#DeflateGate (Court of Appeals Reinstates Suspension)

[Smokeeye123]

The fun continues:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/23/nfl-issues-statement-on-deflategate-investigation/

So they've interviewed 40 people and neither of them was named Tom Brady. Can't say I'm impressed.

I was, however, hoping to see more about the specific levels of (under)inflation.

The best part is in the comments, where someone does the math.

What does it say about the collective iq of the American public, spending two weeks threshing over what could be explained with 5 minutes of arithmetic?

P = nRT/V
 The change in pressure is thus proportional to the change in temperature,
 The 75 degree locker room has an absolute temperature of 297o K
 The 40 degree playing field has an absolute temperature of 283o K
The change in temperature of 14o K will thus cause a drop in pressure of 14/297 = 4.7%.
 To translate this into a pressure change we must recall that football pressure is measured in gauge pressure, relative to the atmospheric pressure of 15 psi. So the absolute pressure within a football pumped to 13 psi is 13 +15 = 28psi absolute. The 4.7% drop applied to the absolute pressure gives a drop of 1.32 psi. Thus, the pressure within the football at game time will be only 13 -1.32 = 11.68 psi and thus well below regulation gauge pressure of 12.5-13.5psi. If they were just at 12.5psi to start they would be down by 1.3psi to 11.2psi by game time. And of course, a little pressure is lost every time you stick a needle in to check the pressure. Some guy on TV did this calculation but I think he forgot about absolute pressure vs gauge pressure and underestimated it.
 It thus seems highly likely that the Patriots equipment manager checked all 12 balls in a warm locker room and they lost pressure merely by cooling off on the field. In addition, the cold rain would have accelerated the heat transfer out of the balls. Finally, if the indoor inflation air was very humid, there would be an additional loss of pressure due to water vapor condensation on the inside of the bladder as the temperature of the football dropped.

TP, that was very informative.

Where did you get that quote?  Seems like this is the most logical explanation of what happened.

Thats all very scientific and all but why then were the Colts balls not deflated?

[kozlodoev]

Thats all very scientific and all but why then were the Colts balls not deflated?

1. Could have been inflated in a colder room (or outside) to begin with.
2. Could have been inflated to max pressure.
3. Some combination of 1. and 2.

[D Dub]

The fun continues:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/23/nfl-issues-statement-on-deflategate-investigation/

So they've interviewed 40 people and neither of them was named Tom Brady. Can't say I'm impressed.

I was, however, hoping to see more about the specific levels of (under)inflation.

The best part is in the comments, where someone does the math.

What does it say about the collective iq of the American public, spending two weeks threshing over what could be explained with 5 minutes of arithmetic?

P = nRT/V
 The change in pressure is thus proportional to the change in temperature,
 The 75 degree locker room has an absolute temperature of 297o K
 The 40 degree playing field has an absolute temperature of 283o K
The change in temperature of 14o K will thus cause a drop in pressure of 14/297 = 4.7%.
 To translate this into a pressure change we must recall that football pressure is measured in gauge pressure, relative to the atmospheric pressure of 15 psi. So the absolute pressure within a football pumped to 13 psi is 13 +15 = 28psi absolute. The 4.7% drop applied to the absolute pressure gives a drop of 1.32 psi. Thus, the pressure within the football at game time will be only 13 -1.32 = 11.68 psi and thus well below regulation gauge pressure of 12.5-13.5psi. If they were just at 12.5psi to start they would be down by 1.3psi to 11.2psi by game time. And of course, a little pressure is lost every time you stick a needle in to check the pressure. Some guy on TV did this calculation but I think he forgot about absolute pressure vs gauge pressure and underestimated it.
 It thus seems highly likely that the Patriots equipment manager checked all 12 balls in a warm locker room and they lost pressure merely by cooling off on the field. In addition, the cold rain would have accelerated the heat transfer out of the balls. Finally, if the indoor inflation air was very humid, there would be an additional loss of pressure due to water vapor condensation on the inside of the bladder as the temperature of the football dropped.

TP, that was very informative.

Where did you get that quote?  Seems like this is the most logical explanation of what happened.

thanks back at ya. 
it came from the comments section on kozlodoev's NFL page link above, just some fan who remembers high school physics.   

I'll be interesting to see if the NFL's investigators also get around to sharing their math, or stick with the un-founded accusation thing. 

Thats all very scientific and all but why then were the Colts balls not deflated?

The Pats admitted their balls started at the minimum, 12.5psi.  Do we know what the starting PSI was of the Colts ball?

We also don't know the relative humidity of either locker rooms at the time of inflation, another legitimate variable to the physics involved.

[Quetzalcoatl]

Thats all very scientific and all but why then were the Colts balls not deflated?

1. Could have been inflated in a colder room (or outside) to begin with.
2. Could have been inflated to max pressure.
3. Some combination of 1. and 2.

Or 4.) they were ratting on the Patriots since November and figured this would be when the NFL would look into their accusations, so they went out of their way to make sure their balls were up to code that week

[kozlodoev]

A very basic back-of-the-envelope math in Excel shows that accounting solely for temperature changes (so assuming constant humidity), if the temperature on the field was 50F, a ball inflated to 13.5 will still be at regulation pressure if it was inflated at temperatures of 68.5F or cooler.

