Bob Cousy says he'd rather tank/draft than get stuck in the middle of the pack.

[Celtics18]

This is probably going to sound nuts to most of you, but I think the vast majority of players who are talented enough to make it to the NBA and stick around and become legitimate pros have the talent to make an All Star team someday.

I mean, Jamaal Magloire did make an All-Star team.


Still, I disagree with this sentiment.  Give Phil Pressey all the time and attention in the world, he's never going to be an All-Star.  Just like you can plant a tomato seed and give it all the water and sunlight you want and it won't turn into a peach tree.

You're probably right about Pressey. 

I can't argue the biological accuracy of you tomatoes to peaches metaphor.  Very poetic. 

[greece66]

This is probably going to sound nuts to most of you, but I think the vast majority of players who are talented enough to make it to the NBA and stick around and become legitimate pros have the talent to make an All Star team someday.

I mean, Jamaal Magloire did make an All-Star team.


Still, I disagree with this sentiment.  Give Phil Pressey all the time and attention in the world, he's never going to be an All-Star.  Just like you can plant a tomato seed and give it all the water and sunlight you want and it won't turn into a peach tree.

Ahem my fellow Celtic. You eliminated the part where he said a number of our guys.

He clearly did not have Phil in his mind when wrote that. Strawman fallacy 

[greece66]

This is probably going to sound nuts to most of you, but I think the vast majority of players who are talented enough to make it to the NBA and stick around and become legitimate pros have the talent to make an All Star team someday.

I mean, Jamaal Magloire did make an All-Star team.


Still, I disagree with this sentiment.  Give Phil Pressey all the time and attention in the world, he's never going to be an All-Star.  Just like you can plant a tomato seed and give it all the water and sunlight you want and it won't turn into a peach tree.

You're probably right about Pressey. 

I can't argue the biological accuracy of you tomatoes to peaches metaphor.  Very poetic.

TP <3

[BDeCosta26]

Outside of celtics blog and even celtics fandom, gms and others are praising the job our franchise is doing during our rebuild.

There have been plenty of articles written raising an eyebrow at what the Celtics are doing, wondering aloud if Danny Ainge will be able to get the Celtics past the purgatory of the middle without any high draft picks.  It's not just on Celticsblog that you hear that.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25263702/should-nba-teams-rebuild-through-draft-free-agency-or-trade

Still, there are pitfalls to rebuilding through trades as well. For one, the Celtics won't be in position to land a top-two caliber lottery pick unless the bottom falls completely out on Brooklyn (which isn't impossible, but also unlikely). They're too good to fail and not good enough to contend. Without the big dreamy trade, the Celtics are just stuck in neutral, no matter how many butterflies Brad Stevens puts in their fans' stomachs. Stevens could be a cyborg version of Popovich and it's not going to lead that team to a title.

Yet, Philly has been straight losing on purpose for what, three years in a row now? If memory serves they STILL haven't gotten a top-two pick, which is really the end game of a hard tank. You can try hard to tank, as we did for Duncan/Durant, and still end up with the 4th or 5th pick.

I do think your right about the importance of the Brooklyn picks and the Dallas pick. How those shake out is gonna be of major impact to our rebuild regardless of how we try to build a team. Personally, I expect at least one top-ten pick and another somewhere in the 10-15 range. I think with one Lopez injury (a definite possibility) that could be a top 5 pick, and with two lottery picks I think Ainge could have something there. Let's not forget that Pierce was picked at #10, Al Jefferson was picked at #15, we used to #5 pick in 07 to trade for Ray Allen and Rondo was picked in the 20's. We have all the other assets needed to make a significant trade. I don't think we need to land picks #2 and #8 to extract something major from those picks, I think #7 and #10 could be nearly as significant.

I think the important thing to remember when judging this off-season is that Ainge has left himself the flexibility to pivot back to a lottery run should things not work out this year. Johnson and Jerebko are on team-option non guaranteed deals. Bradley and Thomas are on very movable deals. Lee and Turner expire this season, Zeller and Sully haven't gotten extensions. We have the ability to trim this thing down and aim for a high pick ourselves, and I highly doubt Ainge wouldn't do that of he thought it was the best play.

