Author Topic: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.  (Read 23637 times)

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Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #90 on: August 19, 2015, 05:40:21 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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Rasheed Wallace 13.7 ppg and 7 RPG.

 Ben Wallace. 9.5 ppg 12.4 RPG

 Not awe inspiring numbers.

Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #91 on: August 19, 2015, 06:06:39 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Whatever you want them to be, that's what the Hawks are, I guess.

Except for a team with a loyal/interested fanbase.

Boom.
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Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #92 on: August 19, 2015, 06:22:55 PM »

Offline mctyson

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WE DO HAVE A STAR

His name is Marcus Smart.  He will be a 1st-team All NBA Defensive player very soon - maybe this year - mark my words.  He is our Gary Payton.

Sully will be a double-double player (or very close) this year.  Again, mark my words.

Further, Avery Bradley has 'star' potential on defense (already a 2nd team All NBA Defense).

We have a 'star' scorer, 4th quarter scorer, and 6th man in IT4.

People really underrate the individual talents some of our players have.  If this roster can maximize everyone's best talents - and it can because we have a great coach - then they well on their way to competing.


Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #93 on: August 19, 2015, 07:09:43 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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WE DO HAVE A STAR

His name is Marcus Smart.  He will be a 1st-team All NBA Defensive player very soon - maybe this year - mark my words.  He is our Gary Payton.

Sully will be a double-double player (or very close) this year.  Again, mark my words.

Further, Avery Bradley has 'star' potential on defense (already a 2nd team All NBA Defense).

We have a 'star' scorer, 4th quarter scorer, and 6th man in IT4.

People really underrate the individual talents some of our players have.  If this roster can maximize everyone's best talents - and it can because we have a great coach - then they well on their way to competing.
You have a very inclusive idea of star.

TA has as much 'star' potential on defense as anyone, but he is not even close to qualifying as a star under most people's definition.

Double-double does not mean star. A lot of mediocre players have had a season with 'very close' to double-double numbers.

And half the players in the NBA have the potential to be a star under their best case developmental progression. The majority won't develop that way.

Regarding the OP, it is not hard to build a mediocre team. Teams struggle to rebuild because they are trying to develop superstars instead of building to be mediocre.

Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #94 on: August 19, 2015, 07:12:03 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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We really have no dead weight on our roster.  Our final 3 spots are most likely going to be taken up by our 3 draft picks which is good.  The days of Gerald Wallace appear to be over.
We might have dead weight. They are just too early in their careers for us to evaluate whether they are dead weight. And we don't have a large enough payroll to care about people's paychecks anyway.

Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #95 on: August 19, 2015, 07:12:45 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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We could speed up the rebuild

By dumping ET

ASAP


Like we should have Bass ....years and years ago

Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #96 on: August 19, 2015, 07:53:37 PM »

Offline mctyson

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WE DO HAVE A STAR

His name is Marcus Smart.  He will be a 1st-team All NBA Defensive player very soon - maybe this year - mark my words.  He is our Gary Payton.

Sully will be a double-double player (or very close) this year.  Again, mark my words.

Further, Avery Bradley has 'star' potential on defense (already a 2nd team All NBA Defense).

We have a 'star' scorer, 4th quarter scorer, and 6th man in IT4.

People really underrate the individual talents some of our players have.  If this roster can maximize everyone's best talents - and it can because we have a great coach - then they well on their way to competing.
You have a very inclusive idea of star.

TA has as much 'star' potential on defense as anyone, but he is not even close to qualifying as a star under most people's definition.

Double-double does not mean star. A lot of mediocre players have had a season with 'very close' to double-double numbers.

And half the players in the NBA have the potential to be a star under their best case developmental progression. The majority won't develop that way.

Regarding the OP, it is not hard to build a mediocre team. Teams struggle to rebuild because they are trying to develop superstars instead of building to be mediocre.

My only 'star' in that group is Marcus Smart.  And yes I think most people would say that Tony Allen is a 'star' on defense, which is half of the game of basketball (so by definition he is half a star).  I bet if you ask Ainge his biggest regret as a GM, letting Allen walk for a few million dollars would be in the top 3, if not #1.


Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #97 on: August 19, 2015, 08:24:01 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Lebron and the scrubs on Philly's roster are not making the finals. Sorry.

LarBrd's definition of "scrubs" is guys who would come off the bench in a minor role, or not at all, on most really good teams.

In other words, the great majority of the Celts' current roster.


I don't know if LeBron would make the Finals with a team like that, but he could probably make the Finals with that and little else.
Cavs won 33 games with Kyrie Irving.   With LeBron they made the finals.  Was my comment an exaggeration?  I mean... maybe.   They swept the Hawks and in half of those games, LeBron shared the court with Delladova, Shumpert, Mozgov, and Tristan Thompson.  He also managed to win 2 games in the Finals with that supporting cast.  Not necessarily scrubs, but that team without LeBron probably wins 24 games.  Let's not forget that the Cavs went from winning 61 games to 19 the year he left...

