You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.

[D.o.s.]

If the Celtics outperform expectations, then depth will be a big reason why.

I think CBS is the reason why, guys play hard for him.

Injuries, addition by subtraction, and clearly defined roles were major contributors to our success last year.   I've never seen a successful team play 12 guys a night.   Right now we have some pretty major log jams that will need to be cleared up...  until then, you might struggle with inconsistency as redundant talent like Zeller, Amir, Sully, Lee, Oly and Jerebko (and maybe even Mickey) all scramble for a taste of minutes.

For most of the season Stevens stuck to a 10 man rotation (this is at least how I remember it). I think it's less likely Stevens tries to play 12 guys to start the season. I expect him to pick 10 and have that be the rotation out of the gate, while telling the guys who aren't playing to stay ready.

Stevens was able to keep everyone engaged last year, and everyone eventually got a chance to play. I think we will need to see this skill again this year.

That, I thought, was really impressive.  The team was miserable - 19-31 at one point - but there were few clunkers.  The team did scrap.  But they also weren't really able to turn that corner until some of the clutter was cleaned out.

I am concerned about that this year.  Not only is there a glut along the front line, but almost all of those players are playing for contracts.  One player (David Lee) demanded a trade from the defending champions because he wants to have a good individual season so he can make one last run at a big contract.  I am worried that if they don't get the playing time they believe they are warranted to, there could be some unhappy campers which hopefully doesn't have a collective effect on the rest of the morale of the team.

Stating that Lee demanded a trade from Golden State isn't really the right way to frame that situation, as far as I know. The team has never paid the luxury tax penalty under Lacob, and wasn't intending to start now.

[LHR]

That might have been an extreme word but didn't his camp make it pretty clear to the Warriors of his situation?

[D.o.s.]

That might have been an extreme word but didn't his camp make it pretty clear to the Warriors of his situation?

Oh, definitely. As far as I know, which isn't far, they (the team and his agent) were working together to find the best fit for Lee in terms of playing time while still skirting the tax threshold. Boston managed to fit both needs while still agreeing to the trade. No idea what other teams were on either shortlist, though.

[LHR]

Right, he was never publically on record but he did want to be moved somewhere he could play and make one last run at getting another contract.  He was a good soldier last year, on a title team, and knowing that the Warriors would do what he felt was the right thing.  And the feeling was mutual on GS part with his salary situation.  Thanks DOS.  -LHR

[Evantime34]

If the Celtics outperform expectations, then depth will be a big reason why.

I think CBS is the reason why, guys play hard for him.

Injuries, addition by subtraction, and clearly defined roles were major contributors to our success last year.   I've never seen a successful team play 12 guys a night.   Right now we have some pretty major log jams that will need to be cleared up...  until then, you might struggle with inconsistency as redundant talent like Zeller, Amir, Sully, Lee, Oly and Jerebko (and maybe even Mickey) all scramble for a taste of minutes.

For most of the season Stevens stuck to a 10 man rotation (this is at least how I remember it). I think it's less likely Stevens tries to play 12 guys to start the season. I expect him to pick 10 and have that be the rotation out of the gate, while telling the guys who aren't playing to stay ready.

Stevens was able to keep everyone engaged last year, and everyone eventually got a chance to play. I think we will need to see this skill again this year.

That, I thought, was really impressive.  The team was miserable - 19-31 at one point - but there were few clunkers.  The team did scrap.  But they also weren't really able to turn that corner until some of the clutter was cleaned out.

I am concerned about that this year.  Not only is there a glut along the front line, but almost all of those players are playing for contracts.  One player (David Lee) demanded a trade from the defending champions because he wants to have a good individual season so he can make one last run at a big contract.  I am worried that if they don't get the playing time they believe they are warranted to, there could be some unhappy campers which hopefully doesn't have a collective effect on the rest of the morale of the team.

I could see Lee coming off the bench and being fine with 28-30 minutes paired with Thomas. 28-30 minutes a game is still 10-12 more minutes a game than he averaged last year so I think having him off the bench could be a solution.

It would clearly be better for the current performance of the team to have established roles for each player on the team. However, I think having an extremely deep roster with more tradable pieces is much better for the long term health of the team. I am willing to sacrifice a few games during this season, if it means that the C's get an extra first round pick by dealing one of their bigs.