[kozlodoev]

I mean, Jamaal Magloire did make an All-Star team.

I'm not sure this had much to do with his talent. He was a 14-and-10 player on a 41-41 team. I mean, his competition was Eddy Curry, who averaged 6 rebounds in 34 minutes that season.

[Beat LA]

Always easier to tell the fanbase of a team you are not a fan of that it's easier to tank.
(Cousy is a Miami fan)

Cousy isn't a Celtics fan? I mean, sure, he lives in Miami, but that doesn't make him a fan of that franchise.

[Beat LA]

This is probably going to sound nuts to most of you, but I think the vast majority of players who are talented enough to make it to the NBA and stick around and become legitimate pros have the talent to make an All Star team someday.

I mean, Jamaal Magloire did make an All-Star team.


Still, I disagree with this sentiment.  Give Phil Pressey all the time and attention in the world, he's never going to be an All-Star.  Just like you can plant a tomato seed and give it all the water and sunlight you want and it won't turn into a peach tree.

I always thought that he was underrated, quite honestly.  He was a good defender, rebounder, and could actually play with his back to the basket.  He used to give us fits when he played for the Bucks, iirc.

[PhoSita]

Ahem my fellow Celtic. You eliminated the part where he said a number of our guys.

He clearly did not have Phil in his mind when wrote that. Strawman fallacy 

Perhaps, but I mention Phil Pressey (who I was glad to see catch on with another NBA team after he was waived) as an example.

I think the same holds true for Bradley, Turner, Crowder, Zeller, Olynyk, Amir, and Jerebko.  The rooks are impossible to judge yet because they haven't even played (though who knows when they'll get to play for the Celts). 

Smart has a chance, I think.  Thomas could perhaps get in if the team decided to play him 36+ minutes a night just to watch him put up 25 points a game.  Sullinger is a long shot but in theory if he completely turned himself around physically it's plausible.


The key takeaway here is that while the Celts have a number of decent role players who are young enough to play in this league for another 8-10 years if not more, only one or two of them probably has what it takes to ever be a top difference maker at his position, and even then it's iffy. 

That limits how much we can expect to get from this group, even with optimal improvement.

[Celtics4ever]

Outside of celtics blog and even celtics fandom, gms and others are praising the job our franchise is doing during our rebuild.

I have Sirius Radio and NBA radio and they are not praising the Celtics there.   They thought Ainge reached for Rozier, thought other than Amir our off season was pretty bland.   Some of the guys were interviewing GMs too.

How GMs do you know?   I am guessing Zero.

[greece66]

Ahem my fellow Celtic. You eliminated the part where he said a number of our guys.

He clearly did not have Phil in his mind when wrote that. Strawman fallacy 

Perhaps, but I mention Phil Pressey (who I was glad to see catch on with another NBA team after he was waived) as an example.

I think the same holds true for Bradley, Turner, Crowder, Zeller, Olynyk, Amir, and Jerebko.  The rooks are impossible to judge yet because they haven't even played (though who knows when they'll get to play for the Celts). 

Smart has a chance, I think.  Thomas could perhaps get in if the team decided to play him 36+ minutes a night just to watch him put up 25 points a game.  Sullinger is a long shot but in theory if he completely turned himself around physically it's plausible.


The key takeaway here is that while the Celts have a number of decent role players who are young enough to play in this league for another 8-10 years if not more, only one or two of them probably has what it takes to ever be a top difference maker at his position, and even then it's iffy. 

That limits how much we can expect to get from this group, even with optimal improvement.

If you remove the negativity  I think most of us here know all this very well and agree.

Problem is I do not see an alternative to that.

Sure, if things go really wrong we can go for the fulltankathon. But tankathon is Plan D. 

Plan A is develop what we have and try to add a superstar through trade/FA/draft.

We all know the NBA is super competitive, but we are not doomed either.

[PhoSita]

We all know the NBA is super competitive, but we are not doomed either.

'

That's not what I'm saying here.  I'm simply pushing back against the "Why are people so hung up on the draft?  We're already one of the youngest teams in the league!" sentiment that I've seen expressed more than a few times around here.

Just because the Celts are young does not mean they are on an upward trajectory toward being competitive.  One does not follow from the other.