Philly is coming off a season winning 18 games.  Despite this, they had a top 12 defense.  In-fact, over the second half the season they had the best defense in the league in minutes Nerlens Noel was on the court.   You might be able to expect a slight improvement with the return Wroten, the addition of Okafor, the addition of Stauskas and Landry and the improvement of Noel.   Would adding LeBron James to that bunch get them into the Finals?  No... probably not.  But I'd take that team over the Celtics in a 7 game series. 

Depth is overrated.   All about superstars.    This team will do everything imaginable to land a superstar.   The team understands the necessity.

Not sure I agree with this. The MVP of the most recent Finals started that series by coming off the bench. The guy we just traded for played a huge role in that team winning, also coming off the bench. The height of Shaun Livington coming off the bench in the backcourt made for huge problems for the Cavs.

Speaking of the Cavs, having Matthew Dellavedova and Tristan Thompson step up for 2 All-Star players that went down to injury certainly helped them get to the Finals. Both of those teams were not collections of All-Star talent.

First point:  Yeah Iggy made won Finals MVP.  They had the regular season MVP on that team as well... plus another all-star in Klay Thompson.

Second point:  Did you just suggest David Lee had a "huge" role during the finals last year?  What?   Lee averaged 8 minutes in the playoffs (9 in the finals) and was a DNP for 9 of those games.

Third point:  Shaun livingston... I mean... seriously?

Forth point:  Sure, Delladova and Thompson stepped up.  I think everyone acknowledges that the Cavs don't win the final two games against the Hawks or beat the Warriors twice without superhuman efforts from LeBron James.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gpxZSSPvxk

James averaged 30 points, 11 rebounds, 9.3 assists, 1.5 steals vs the Hawks.   James averaged 36 points, 13 rebounds, 9 assists, 1.3 steals vs the Warriors.

That Cavs team sans LeBron (with both Kyrie and Love out) wins about 24 games at most. 

Stars are what matter in this league.   Sure the Hawks won 60 games this year... the Hawks had four all-stars.   I don't really care how much better our 12th man is vs some other team's 12th man.   We aren't accomplishing anything substantial without a star or two or three or four.

Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #98 on: August 19, 2015, 08:42:42 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Lebron and the scrubs on Philly's roster are not making the finals. Sorry.

LarBrd's definition of "scrubs" is guys who would come off the bench in a minor role, or not at all, on most really good teams.

In other words, the great majority of the Celts' current roster.


I don't know if LeBron would make the Finals with a team like that, but he could probably make the Finals with that and little else.
Cavs won 33 games with Kyrie Irving.   With LeBron they made the finals.  Was my comment an exaggeration?  I mean... maybe.   They swept the Hawks and in half of those games, LeBron shared the court with Delladova, Shumpert, Mozgov, and Tristan Thompson.  He also managed to win 2 games in the Finals with that supporting cast.  Not necessarily scrubs, but that team without LeBron probably wins 24 games.  Let's not forget that the Cavs went from winning 61 games to 19 the year he left...

Philly is coming off a season winning 18 games.  Despite this, they had a top 12 defense.  In-fact, over the second half the season they had the best defense in the league in minutes Nerlens Noel was on the court.   You might be able to expect a slight improvement with the return Wroten, the addition of Okafor, the addition of Stauskas and Landry and the improvement of Noel.   Would adding LeBron James to that bunch get them into the Finals?  No... probably not.  But I'd take that team over the Celtics in a 7 game series. 

Depth is overrated.   All about superstars.    This team will do everything imaginable to land a superstar.   The team understands the necessity.

Not sure I agree with this. The MVP of the most recent Finals started that series by coming off the bench. The guy we just traded for played a huge role in that team winning, also coming off the bench. The height of Shaun Livington coming off the bench in the backcourt made for huge problems for the Cavs.

Speaking of the Cavs, having Matthew Dellavedova and Tristan Thompson step up for 2 All-Star players that went down to injury certainly helped them get to the Finals. Both of those teams were not collections of All-Star talent.

First point:  Yeah Iggy made won Finals MVP.  They had the regular season MVP on that team as well... plus another all-star in Klay Thompson.

Second point:  Did you just suggest David Lee had a "huge" role during the finals last year?  What?   Lee averaged 8 minutes in the playoffs (9 in the finals) and was a DNP for 9 of those games.

Third point:  Shaun livingston... I mean... seriously?