In the end Danny is clearly looking to create as much depth as possible so he can make a blockbuster move and still have a deep team. I don't see that blockbuster happening this year, but I think collecting assets to trade them for future assets is the best path for the team long term (even if it means a couple more losses this year).

I think Jerebko and one of Olynyk/Zeller will barely play at all to start the season but eventually end up in the rotation if they aren't dealt.

[LHR]

If the Celtics outperform expectations, then depth will be a big reason why.

I think CBS is the reason why, guys play hard for him.

Injuries, addition by subtraction, and clearly defined roles were major contributors to our success last year.   I've never seen a successful team play 12 guys a night.   Right now we have some pretty major log jams that will need to be cleared up...  until then, you might struggle with inconsistency as redundant talent like Zeller, Amir, Sully, Lee, Oly and Jerebko (and maybe even Mickey) all scramble for a taste of minutes.

For most of the season Stevens stuck to a 10 man rotation (this is at least how I remember it). I think it's less likely Stevens tries to play 12 guys to start the season. I expect him to pick 10 and have that be the rotation out of the gate, while telling the guys who aren't playing to stay ready.

Stevens was able to keep everyone engaged last year, and everyone eventually got a chance to play. I think we will need to see this skill again this year.

That, I thought, was really impressive.  The team was miserable - 19-31 at one point - but there were few clunkers.  The team did scrap.  But they also weren't really able to turn that corner until some of the clutter was cleaned out.

I am concerned about that this year.  Not only is there a glut along the front line, but almost all of those players are playing for contracts.  One player (David Lee) demanded a trade from the defending champions because he wants to have a good individual season so he can make one last run at a big contract.  I am worried that if they don't get the playing time they believe they are warranted to, there could be some unhappy campers which hopefully doesn't have a collective effect on the rest of the morale of the team.

I could see Lee coming off the bench and being fine with 28-30 minutes paired with Thomas. 28-30 minutes a game is still 10-12 more minutes a game than he averaged last year so I think having him off the bench could be a solution.

It would clearly be better for the current performance of the team to have established roles for each player on the team. However, I think having an extremely deep roster with more tradable pieces is much better for the long term health of the team. I am willing to sacrifice a few games during this season, if it means that the C's get an extra first round pick by dealing one of their bigs.

In the end Danny is clearly looking to create as much depth as possible so he can make a blockbuster move and still have a deep team. I don't see that blockbuster happening this year, but I think collecting assets to trade them for future assets is the best path for the team long term (even if it means a couple more losses this year).

I think Jerebko and one of Olynyk/Zeller will barely play at all to start the season but eventually end up in the rotation if they aren't dealt.

See that would be the case if the aforementioned players were those of value - but they really aren't.  And I'm not sure sacrificing early games is the right way to go.  It's pretty important to build off the momentum from last year, otherwise that whole playoff push was all for naught.  If this team starts slowly, with raised fan expectations, I can see media and general fans turning on the team fairly quick - just as they did in '99 with Pitino.  It may be unfair, but that's what would happen if the team got off to a poor start.  And that's why I really dislike going into this season with all these mud-against-the-wall pieces along the frontline.  This team could really benefit from a trade as soon as possible.  Even if the return isn't all that great.  Heck, they had to do it with Courtney Lee (even having to give up a 2nd rounder to get Memphis to take him!)

[Evantime34]

If the Celtics outperform expectations, then depth will be a big reason why.

I think CBS is the reason why, guys play hard for him.

Injuries, addition by subtraction, and clearly defined roles were major contributors to our success last year.   I've never seen a successful team play 12 guys a night.   Right now we have some pretty major log jams that will need to be cleared up...  until then, you might struggle with inconsistency as redundant talent like Zeller, Amir, Sully, Lee, Oly and Jerebko (and maybe even Mickey) all scramble for a taste of minutes.

For most of the season Stevens stuck to a 10 man rotation (this is at least how I remember it). I think it's less likely Stevens tries to play 12 guys to start the season. I expect him to pick 10 and have that be the rotation out of the gate, while telling the guys who aren't playing to stay ready.

