#DeflateGate (Court of Appeals Reinstates Suspension)

[D.o.s.]

Which is particularly problematic in a situation like this, where it's informally known that every single team does stuff like this: punters paying the ball boys to rough the balls up before games, the infamous Rodgers overinflation/Minny heating the balls up, etc.

Sorry, but that in particular is probably not  true. Kicking balls arrive factory sealed, and teams have allotted time before the game to beat them up as much as they can. All within standard procedure.

That's sourced information. I could have been lied to, of course.

[kozlodoev]

Which is particularly problematic in a situation like this, where it's informally known that every single team does stuff like this: punters paying the ball boys to rough the balls up before games, the infamous Rodgers overinflation/Minny heating the balls up, etc.

Sorry, but that in particular is probably not  true. Kicking balls arrive factory sealed, and teams have allotted time before the game to beat them up as much as they can. All within standard procedure.

That's sourced information. I could have been lied to, of course.

The K ball rules are relatively new, I think (coincide with the Brady/Manning game ball rule change). I just don't see how paying a ball boy to rough up the K balls fits into the timeline.

[D.o.s.]

Oh, ok, no it doesn't apply directly to this story-- that was an example of the various ways that NFL teams all break/have broken this rule over the years.

Roy brought up pine tar earlier in the thread, and to me that's a great corollary to this, in both severity and commonality.

[Roy H.]

About the cell phone, chances are more probable than not that he has naughty slash nude photos of the most famous models of all time, his wife. I would rather upset Roger dodger, than my uber rich ultra hot wife. Who dare disagree.

That's probably why they wanted his phone.

Similarly, although Tom Brady appeared for a requested interview and answered questions voluntarily, he declined to make available any documents or electronic information (including text messages and emails) that we requested, even though those requests were limited to the subject matter of our investigation (such as messages concerning the preparation of game balls, air pressure of balls, inflation of balls or deflation of balls) and we offered to allow Brady’s counsel to screen and control the production so that it would be limited strictly to responsive materials and would not involve our taking possession of Brady’s telephone or other electronic devices.

[kozlodoev]

Oh, ok, no it doesn't apply directly to this story-- that was an example of the various ways that NFL teams all break/have broken this rule over the years.

Roy brought up pine tar earlier in the thread, and to me that's a great corollary to this, in both severity and commonality.

I fully concur that teams probably attempt all sorts of tactics to squeeze an edge. Many of them get away with a finger wag and a minor fine.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

Oh, ok, no it doesn't apply directly to this story-- that was an example of the various ways that NFL teams all break/have broken this rule over the years.

Roy brought up pine tar earlier in the thread, and to me that's a great corollary to this, in both severity and commonality.

I fully concur that teams probably attempt all sorts of tactics to squeeze an edge. Many of them get away with a finger wag and a minor fine.

I don't get the pine tar thing either. I think the rule states that pine tar can't be used beyond 18 inches from the knob of the bat, but what possible advantage could hitters get from pine tar being used that far down the bat anyway? They don't hold the bat down there. And pine tar coming in contact with the ball is not going to help the hitter hit better. But I digress.

[knuckleballer]

About the cell phone, chances are more probable than not that he has naughty slash nude photos of the most famous models of all time, his wife. I would rather upset Roger dodger, than my uber rich ultra hot wife. Who dare disagree.

That's probably why they wanted his phone.

Similarly, although Tom Brady appeared for a requested interview and answered questions voluntarily, he declined to make available any documents or electronic information (including text messages and emails) that we requested, even though those requests were limited to the subject matter of our investigation (such as messages concerning the preparation of game balls, air pressure of balls, inflation of balls or deflation of balls) and we offered to allow Brady’s counsel to screen and control the production so that it would be limited strictly to responsive materials and would not involve our taking possession of Brady’s telephone or other electronic devices.

Do you think that if Brady and his lawyer chose messages concerning the preparation of game balls and air pressure and provided them to Wells and that those messages did not indicate any guilt on his part, that it would have made any difference?  We would be in the same position we are now because there is no way Wells could know if they carefully ignored incriminating messages.  Personally, I think that is an odd statement for Wells to make.  He either had access to all his messages or he didn't.

Politics aside, this is the same criticism people are making of Hillary and her e-mails.  It's useless if the accused gets to pick and choose which messages to release.