Forth point:  Sure, Delladova and Thompson stepped up.  I think everyone acknowledges that the Cavs don't win the final two games against the Hawks or beat the Warriors twice without superhuman efforts from LeBron James.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gpxZSSPvxk

James averaged 30 points, 11 rebounds, 9.3 assists, 1.5 steals vs the Hawks.   James averaged 36 points, 13 rebounds, 9 assists, 1.3 steals vs the Warriors.

That Cavs team sans LeBron (with both Kyrie and Love out) wins about 24 games at most. 

Stars are what matter in this league.   Sure the Hawks won 60 games this year... the Hawks had four all-stars.   I don't really care how much better our 12th man is vs some other team's 12th man.   We aren't accomplishing anything substantial without a star or two or three or four.
To call David Lee's impact huge is an overstatement, but are you denying that he had a substantial impact in the series?

Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #99 on: August 19, 2015, 09:11:32 PM »

Offline BDeCosta26

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I think it's incorrect to say that because we have no obvious "stars" right now, that this team can't be anything more than an also-ran 8th seed for the next couple years or that our lack of "star power" right now means our future outlook is bad, that Ainge has somehow screwed up our rebuild or that a team like the Lakers has a better outlook than we do. I think that's ridiculous and ignores how well we have built a competitive, improving young team with a great developing culture while also accumulating the assets and flexibility to pursue all avenues (Draft, Trade, FA) to return to contender status.

I also think it's incorrect to say that this team as currently constituted is going to grow to contender status with a Sully, Smart, AB, IT core, or that without any major changes this team is even gonna get past LeBron in the next couple years. The "accumulating assets" phase of the rebuild isn't over, because we don't have a contending roster yet. Ainge won't be done collecting assets until we do. It's exactly why we traded Wallace for Lee and wasted cap space to give PJ3 a look and grab a 2nd rounder. If they underachieve this year, it wouldn't surprise me to see Ainge take part of this team down, keep our 1sts and go total youth movement. That flexibility to do that is part of the reason I'm excited about our future. I still think this team could surprise people and could even win 50 games, but we're not developing into a contender with just these guys. The FO knows that better than anyone.

You can like our current group and be really excited about our future while also being concerned about our lack of obvious "star talent" and wonder where that talent is coming from. The two aren't necessarily separate. I just realize that the FO is keenly aware of where they are, and know what it takes to get where they wanna go.


I think your opening paragraph sets up some straw man arguments, but overall you make a solid point.

Where I'm at on this comes down to the sentence I've bolded.

The Celts are not done rebuilding.  Nowhere close.  And to my mind, while Ainge has done a great job of maintaining flexibility and assembling assets, all he's done is give himself resources with which to make future deals.  The Celtics are still in a state of rebuild that reminds one of the Gertrude Stein quote, "There is no there there."

That's why I don't see the Celtics as any further along in their rebuild, or doing any better job of it, than teams like the Sixers, Magic, T-Wolves, etc.  The wins in the short term mean nothing to me because the team has no shot of doing anything meaningful beyond winning enough regular season games to allow us to craft feel-good narratives about the team and the coach.

I appreciate that the wins in the short term have actual value to a lot of fans, and I respect that.  I also understand that some people place a lot of value on the intangible stuff like team culture, providing positive examples for young players, and so on. 

I tend to think those things could be accomplished without sacrificing so much on the player development and draft asset front.  I also tend to think they matter relatively little until there is a core group in place that can carry over the intangible benefits into a theoretical eventual era of contention.

Well, When Ainge traded Rondo and Green he seemed to have the intention of playing his way to a high lottery pick, and even after the IT trade no one really thought we'd be in the playoffs. This team overachieved, and played their way to a 7th seed with an outstanding 2nd half. I don't think that's "sacrificing player development" when your one of the youngest teams in the league and almost everyone you have is 26 or under.

So it turns out the guys we have and the coach we have, right now at least, are better than anyone thought. I think it's really unfair to think of these guys as scrubs, because most of our guys would play meaningful minutes on a contender. I think Ainge also saw this. He knows the culture were building is very important to sustained success, and if we can draft/trade/sign a star or two and pry them around this group, we could really have something.

But even with all our flexibility, you can't really pursue all the avenues to improvement with equal aggressiveness in a single offseason. The direction you choose to go drives your off-season moves. I think Ainge was right to go this direction this season because that team that finished last season was pretty dang good and if your gonna break up that team because you feel like you didn't get a high enough pick it sends a very poor message to your young players, your coaches and your organization. We have extra picks that look pretty good coming our way and a bevy of trade assets. Your growing core and HC are gaining respect. You should at least try to make legit improvements, search out a good trade and see if you can try to sign someone next summer before you start making the team worse in the name of a slightly higher draft pick.

However, that's what I like about our off-season. We drafted guys that can use development but have good potential. We legitimately filled holes on our team that will allow us to improve even more this year, IMO. But we didn't get locked into any long term commitments to any over-rated over-priced veterans, and if things don't play out the way we hope we can literally shift on a dime, make a few moves at the deadline or at the draft and use our 3 likely top 15 picks to add to a total youth roster of Smart, Young, Rozier, Mickey, Crowder etc and go from there.