Correspondingly, a ball that was inflated to 12.5 will lose 1 PSI if it were inflated at 69.25 degrees, and 2 PSI if it were inflated at 90F.

My point is that I can easily see the Pats taking the ball inflation process to, say, an 80F laundry room, which is likely to result in about a 1.5 PSI drop in game conditions -- something that is technically not  against the letter of the law, but to which the team will never admit publicly.

[D.o.s.]

Correct -- the NFL isn't pushing this. Media outlets who don't want to start Super Bowl coverage until this monday are doing it.

The NFL is clearly trying to give the fans the impression that they are doing due diligence on any cheating allegations. Still not sure if they want to find anything or not though.

Fixed that for you. 

Um no, if the colts had complained and they'd just said "who cares shut up" then the only way there is any fan/media uproar is if the colts use the fans and media to leverage the nfl into doing something.

This started before the fans or media knew anything and the only 3 parties who knew anything were the Pats (if they actually were deflating balls), the Colts and the NFL. One of those parties WANTED the fans to know about this. Which one do you think it is?

It was the Colts. We know this, because we know the chain of operations in this case:
http://www.newsday.com/sports/football/super-bowl/nfl-opens-patriots-deflated-football-probe-after-afc-championship-win-1.9821346

According to a person familiar with the background of the matter, the Colts first noticed something unusual after an interception by Colts linebacker D’Qwell Jackson in the second quarter. Jackson gave the ball to a member of the Colts' equipment staff, who noticed the ball seemed underinflated and then notified coach Chuck Pagano.

General manager Ryan Grigson was notified in the press box, and he contacted Mike Kensil, NFL director of football operations. Kensil then told the on-field officials at halftime, when the Patriots led 17-7.

And we know that The NFL did not leak the infomation to a local Indianapolis reporter, WTHR's Bob Kravitz, who was the first one to share it with the general public:
https://twitter.com/bkravitz/status/557053826415755265

Out of your three groups, which one seems the most likely to share that info with that reporter? If you don't answer the Colts, you might want to stop playing football, as your brain may already be showing signs of damage. 

[littleteapot]

It was the Colts. We know this, because we know the chain of operations in this case:
http://www.newsday.com/sports/football/super-bowl/nfl-opens-patriots-deflated-football-probe-after-afc-championship-win-1.9821346

According to a person familiar with the background of the matter, the Colts first noticed something unusual after an interception by Colts linebacker D’Qwell Jackson in the second quarter. Jackson gave the ball to a member of the Colts' equipment staff, who noticed the ball seemed underinflated and then notified coach Chuck Pagano.

General manager Ryan Grigson was notified in the press box, and he contacted Mike Kensil, NFL director of football operations. Kensil then told the on-field officials at halftime, when the Patriots led 17-7.

And we know that The NFL did not leak the infomation to a local Indianapolis reporter, WTHR's Bob Kravitz, who was the first one to share it with the general public:
https://twitter.com/bkravitz/status/557053826415755265

Out of your three groups, which one seems the most likely to share that info with that reporter? If you don't answer the Colts, you might want to stop playing football, as your brain may already be showing signs of damage. 

I'm saying it was the Colts. I'm saying the Colts thought the Pats were cheating so the told the NFL and leveraged the public and now the NFL is at least giving the impression that they are doing something about it for the sake of the team that is pressuring them.

This should be in direct contradiction to your point that this was all just manufactured by the media so they can manufacture fan outrage.

A very basic back-of-the-envelope math in Excel shows that accounting solely for temperature changes (so assuming constant humidity), if the temperature on the field was 50F, a ball inflated to 13.5 will still be at regulation pressure if it was inflated at temperatures of 68.5F or cooler.

Correspondingly, a ball that was inflated to 12.5 will lose 1 PSI if it were inflated at 69.25 degrees, and 2 PSI if it were inflated at 90F.

My point is that I can easily see the Pats taking the ball inflation process to, say, an 80F laundry room, which is likely to result in about a 1.5 PSI drop in game conditions -- something that is technically not  against the letter of the law, but to which the team will never admit publicly.

Based on what we know now I think this is most likely what happened.

[D.o.s.]

It was the Colts. We know this, because we know the chain of operations in this case:
http://www.newsday.com/sports/football/super-bowl/nfl-opens-patriots-deflated-football-probe-after-afc-championship-win-1.9821346

According to a person familiar with the background of the matter, the Colts first noticed something unusual after an interception by Colts linebacker D’Qwell Jackson in the second quarter. Jackson gave the ball to a member of the Colts' equipment staff, who noticed the ball seemed underinflated and then notified coach Chuck Pagano.

General manager Ryan Grigson was notified in the press box, and he contacted Mike Kensil, NFL director of football operations. Kensil then told the on-field officials at halftime, when the Patriots led 17-7.

