Celtics trade for David Lee

[D Dub]

just read this really great breakdown of Lee's game from someone calling themselves 'Warriors Analyst' on another bulletin board. 

copy/pasting it here for the CB faithful to peruse, good stuff.

I'm a Warriors fan who used to be pretty anti-Lee but I grew to really appreciate him in the last year or two as a player. He can still be an extremely valuable and productive player, IF used in the right situations.

The old stereotype about David Lee is that he's an awful, awful, awful defender. This is true to some extent, but is also something that can be negated and even turned into a net neutral on the court, if surrounded by the right players. At this point in Lee's career, he probably is not a 25-30+ minutes a game player after a series of abdominal and hamstring injuries. His jumpshot was once a staple of the Warriors offense with Curry pick/pops but it seems to have abandoned him in the last few years.

That said, I think Celtics fans will be pleasantly surprised with Lee if he's played primarily at the 5. Most of people's complaints about David Lee on defense revolve around him getting burned in pick and roll coverage and being a mediocre rim-protector. If you put him at the 5, he doesn't have to nearly as much work running around guarding 4's that can dribble or shoot. Lee is no shot blocker by any means, but in single coverage in the post, he's done a decent job in the past defending some brutish types. I assume lots of fans will recoil in horror at the idea of David Lee playing the 5, but if he's put next to someone like Amir Johnson who is a good defender and capable shotblocker, Lee's defensive problems will neutralized.If the Celtics utilize lineups with good swarming defenses that focus on snuffing out pick and rolls and keeping the ball out of the paint, Lee at the 5 will not be a problem whatsoever. In Mark Jackson's last year, the Warriors took the Clippers to 7 games with the Draymond Green/David Lee frontline and may well have won the series if Mark Jackson had pulled his head out of his ass earlier and stopped playing David Lee/Jermaine O'Neal frontlines with terrible spacing. During most of the regular season, the Curry/Klay/Igoudala/Green/Lee lineup had something around a +30 net rating with a defensive net rating somewhere either in the low 90's or high 80's. Not gonna go back and find those numbers, but I've seen them tossed around in many places. If you want to read an incredibly optimistic view of David Lee, I would recommend checking out feltbot.com. This guy is a Warriors blogger that has long been aboard the Lee at the 5 campaign and he's cited the numbers many a time.

As a Warriors fan, I am of course thrilled with how the season went, but the whole season I felt like Steve Kerr was completely misusing Lee on offense. Mo Speights is no low post threat and he isn't a high level passer like Lee was so Kerr ran him mostly through pick and rolls and pops at the 5. Festus Ezeli still is learning how to play the post and isn't a good passer at this point in his career, so Kerr used him mostly in pick and roll situations. Lee on the other hand has a reputation as a low-post player and a great passer so Kerr had an affinity for sticking him in the high post for handoffs and in the pinch post in sets that were triangle mutations. At this point in Lee's career, he is only really effective posting up against bigger and slower players. Athletic players will eat his sh-t in the low block if they have time to prepare for him. THAT SAID, Lee is still a monster in the pick and roll, especially if he's playing the 5 with a spaced floor. My biggest fear as a Warriors fan all season was that the Warriors bench wouldn't be able to score in the playoffs and that this would bite them in the ass. This did indeed become a huge problem in the Finals and Kerr finally used Lee at the 5 running picking and rolls with Livingston and Curry in Game 4 and 5 and he saved the Warriors ass in a huge way.

If you use Lee at the 5 with a lineup full of shooters, he will be a threat for 10-15+ points a game off the bench in 20-25 minutes. Lee is an incredibly smart player who is equally adept with both hands. He doesn't always set real picks and prefers to slip screens, but if he does this above the three point line with a point guard that is a shooting threat (Steph Curry or in this case, Isaiah Thomas), Lee will get tons of opportunities to get the ball at the free throw line, and assuming he is playing the 5, won't have to deal with Bogut or Jermaine O'Neal clogging the paint and dragging their man into the lane and making Lee susceptible to getting his shot blocked. During the Jackson tenure, the Warriors offense was highly uncreative, but Green/Lee lineups were incredibly solid defensively and absolute terrors on offense. With the floor properly spaced, Lee gets a chance to get the ball at the free throw line on pick and rolls, make a read and either drive to the hoop or kick the ball out to open shooters. He may be getting older and he probably won't be nearly as athletic or capable of playing big minutes as he was in his youth, but he's still a wizard in the pick and roll and makes great reads about when to drive and when to kick.