Stevens was able to keep everyone engaged last year, and everyone eventually got a chance to play. I think we will need to see this skill again this year.

That, I thought, was really impressive.  The team was miserable - 19-31 at one point - but there were few clunkers.  The team did scrap.  But they also weren't really able to turn that corner until some of the clutter was cleaned out.

I am concerned about that this year.  Not only is there a glut along the front line, but almost all of those players are playing for contracts.  One player (David Lee) demanded a trade from the defending champions because he wants to have a good individual season so he can make one last run at a big contract.  I am worried that if they don't get the playing time they believe they are warranted to, there could be some unhappy campers which hopefully doesn't have a collective effect on the rest of the morale of the team.

I could see Lee coming off the bench and being fine with 28-30 minutes paired with Thomas. 28-30 minutes a game is still 10-12 more minutes a game than he averaged last year so I think having him off the bench could be a solution.

It would clearly be better for the current performance of the team to have established roles for each player on the team. However, I think having an extremely deep roster with more tradable pieces is much better for the long term health of the team. I am willing to sacrifice a few games during this season, if it means that the C's get an extra first round pick by dealing one of their bigs.

In the end Danny is clearly looking to create as much depth as possible so he can make a blockbuster move and still have a deep team. I don't see that blockbuster happening this year, but I think collecting assets to trade them for future assets is the best path for the team long term (even if it means a couple more losses this year).

I think Jerebko and one of Olynyk/Zeller will barely play at all to start the season but eventually end up in the rotation if they aren't dealt.

See that would be the case if the aforementioned players were those of value - but they really aren't.  And I'm not sure sacrificing early games is the right way to go.  It's pretty important to build off the momentum from last year, otherwise that whole playoff push was all for naught.  If this team starts slowly, with raised fan expectations, I can see media and general fans turning on the team fairly quick - just as they did in '99 with Pitino.  It may be unfair, but that's what would happen if the team got off to a poor start.  And that's why I really dislike going into this season with all these mud-against-the-wall pieces along the frontline.  This team could really benefit from a trade as soon as possible.  Even if the return isn't all that great.  Heck, they had to do it with Courtney Lee (even having to give up a 2nd rounder to get Memphis to take him!)

I don't agree that the players I mentioned don't have value.

With Jerebko, Zeller, Sullinger, Lee, and Johnson all potential free agents next year, it makes sense to get draft picks for who they decide isn't going to be with the team long term.

Had they not made the Lee/Johnson moves they wouldn't have had the same roster glut. This would have allowed the C's to give their young bigs an extended look. If at the end of that extended look they realized that Zeller or Sully weren't worthy of a big contract going forward then the C's would be left with an extremely shallow frontcourt.

Adding Lee/Johnson creates a front court crunch, but it also allows them to deal some pieces for picks, roll that value onto future season and not lose any depth.

Not worried about the C's starting off poor because I trust Stevens to play the guys that will help them win and calm those who are restless due to lack of playing time. Pitino was a guy who let the media pressure get to him which lead to him making win now moves that hurt the team long term. If the media jumps on the C's for a bad start I don't think Ainge will over react and make moves that hurt the franchise like Pitino pushed for.

Plus fan attitude has changed since then. The idea that fans want their team to be awful if they aren't a contender is commonplace among all levels of basketball fans. If the team doesn't start hot out of the gates the media will look towards future drafts rather than pile on the current team.

[tenn_smoothie]

I do think that the tendency to envision a team like the Grizzlies as being an ideal team that the modern core of the C's can grow into is a good one -- i.e. A tough defensive team that has enough talent to beat any team in the league over seven games if the ball bounces the right way. I think most of us would be pretty happy with that.

"enough talent to beat any team over seven games if the ball bounces the right way"

As a Celtic fan, I am aiming much higher than that - how about:

Ainge builds the Celtics into a league powerhouse that is one of the favorites to win the title every year, however the ball bounces. That is what we had in the 60's, 70's, 80's and late 2000's and it is hardly too much to expect from the most successful franchise in the league.

[drogbagarnett]

By what criteria is the rebuild "fast," though?

Sure, the team isn't awful.  Danny's done a great job collecting a bunch of assets.  Stevens has done a good job getting them to play together.