That is a lose/lose proposition for Brady and I'm sure that Wells is smart enough to understand that.  Frankly, I think that is a troublesome statement for an independent party to make as incriminating evidence.

[Roy H.]

About the cell phone, chances are more probable than not that he has naughty slash nude photos of the most famous models of all time, his wife. I would rather upset Roger dodger, than my uber rich ultra hot wife. Who dare disagree.

That's probably why they wanted his phone.

Similarly, although Tom Brady appeared for a requested interview and answered questions voluntarily, he declined to make available any documents or electronic information (including text messages and emails) that we requested, even though those requests were limited to the subject matter of our investigation (such as messages concerning the preparation of game balls, air pressure of balls, inflation of balls or deflation of balls) and we offered to allow Brady’s counsel to screen and control the production so that it would be limited strictly to responsive materials and would not involve our taking possession of Brady’s telephone or other electronic devices.

Do you think that if Brady and his lawyer chose messages concerning the preparation of game balls and air pressure and provided them to Wells and that those messages did not indicate any guilt on his part, that it would have made any difference?  We would be in the same position we are now because there is no way Wells could know if they carefully ignored incriminating messages.  Personally, I think that is an odd statement for Wells to make.  He either had access to all his messages or he didn't.

Politics aside, this is the same criticism people are making of Hillary and her e-mails.  It's useless if the accused gets to pick and choose which messages to release.

That is a lose/lose proposition for Brady and I'm sure that Wells is smart enough to understand that.  Frankly, I think that is an odd statement for an independent party to make as incriminating evidence.

If Brady had turned over the requested emails, I think that Wells would have taken Brady's attorney at his word, and the report would have been silent about non-compliance.  Now, if the turned over materials didn't include the text messages gotten from the two training staff employees, there might have been follow up and repercussions, but if Brady's attorney gave everything, I doubt it would be an issue.

[knuckleballer]

About the cell phone, chances are more probable than not that he has naughty slash nude photos of the most famous models of all time, his wife. I would rather upset Roger dodger, than my uber rich ultra hot wife. Who dare disagree.

That's probably why they wanted his phone.

Similarly, although Tom Brady appeared for a requested interview and answered questions voluntarily, he declined to make available any documents or electronic information (including text messages and emails) that we requested, even though those requests were limited to the subject matter of our investigation (such as messages concerning the preparation of game balls, air pressure of balls, inflation of balls or deflation of balls) and we offered to allow Brady’s counsel to screen and control the production so that it would be limited strictly to responsive materials and would not involve our taking possession of Brady’s telephone or other electronic devices.

Do you think that if Brady and his lawyer chose messages concerning the preparation of game balls and air pressure and provided them to Wells and that those messages did not indicate any guilt on his part, that it would have made any difference?  We would be in the same position we are now because there is no way Wells could know if they carefully ignored incriminating messages.  Personally, I think that is an odd statement for Wells to make.  He either had access to all his messages or he didn't.

Politics aside, this is the same criticism people are making of Hillary and her e-mails.  It's useless if the accused gets to pick and choose which messages to release.

That is a lose/lose proposition for Brady and I'm sure that Wells is smart enough to understand that.  Frankly, I think that is an odd statement for an independent party to make as incriminating evidence.

If Brady had turned over the requested emails, I think that Wells would have taken Brady's attorney at his word, and the report would have been silent about non-compliance.  Now, if the turned over materials didn't include the text messages gotten from the two training staff employees, there might have been follow up and repercussions, but if Brady's attorney gave everything, I doubt it would be an issue.

I don't understand.  How could Wells know if Brady and his lawyer gave over everything?  We don't even know if Brady had any electronic messages on this subject at all prior to Jan 19 and Wells already had those texts received by Jastremski. 

[kozlodoev]

That is a lose/lose proposition for Brady and I'm sure that Wells is smart enough to understand that.  Frankly, I think that is an odd statement for an independent party to make as incriminating evidence.

If you think THAT is an odd statement, you should take a glance at the Jonathan Martin report, where Ted Wells is playing a shrink, football pundit, and legal expert all at the same time. This should quickly address any illusions about his "independence".