I didn't watch the Celtics outside of their games with the Warriors, but I did get the sense that Stevens was a brilliant tactician who adapts his game plan to his players. I would hope that Stevens uses Lee paired up with Amir Johnson at the 4 where his defensive problems will be covered by Amir, or in super small ball lineups with Jae Crowder at the 4 where the offensive firepower will blow most bench units out of the water.

I know that Lee was superfluous in the Warriors scheme given his huge salary and Kerr's insistence on using Lee in the post, but I for one am going to miss him a lot. I had my gripes about Lee in the past, but as I grew older and understood tactics and gameplans more and more, I grew to really appreciate Lee on the court and really did feel that even on the Warriors, he got put in some situations where he wasn't used to his true potential. He's a true professional who gave out his hamstring and his abdominal muscles in the his first two playoffs and probably sacrificed some mileage in the long term. He cares deeply about winning and I think the Celtics will actually put him to good use and make this trade look like a steal for them long term.

[gpap]

It's fascinating to watch, that with a trade which can logically be viewed as either a good, or a bad, one, the homers attacking everyone who disagrees with the "sunshine day!" side of things, all the while claiming that it's the less optimistic posters who are the problem.

I think it's because one contingent of fans tends to like things which appear to be a "win now" move, and are offended by the notion that such a move could be viewed as a "bad" thing by people who profess to be fans of the team.

I would just want to know how trading one player for a better player who has a better expiring contract could be considered to be a bad thing on any planet.  I could understand if we gave up a pick or a promising young player like Sully or Olynyk, but we basically gave up NOTHING.

Apparently you didn't get the memo that Wallace's number is being retired at the Garden on the 32nd of this month.

[BornReady]

I know why GSW did this trade

But why did ainge do this trade
We don't really gain much
Lee is a better player than Wallace and is paid much more
But both are on 1 year deals so if ainge wanted the money of his books he could have waited for Wallace contract to expire

Unless ainge would maybe use lee as salary filler for a bigger trade

Lee should definitely compete for playing time
As he has proven offence abilities and was an all star fairly recently
This trade is a bit confusing for us
As we are trying to develop our young players and this now further crowds the frontcourt

Maybe ainge did this move to free up playing time for young at the 3 spot
Or perhaps a signal for more trades to happen involving sully, zeller or olynyk

[tarheelsxxiii]

Prolly the 2nd best offensive player on the roster.

[TwinTower14]

Great another over the hill player to take minutes away from youngsters...Enjoy the 40 wins while the teams tanking are laughing all the way to the lottery next year. The Celtics really don't want to compete for a title in the next 20 years...and if they think they can get Durant then hahahahahahaha. I hope Danny isn't that delusional but taking on Lee instead of just letting Wallace expire is just awful. Takes minutes away from youngsters who could tank for us. A strong tank is what's needed not David Lee!

Who's over the hill?

Check his per minute stats. It's pretty much the same as when he was an All Star. And I'm glad that he will take the minutes from the youngsters. He's way better and those youngsters will now have to prove themselves that they can be better than Lee to earn those minutes.

David Lee is 32. That's the only stat I care about. He has someone like Mickey behind him now who Stevens could actually develop into a decent young big and Ainge ends up getting this old man on the team. This team needs no one on the team playing meaningful minutes over the age of 26-28. It's about developing talent that was drafted. Should have just cut Wallace instead.

You're acting like Mickey was some high lottery pick or something?  He was a second round pick that will probably spend time in the D-League.  Lee and Thomas actually give the C's some decent scoring options in the 4th quarter, which this team desperately needs.  I like the deal, really no downside for the C's, they turned a guy that didn't play into a guy that is probably their second or third  best player on the team...