The Celts are no closer to a long term core that can truly compete than, say, the 76ers.  The Sixers might actually be closer, if Okafor is the real deal.

My criteria for how "fast" the rebuild is going, or when the rebuild will be "done," is tied to how long it takes them to get that competitive core in place.  I don't particularly care how quickly they've managed to assemble a collection of disparate middle of the road pieces.   

Danny has done a good job amassing a pure quantity of assets.  Let's wait and see if it actually ends up being more useful for reconstructing a quality team than the strategies that other rebuilding teams have used.

Like everyone else is saying, 2-3 legitimate stars and we'll have a good shot at making noise in the playoffs, at least.

In the Eastern Conference, 2-3 'legitimate stars' pretty much guarantees you have a good shot at making noise in the playoffs, regardless of your supporting cast.

Saying the team is a couple of stars away from being good is more or less stating a truism about all NBA teams.

Yeah the sixers are closer with Okafor!!
Jeez!!!
1 great young offensive player and lottery picks closer than 10 good young 2 way players and tons of upcoming picks...
It's like everybody buys into that idea that 2 super stars make a team great....
I would agree that 2 super stars take you home in the 4th quarter of a given playoff game more often than 15 good players....
But over a season team defense and team cohesion and team grit takes you further!
You can handle an injury or foul trouble better...
Atlanta 2014-15 showed us the way.
The spurs showed us the way.
But still we are looking at the 2013 Lakers with Kobe, Dwight, Nash, Pau or the 2014 Nets with Pierce, Joe Johnson, Deron, KG as a blue print....
When would you guys learn that our team is structured to be modeling the spurs or Atl and not the prima donna super star teams...
We were one of the top teams in the second half the year with a great coach that keeps getting better. If we continue this trend then not only would we be well ahead of the sixers in the rebuilt but we would have pretty much already arrived to title contention.... yes I said it : TITLE CONTENTION..!!
Watch us!!

[D.o.s.]

I do think that the tendency to envision a team like the Grizzlies as being an ideal team that the modern core of the C's can grow into is a good one -- i.e. A tough defensive team that has enough talent to beat any team in the league over seven games if the ball bounces the right way. I think most of us would be pretty happy with that.

"enough talent to beat any team over seven games if the ball bounces the right way"

As a Celtic fan, I am aiming much higher than that - how about:

Ainge builds the Celtics into a league powerhouse that is one of the favorites to win the title every year, however the ball bounces. That is what we had in the 60's, 70's, 80's and late 2000's and it is hardly too much to expect from the most successful franchise in the league.

At the risk of being rude: This is so brutally obvious I'm not sure it had to be posted at all.

Since you gleefully misappropriated one line of my post, though, I will respond.

Firstly, I will go out on somewhat of limb and assume that you didn't actually watch the Celtics in the 60's or the 70's -- not many people did, after all -- and as such the Larry Bird era and the KG era are your only experiences with actually watching or following winning Celtics teams. Possibly only the 2008 era.

As such, it follows that you were a Celtics fan for the drought, and likely watched more Celtics games coached by Rick Pitino and M.L. Carr than Bill Russell or Tommy Heinsohn.

Which means that you're well aware that it's much more likely our current core wind up at an Antoine Walker-Pierce level or a Memphis of today level, and holding Ainge to the historic standard of the franchise is, in the short term (which is what we're talking about) a recipe for monumental and sustained disappointment.

Personally, I don't want to hold a roster prominently featuring Evan Turner and David Lee to the standard of "Banner 18." That's not fair to anyone except my doctor, who will see more of me as I try to cope with apoplectic stress.

[PhoSita]

It's like everybody buys into that idea that 2 super stars make a team great....

Yuuuuuuuup

[PhoSita]

If the Celtics outperform expectations, then depth will be a big reason why.

I think CBS is the reason why, guys play hard for him.

Depth can be a reason your team exceeds expectations, but it won't change the basic reality of your team -- you can't go from playoff doormat to contender because of depth.

[JBcat]

No stars added. But to see how fast this roster is turning over for the positive is impressive. The cut to get down to 15 isn't easy this year.
 Here is a look at the end of the roster the 13-14 season.