Our ability to pursue the most sensible road to contention, no matter what that is, whenever the opportunity presents itself is the key to our successful rebuild. We don't necessarily NEED Sully/Smart/KO etc. to develop into an all-star, wait on a major trade, or simply hope we can sign a big-name FA. We can do whatever option is the best at the time, and retain the flexibility to change course if need be. That's what I'm excited about. The issues of the "being stuck in the middle" seem rendered moot by that point.

Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #100 on: August 19, 2015, 11:05:35 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Don't know what's with the Hawks talk. Nobody mentions the Pistons. Who was their superstar? All 5 guys were close to equal in talent.
 Billups was mister big shot, but he was never a top player in the league, Hamilton was a good scorer that didn't play much D. Prince all around glue guy and defender. Ben Wallace Defensive stud, and Rasheed inside outside scorer, defender.

 They did go to Two finals and win one with this team of no real stars.

This was definitely the exception to the rule. They didn't have a superstar but they did have 3 to 4 all-stars during those seasons.

Celtics don't have a single all-star at the moment.

And the Pistons got lucky that year as well. The Lakers imploded more than anytbing. Put the Pistons up against pretty much any other champion any other year and they get swept.


  The next year they took a pretty good Spurs team to 7 games in the finals. They were better than you remember.

Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #101 on: August 19, 2015, 11:23:21 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Ben Wallace was a superstar.  He won 4 DPOY awards in 5 years.  He wasn't a two-way superstar, but the impact he had on a game was massive.
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Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #102 on: August 20, 2015, 10:49:03 AM »

Offline GC003332

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No stars added. But to see how fast this roster is turning over for the positive is impressive. The cut to get down to 15 isn't easy this year.
 Here is a look at the end of the roster the 13-14 season.

 Joel Anthony, Victor Faverini, Vander Blue, Chris Babb, Chris Johnson "played 20 mpg", Marshan Brooks, Phil Pressey, Gerald Wallace.

 That's 8 bad NBA players to choose from at the start of the season. And the top of the roster didn't look that good either.

 Rondo, Bradley, Sully,Green, Kelly,Humphries, Bass

 Out of those players we still have the three best Young players in Bradley, Sully, and Kelly. Hard not to admit that Ainge has made the second half our roster 10 times better.
 And the core of    Thomas, Smart, Bradley, Sully, Amir, Lee, Zeller, Crowder is much improved as well.
 Playing the cards he's dealt Danny is doing a heck of a job.
Except for not getting lucky in the 2014 draft Danny has dealt himself all the cards he is playing with at present, just like he dealt himself that 2013-14 roster.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2015, 11:11:22 AM by GC003332 »

Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #103 on: August 20, 2015, 12:20:11 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Rasheed Wallace 13.7 ppg and 7 RPG.

 Ben Wallace. 9.5 ppg 12.4 RPG

 Not awe inspiring numbers.

This is like taking Durant's offensive  rebound percentage and saying "I don't see what the big deal is."

WE DO HAVE A STAR

His name is Marcus Smart.  He will be a 1st-team All NBA Defensive player very soon - maybe this year - mark my words.  He is our Gary Payton.

Sully will be a double-double player (or very close) this year.  Again, mark my words.

Further, Avery Bradley has 'star' potential on defense (already a 2nd team All NBA Defense).

We have a 'star' scorer, 4th quarter scorer, and 6th man in IT4.

People really underrate the individual talents some of our players have.  If this roster can maximize everyone's best talents - and it can because we have a great coach - then they well on their way to competing.



What do we do with your words if they don't come true after we've marked them?
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #104 on: August 20, 2015, 05:09:53 PM »

Offline vjcsmoke

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Win it all with this roster?  Of course not.  But I think this team will give other teams headaches.  And 40-45 wins and a late playoff berth in the weak East is pretty much a done deal.  Now if someone emerges as a star then we can make some noise. 

But who is that going to be, Smart, Rozier, Ko, Sullinger, Hunter?    I'd say the most likely candidate is Smart.  If he can put everything together, he could be a real impact player for us.

I do feel we need a talent consolidation trade.  Right now 16 contracts and only 15 roster spots.  If we can move 2 or 3 players plus picks for 1 star player that would help a lot.

I really do not know if this kind of team can win it all.    Being deep certainly helps us, but how many deep teams without a bonafide star have won it all?

Still as you said, Ainge has put together a team that is fun to watch and competes.  I actually enjoyed the way we played in spring last year.   Would I rather be winning titles absolutely.   But so far, so good, it has been a fast turnaround.   I just do not know if we have guys ready to take the next step forward.