds, 1.4 assists, 1.2 blocks, 1.6 steals, 40%/62% shooting

I'm not dismissing Smart's potential.  You can't dismiss Noel's potential either.  You can't make excuses for Smart's bad offense while at the same time pretend that NOel's bad offense is permanent. 

And I'm sorry, but if you don't understand the difference between a defensive guard and a defensive big, you probably don't get basketball.   Tony Allen was an All-NBA 1st Team defender... and on his best day he didn't make the same impact Omer Asik made in his peak Rockets season.  You could never build a defense around Allen.  A team built a defense around Asik.   Noel has already proven he can be a defensive anchor.  The team had a top 12 defense last year.  Over the second half of the year, they had the best defense in the league in minutes Noel played.  This season is a small sample size, so look at how both performed after the all-star break last year:

Noel:  13.1 points, 10 rebounds, 1.9 assists, 2.3 blocks, 2.1 steals, 49%/66%
Smart:  9.1 points, 3.8 rebounds, 2.6 assists, 0.4 blocks, 1.9 steals, 37%/32%/63%

I see Smart as this team's best asset (even more so than the Brooklyn pick), but I trade Smart for Noel without blinking.   I'd throw in another 1st without blinking (though I'd probably protect it for the lotto).  I love Smart and there's a chance he breaks out at any moment and turns into Russell Westbrook, but I try not to let blind faith in those that wear Celtic green influence how I see player trade value.  I'm not seeing the argument for Smart as a better prospect than Noel.