 Joel Anthony, Victor Faverini, Vander Blue, Chris Babb, Chris Johnson "played 20 mpg", Marshan Brooks, Phil Pressey, Gerald Wallace.

 That's 8 bad NBA players to choose from at the start of the season. And the top of the roster didn't look that good either.

 Rondo, Bradley, Sully,Green, Kelly,Humphries, Bass

 Out of those players we still have the three best Young players in Bradley, Sully, and Kelly. Hard not to admit that Ainge has made the second half our roster 10 times better.
 And the core of    Thomas, Smart, Bradley, Sully, Amir, Lee, Zeller, Crowder is much improved as well.
 Playing the cards he's dealt Danny is doing a heck of a job.

Depth in the NBA is overrated.   All you need is LeBron James and some scrubs and you'll make the Finals.   Having slightly above average bench talent from 5-10 doesn't really matter. 

I do agree that we have some ok talent here, though.   Definitely need to make some big swings at the trade market at some point.  Brad Stevens has his work cut out for him this season.  I can see us winning anything from 32 to 45 wins.

Lebron and "scrubs" can make the finals?!?!  I'm not sure what your definition of scrubs is but mine is borderline NBA players like most of Philly's roster.  For the 13 playoff games before he got hurt, Irving played at an star level, Thompson's late season play might net him a max contract, and you had very valuable role players in Mozgov, Shumpert, and JR Smith. In fact I think their mid season trades for said role players really helped that team as they struggled to gel prior to those trades.

Lebron and the scrubs on Philly's roster are not making the finals. Sorry.

[PhoSita]

Lebron and the scrubs on Philly's roster are not making the finals. Sorry.

LarBrd's definition of "scrubs" is guys who would come off the bench in a minor role, or not at all, on most really good teams.

In other words, the great majority of the Celts' current roster.


I don't know if LeBron would make the Finals with a team like that, but he could probably make the Finals with that and little else. 

[Neurotic Guy]

No stars added. But to see how fast this roster is turning over for the positive is impressive. The cut to get down to 15 isn't easy this year.
 Here is a look at the end of the roster the 13-14 season.

 Joel Anthony, Victor Faverini, Vander Blue, Chris Babb, Chris Johnson "played 20 mpg", Marshan Brooks, Phil Pressey, Gerald Wallace.

 That's 8 bad NBA players to choose from at the start of the season. And the top of the roster didn't look that good either.

 Rondo, Bradley, Sully,Green, Kelly,Humphries, Bass

 Out of those players we still have the three best Young players in Bradley, Sully, and Kelly. Hard not to admit that Ainge has made the second half our roster 10 times better.
 And the core of    Thomas, Smart, Bradley, Sully, Amir, Lee, Zeller, Crowder is much improved as well.
 Playing the cards he's dealt Danny is doing a heck of a job.

Depth in the NBA is overrated.   All you need is LeBron James and some scrubs and you'll make the Finals.   Having slightly above average bench talent from 5-10 doesn't really matter. 

I do agree that we have some ok talent here, though.   Definitely need to make some big swings at the trade market at some point.  Brad Stevens has his work cut out for him this season.  I can see us winning anything from 32 to 45 wins.

Is depth overrated? I feel like everyone thinks depth is less important than stars, so I'm not sure who is rating it too high. If anything I think depth is underrated, because most fans think there is no chance to win without a star.

If the Celtics outperform expectations, then depth will be a big reason why. If the Celtics outperform the expectations of media and fans based off of depth then it is by definition underrated.

Depth can be under or over rated -- either way, almost nobody would argue for depth over star-power.    The real beauty of what Ainge has put together so far is that the Celtics have legitimate chances to acquire star-power through free agency, trade AND/OR the draft (primarily via Nets picks).    All three pathways are wide open.

Realists are obviously correct that the rebuild isn't over till we are competitive, but I don't think the OPs point was that the rebuild is done, or even almost done.   KGLL is saying that in less than two years DA has put the C's in position to take a huge leap by managing salaries and building a surprising number of assets (tradeable and many with growth potential).  Oh, and also hiring a highly respected young coach.

I can see how someone could be unconvinced that this will lead to a contender in a couple years, but I can't see how anyone would not be impressed with what this team looks like today vs. 18 months ago.