[gpap]

I know why GSW did this trade

But why did ainge do this trade
We don't really gain much
Lee is a better player than Wallace and is paid much more
But both are on 1 year deals so if ainge wanted the money of his books he could have waited for Wallace contract to expire

Unless ainge would maybe use lee as salary filler for a bigger trade

Lee should definitely compete for playing time
As he has proven offence abilities and was an all star fairly recently
This trade is a bit confusing for us
As we are trying to develop our young players and this now further crowds the frontcourt

Maybe ainge did this move to free up playing time for young at the 3 spot
Or perhaps a signal for more trades to happen involving sully, zeller or olynyk

Because he acquired the more talented player out of the deal.

It's not rocket science.

[nickagneta]

Radical notion. With the logjam in the frontcourt, perhaps its Zeller that will be heading out in a trade. Celtics can use Amir Johnson and David Leas centers because in Today's NBA, you can without giving up a game changing  stat line to a center. There's no dominant centers anymore.

C's needed more rebounding and toughness down low and got Amir Johnson.

C's needed more rebounding and high efficiency scoring and got David Lee.

After watching Zeller and Olynyk get dominated on the boards in the playoffs, the team went to a still hurting and out of shape Jared Salinger to give them what the needed down low.

I think Sully showed enough in the playoffs to warrant one more chance but the team wanted him to know his only competition for the slot wasn't going to be just Kelly Olynyk. I think Zeller could be the man heading this offseason rather than Olynyk or Sullinger.

[TwinTower14]

I know why GSW did this trade

But why did ainge do this trade
We don't really gain much
Lee is a better player than Wallace and is paid much more
But both are on 1 year deals so if ainge wanted the money of his books he could have waited for Wallace contract to expire

Unless ainge would maybe use lee as salary filler for a bigger trade

Lee should definitely compete for playing time
As he has proven offence abilities and was an all star fairly recently
This trade is a bit confusing for us
As we are trying to develop our young players and this now further crowds the frontcourt

Maybe ainge did this move to free up playing time for young at the 3 spot
Or perhaps a signal for more trades to happen involving sully, zeller or olynyk

Because he acquired the more talented player out of the deal.

It's not rocket science.

haha...I wouldn't be surprised at all if Lee is back at 18/8 or something around that next season...

[gpap]

Great another over the hill player to take minutes away from youngsters...Enjoy the 40 wins while the teams tanking are laughing all the way to the lottery next year. The Celtics really don't want to compete for a title in the next 20 years...and if they think they can get Durant then hahahahahahaha. I hope Danny isn't that delusional but taking on Lee instead of just letting Wallace expire is just awful. Takes minutes away from youngsters who could tank for us. A strong tank is what's needed not David Lee!

Who's over the hill?

Check his per minute stats. It's pretty much the same as when he was an All Star. And I'm glad that he will take the minutes from the youngsters. He's way better and those youngsters will now have to prove themselves that they can be better than Lee to earn those minutes.

David Lee is 32. That's the only stat I care about. He has someone like Mickey behind him now who Stevens could actually develop into a decent young big and Ainge ends up getting this old man on the team. This team needs no one on the team playing meaningful minutes over the age of 26-28. It's about developing talent that was drafted. Should have just cut Wallace instead.

Nonsense.

The guys who should be playing on the court are guys who can contribute and help us get to the playoffs.

Now if by some slim chance, Mickey contributes more than David Lee, then by all means give Mickey the minutes.

But Lee is a proven commodity, Mickey is not

Also, the idea that anyone over the age of 26-28 should not get minutes is beyond laughable.

[viulo]

Radical notion. With the logjam in the frontcourt, perhaps its Zeller that will be heading out in a trade. Celtics can use Amir Johnson and David Leas centers because in Today's NBA, you can without giving up a game changing Stateline to a center. There's no dominant centers anymore.

C's needed more rebounding and toughness down low and got Amir Johnson.

C's needed more rebounding and high efficiency scoring and got David Lee.

After watching Zeller and Olynyk get dominated on the boards in the playoffs, the team went to a still hurting and out of shape Jared Salinger to give them what the needed down low.

I think Sully showed enough in the playoffs to warrant one more chance but the team wanted him to know his only competition for the slot was Olynyk. I think Zeller could be the man heading this offseason rather than Olynyk or Salinger.