If Brady had turned over the requested emails, I think that Wells would have taken Brady's attorney at his word, and the report would have been silent about non-compliance.  Now, if the turned over materials didn't include the text messages gotten from the two training staff employees, there might have been follow up and repercussions, but if Brady's attorney gave everything, I doubt it would be an issue.

All communication "limited" to the preparation of game balls. That's awfully broad.

[knuckleballer]

That is a lose/lose proposition for Brady and I'm sure that Wells is smart enough to understand that.  Frankly, I think that is an odd statement for an independent party to make as incriminating evidence.

If you think THAT is an odd statement, you should take a glance at the Jonathan Martin report, where Ted Wells is playing a shrink, football pundit, and legal expert all at the same time. This should quickly address any illusions about his "independence".

If Brady had turned over the requested emails, I think that Wells would have taken Brady's attorney at his word, and the report would have been silent about non-compliance.  Now, if the turned over materials didn't include the text messages gotten from the two training staff employees, there might have been follow up and repercussions, but if Brady's attorney gave everything, I doubt it would be an issue.

All communication "limited" to the preparation of game balls. That's awfully broad.

The thing that bothered me about the Incognito/Martin report is that is I lived in a fraternity house for three years and heard that kind of banter (maybe not quite that bad, but close) on a daily basis between friends.  There's a saying that when men socialize, they insult each other, but don't mean it.  While women compliment each other, but don't mean it.  The reality is, the closer guys are, the crueler  and cruder those insults become particularly in a fraternity house or a football locker room.

[kozlodoev]

The thing that bothered me about the Incognito/Martin report is that is I lived in a fraternity house for three years and heard that kind of banter (maybe not quite that bad, but close) on a daily basis between friends.  There's a saying that when men socialize, they insult each other, but don't mean it.  While women compliment each other, but don't mean it.  The reality is, the closer guys are, the crueler  and cruder those insults become particularly in a fraternity house or a football locker room.

That, and the general tone was clearly out of line. One paragraph he's making football evaluations, the next he's prescribing appropriate workplace procedures or assessing Martin's mental state. Not something I expect in an independent investigation looking to establish fact.

[knuckleballer]

The thing that bothered me about the Incognito/Martin report is that is I lived in a fraternity house for three years and heard that kind of banter (maybe not quite that bad, but close) on a daily basis between friends.  There's a saying that when men socialize, they insult each other, but don't mean it.  While women compliment each other, but don't mean it.  The reality is, the closer guys are, the crueler  and cruder those insults become particularly in a fraternity house or a football locker room.

That, and the general tone was clearly out of line. One paragraph he's making football evaluations, the next he's prescribing appropriate workplace procedures or assessing Martin's mental state. Not something I expect in an independent investigation looking to establish fact.

Back to the Deflategate case, Wells listened to McNally and Jastremski's explanation about the needle reference which they claim to be a running joke about when Jastremski only provided McNally one needle for both a gauge and an air pump which he provided to the refs making it awkward for them.  Wells declared that as more probable than not as not true.  How on Earth can he make that determination?  It's a perfectly reasonable explanation, but somehow he has the ability to see into the hearts and minds of two men he just met and determine that they are both lying and the truth must be something sinister?  Seriously?  Are we really expected to believe that is the determination of someone without an agenda?

[Eja117]

About the cell phone, chances are more probable than not that he has naughty slash nude photos of the most famous models of all time, his wife. I would rather upset Roger dodger, than my uber rich ultra hot wife. Who dare disagree.

That's probably why they wanted his phone.

Similarly, although Tom Brady appeared for a requested interview and answered questions voluntarily, he declined to make available any documents or electronic information (including text messages and emails) that we requested, even though those requests were limited to the subject matter of our investigation (such as messages concerning the preparation of game balls, air pressure of balls, inflation of balls or deflation of balls) and we offered to allow Brady’s counsel to screen and control the production so that it would be limited strictly to responsive materials and would not involve our taking possession of Brady’s telephone or other electronic devices.

I think he would have said "This is incomplete. I need your phone", because either you have a guy's phone or you don't. 

[PhoSita]

It sounds to me like Brady's camp felt like the report was going to come out against them one way or another, so it wasn't going to help them any by handing over e-mails and text messages, etc.  Why take on the headache with little to gain and much to lose?