And we know that The NFL did not leak the infomation to a local Indianapolis reporter, WTHR's Bob Kravitz, who was the first one to share it with the general public:
https://twitter.com/bkravitz/status/557053826415755265

Out of your three groups, which one seems the most likely to share that info with that reporter? If you don't answer the Colts, you might want to stop playing football, as your brain may already be showing signs of damage. 

I'm saying it was the Colts. I'm saying the Colts thought the Pats were cheating so the told the NFL and leveraged the public and now the NFL is at least giving the impression that they are doing something about it for the sake of the team that is pressuring them.

This should be in direct contradiction to your point that this was all just manufactured by the media so they can manufacture fan outrage.

Sorry, I misunderstood, but the NFL isn't making things public to placate the Colts. It's a fundamental mistake to think so on your part.

[littleteapot]

Sorry, I misunderstood, but the NFL isn't making things public to placate the Colts. It's a fundamental mistake to think so on your part.

No I think the NFL is openly and (ostensibly) thoroughly investigating this to placate the Colts. Not to placate the fans.

[D.o.s.]

Yeah, I'm aware that you think that. That's the fundamental mistake I was referring to.

It appears we've reached "yes it is/no it isn't," though, so I'll give you a TP and look forward to a deflategate free weekend. Cheers!

[rondohondo]

ESPN is really dumb. They start sportscenter saying someone stole 2 lbs of air from the football. That's your lead anchor ESPN, good to know they know what they are talking about ........

[GreenFaith1819]

ESPN is really dumb. They start sportscenter saying someone stole 2 lbs of air from the football. That's your lead anchor ESPN, good to know they know what they are talking about ........

The sad thing is that it seems as if ESPN started going south as far as Sports Journalism - as soon as Stuart Scott started getting sick and lessening his appearances.

I remember the days when he and Rich Eisen just reported on Sports and facts...not controversy and rumors. Those days are long gone

Sure - Mr. Scott was very dramatic...lively, whatever. But it just seemed to me he had a lot of credence to his reporting.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

ESPN is really dumb. They start sportscenter saying someone stole 2 lbs of air from the football. That's your lead anchor ESPN, good to know they know what they are talking about ........

The sad thing is that it seems as if ESPN started going south as far as Sports Journalism - as soon as Stuart Scott started getting sick and lessening his appearances.

I remember the days when he and Rich Eisen just reported on Sports and facts...not controversy and rumors. Those days are long gone

Sure - Mr. Scott was very dramatic...lively, whatever. But it just seemed to me he had a lot of credence to his reporting.

Funny you should mention Scott, because I was just thinking about him. His early death was unfortunate, but I never liked his anchoring style—over the top, and I always felt that he was trying to be funny (like many earlier SC anchors such as Kilborn) but just wasn't.

[GreenFaith1819]

ESPN is really dumb. They start sportscenter saying someone stole 2 lbs of air from the football. That's your lead anchor ESPN, good to know they know what they are talking about ........

The sad thing is that it seems as if ESPN started going south as far as Sports Journalism - as soon as Stuart Scott started getting sick and lessening his appearances.

I remember the days when he and Rich Eisen just reported on Sports and facts...not controversy and rumors. Those days are long gone

Sure - Mr. Scott was very dramatic...lively, whatever. But it just seemed to me he had a lot of credence to his reporting.

Funny you should mention Scott, because I was just thinking about him. His early death was unfortunate, but I never liked his anchoring style—over the top, and I always felt that he was trying to be funny (like many earlier SC anchors such as Kilborn) but just wasn't.

I remember Stuart as being as trailblazer...he paved the way for the Shaq's, Charles, etc - to be comfortable on TV speaking the way they wanted. Stuart was bold...he was comfortable in his own skin back during a time in TV when that wasn't looked at fondly.

And he didn't do The Decision.

And I just don't remember him in the middle of mess like DeflateGate and others, lol.

As bold as his style was, he always had a sense of realness to it - unlike the stuff we're seeing with DeflateGate.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

ESPN is really dumb. They start sportscenter saying someone stole 2 lbs of air from the football. That's your lead anchor ESPN, good to know they know what they are talking about ........

The sad thing is that it seems as if ESPN started going south as far as Sports Journalism - as soon as Stuart Scott started getting sick and lessening his appearances.

I remember the days when he and Rich Eisen just reported on Sports and facts...not controversy and rumors. Those days are long gone

Sure - Mr. Scott was very dramatic...lively, whatever. But it just seemed to me he had a lot of credence to his reporting.

Funny you should mention Scott, because I was just thinking about him. His early death was unfortunate, but I never liked his anchoring style—over the top, and I always felt that he was trying to be funny (like many earlier SC anchors such as Kilborn) but just wasn't.

I remember Stuart as being as trailblazer...he paved the way for the Shaq's, Charles, etc - to be comfortable on TV speaking the way they wanted. Stuart was bold...he was comfortable in his own skin back during a time in TV when that wasn't looked at fondly.

And he didn't do The Decision.

And I just don't remember him in the middle of mess like DeflateGate and others, lol.

As bold as his style was, he always had a sense of realness to it - unlike the stuff we're seeing with DeflateGate.

He definitely wasn't a sensationalist—as you said, he wasn't part of the The Decision or any other junk like that. I just didn't think he was funny.