I've thought about that, and I wouldn't be surprised. Although Zeller had a regular regular season and he's good at the p'n'r and not a bad rim protector - not good enough, for me, to guarantee him playing time, but...
It'll probably all depend on what opportunities arise. But I agree with you, in terms of preference I think he's the one DA would probably see leaving.

I'm not so sure about Sully, though, especially because this is a contract year for him. If DA thinks he'll command a huge contract, he might be more willing to trade him in the meantime - especially factoring in all the other stuff: his weight, his injuries...

[LooseCannon]

David Lee = Poor man's Kevin Love.  If you hate Kevin Love, you hate David Lee.  But David Lee has game. 

As far as I can tell, one difference between them is that David Lee seems to be a poor defender who actually tries on defense, but is mystifyingly bad for someone reputed to be a high BBIQ player who hustles, while Kevin Love's bad defense seems to be partly due to a lack of effort, with his unwillingness to put a hand up in someone's face and his desire to prioritize positioning himself for a rebound.

This may seem like an argument that Love is more desirable from a defensive aspect, since his problems seem fixable, but maybe Stevens would rather have someone who plays hard on defense.

[CoachBo]

Great another over the hill player to take minutes away from youngsters...Enjoy the 40 wins while the teams tanking are laughing all the way to the lottery next year. The Celtics really don't want to compete for a title in the next 20 years...and if they think they can get Durant then hahahahahahaha. I hope Danny isn't that delusional but taking on Lee instead of just letting Wallace expire is just awful. Takes minutes away from youngsters who could tank for us. A strong tank is what's needed not David Lee!

Who's over the hill?

Check his per minute stats. It's pretty much the same as when he was an All Star. And I'm glad that he will take the minutes from the youngsters. He's way better and those youngsters will now have to prove themselves that they can be better than Lee to earn those minutes.

David Lee is 32. That's the only stat I care about. He has someone like Mickey behind him now who Stevens could actually develop into a decent young big and Ainge ends up getting this old man on the team. This team needs no one on the team playing meaningful minutes over the age of 26-28. It's about developing talent that was drafted. Should have just cut Wallace instead.

Nonsense.

The guys who should be playing on the court are guys who can contribute and help us get to the playoffs.

Now if by some slim chance, Mickey contributes more than David Lee, then by all means give Mickey the minutes.

But Lee is a proven commodity, Mickey is not

Also, the idea that anyone over the age of 26-28 should not get minutes is beyond laughable.

Easiest TP I've ever given on this board.

This franchise is about winning. Now. That's all I'm interested in, not silly fan hysteria surrounding players who haven't accomplished a thing on the floor - James Young being the latest example.

Win games. Period. Sounds like David Lee can help.

Good.

[mnshyn]

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=oyazz78

Other than the obvious "a significantly productive player" for "non productive player" reason, I'd say this was the biggest thing on Ainge's mind. If Sacramento messes up the Cousins situation, we could easily help them out come trade deadline.

[mctyson]

Radical notion. With the logjam in the frontcourt, perhaps its Zeller that will be heading out in a trade. Celtics can use Amir Johnson and David Leas centers because in Today's NBA, you can without giving up a game changing  stat line to a center. There's no dominant centers anymore.

C's needed more rebounding and toughness down low and got Amir Johnson.

C's needed more rebounding and high efficiency scoring and got David Lee.

After watching Zeller and Olynyk get dominated on the boards in the playoffs, the team went to a still hurting and out of shape Jared Salinger to give them what the needed down low.

I think Sully showed enough in the playoffs to warrant one more chance but the team wanted him to know his only competition for the slot wasn't going to be just Kelly Olynyk. I think Zeller could be the man heading this offseason rather than Olynyk or Sullinger.

I don't think this means that anyone is definitely traded, but it sure does give Danny the flexibility to ship anyone.

[spelz]

I love the trade.  It gives us a veteran presence on the inside who can still score and play in this league.  He will be valuable helping the young bigs.  If it does not work out, Lee will be a valuable trade chip at the trade deadline to a) a contender who wants his inside presence or b) to a team looking to clear cap space.