[mctyson]

Just turned 87 years old. Still sharp as ever....
Couz may have a point? hehe


http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/08/08/bob-cousy-boston-timeless-treasure/bGAri28zRmJ7l7wBtihiqO/story.html

Cousy professed “great confidence” in Celtics president of basketball operations Danny Ainge and his blueprint for banner No. 18.

But he also offered a pragmatic view of the Celtics’ road back to contention, after a surprising playoff berth last season.

“They’re ending up in the middle, which frankly is the worst place you can be, in my judgment,” Cousy said. “You either get up near the top and enjoy the goodies or you finish last and get the first, second, third pick, and then you’ve got a shot at helping yourself through the draft. When you’re in the middle you’re just not going to get impact players.”

Preach on, Cooz. If the Parishioners of the Parquet aren’t going to listen to bloviating sportswriters (raising hand), maybe they’ll listen to one of their most revered figures.

His argument is stupid.  Basically his point:  you better be the worst team in league or the best.  So let's contract the NBA to 4 teams.

[greece66]

We all know the NBA is super competitive, but we are not doomed either.

'

That's not what I'm saying here.  I'm simply pushing back against the "Why are people so hung up on the draft?  We're already one of the youngest teams in the league!" sentiment that I've seen expressed more than a few times around here.

Just because the Celts are young does not mean they are on an upward trajectory toward being competitive.  One does not follow from the other.

Fellow Celtic, if I ever said that, send me the quote and I'll take it back.

But I never did.

Strawman II 

[Beat LA]

Outside of celtics blog and even celtics fandom, gms and others are praising the job our franchise is doing during our rebuild.

I have Sirius Radio and NBA radio and they are not praising the Celtics there.   They thought Ainge reached for Rozier, thought other than Amir our off season was pretty bland.   Some of the guys were interviewing GMs too.

How GMs do you know?   I am guessing Zero.

About bloody time.

[crimson_stallion]

We all know the NBA is super competitive, but we are not doomed either.

'

That's not what I'm saying here.  I'm simply pushing back against the "Why are people so hung up on the draft?  We're already one of the youngest teams in the league!" sentiment that I've seen expressed more than a few times around here.

Just because the Celts are young does not mean they are on an upward trajectory toward being competitive.  One does not follow from the other.

I think the idea is not just that we're one of the youngest teams already...it's that we are one of the youngest teams AND we are a playoff team.

If we manage to make a 5th or 4th seed this year (whether you believe that's possible all not, this is all hypothetical) while also being one of the youngest teams in the league, then that immediately increased your appeal to free agents.

Free agents then see a team who is already a good playoff team, is on the way up (since all the players are young and will only improve in time - even if it's not by a dramatic amount) and so they feel that adding somebody of their talent level could be the one piece needed to push said team over the edge.

This is ultimately what led to Milwaukee picking up Greg Monroe - he saw them as a team who was young, just made the playoffs, and could potentially be one good piece away from being a top 4 playoff team for years to come.

If Milwaukee had tanked (for arguments sake) and never made the playoffs, then I can all but guarantee you Monroe would not have signed there.

People seem to think success doesn't impact on free agent interest - put yourself in the position of a star free agent...would YOU want to sign a multi-year contact for a team that just got the wooden spoon (or near enough to it) for the last 2-3 years? 

How about a team who has been competitive, but has an old and ageing roster that might only have another year or two of competitiveness left in it? 

Or option theree - would you rather sign a milti-year deal for a team that just made the playoffs, has a roster full of young players, and has a ton of assets?

Kevin Love left Minnesota because they couldn't get to the playoffs. Greg Monroe left the Pistons for the same reason.  If the Kings haven't become competitive by the time Cousin's contact expires, I'm sure he'll do the same.   

Star players want to compete - they want to win.  They don't want to waste 4-5 years during their physical peak losing game after game, year after year.

If I'm a free agent looking to sign a long-term deal, then I want to know two main things:

1) Do you have a team that can at least compete for a playoff right now?
2) Do you have the resources /assets to keep the team competitive for the duration of my time here?

If either answer is no, I'd be walking away.

This will especially be true in the next season or two because every team will have cap space, so as a star there is really no incentive to play for a team that looks like it might be in the lottery for the next 2-3 years.