If I had a chance to trade Smart For Elfrid Peyton I would do it in a heartbeat

[GetLucky]

Hes ahead of Marcus Smart for sure , for the position they are playing....i mean you cant really argue that. Its virtually impossible to say Marcus is a better point guard. All he does is taking three pointers, which he hasnt been that great at.

Could you please back up your assertions with empirical evidence?

If we do an apples to apples comparison based on their rookie season so far, how would their numbers look?  I'll show you.

Sources -- NBA Reference.com:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smartma01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paytoel01.html

Keep in mind that they have played in/started a different number of games, so we will normalize their stats to a per game basis

Rookie seasons:
Marcus Smart
54 games played 7.94 ppg 2p% 39.4 3p% 34.1 eFG% 46.3 FT% 65.7 Steals 1.33 Assists 3.4 TO 1.4 Rebounds 3.4

Elfrid Payton
71 games played 8.7 ppg 2p% 43.9 3p% 25.0 eFG% 43.5 FT% 53.2 Steals 1.6 Assists 6.2 TO 2.5 Rebounds 4.1

Just looking at the pure statistics from an impartial point of view, Payton has played in more games, but his ppg average is less than 1 point more.  Payton shoots 4% better from 2 point range, but his 3 point percentage is significantly worse at 9% worse.  Payton has a worse shooting stroke at the FT line by about 12%.  He gets slightly more steals at .3 better, and slightly more rebounds at .7 better.  He enjoys a higher assist rate, but both take care of the ball well, having about a 2 to 1 assist to TO rate.

To me, from a statistical point of view, Marcus Smart has superior accuracy from range and from the free throw line.  And these numbers are improving as the season comes along.  This suggest to me that Smart will be the better long range shooter.  I'll take a good 3 ball over a long 2 any time.  Statistics show that eFG-wise and TS% wise, that a good 3-ball is more valuable than a good 2-ball.

Those are the per-game rates.  Now what if we normalize them to per 36?
The percentages don't change, but here's how the productivity would look.

Per 36 Smart 10.8 ppg 4.6 apg 1.8 spg 4.6 rpg .3 bpg 1.9 to
Per 36 Payton 10.7 ppg 7.6 apg 1.9 spg 5.1 rpg .2 bpg 3.0 to

The points scored, steals, rebounds, and blocks become virtually identical per 36.  Peyton enjoys the assist advantage but also turns the ball over significantly more.

These are different players for sure, but I can't say I could give a definitive edge to either player from a statistical standpoint.  Payton enjoys the assist advantage but he also turns the ball over more.  Smart enjoys a shooting advantage from long range and a higher eFG and FT percentage which are both positive indicators of a better overall shooter.

To me it's pretty much a draw when you add up all their pros and cons.  When the statistics match up so evenly, it's a matter of personal preference.  I love the intangibles that Marcus Smart brings on top of his basketball production.  Right now he is playing more off the ball and is not the main handler as much, but there is room to grow there.  What I love though is the bulldog mentality he brings to the PG position and the entire team defensively.

I can respect that you love Elfrid Payton and even prefer him over Marcus Smart for the things that you like about him.  But I cannot agree with your opinion that Payton is head and shoulders above Smart at this point in time.  From an empirical point of view they are neck and neck, and from the standpoint that higher rates of 3p%, FT%, and eFG% are better indicators of shooting prowess than 2p% alone, I would disagree with your assessment that Payton is the better shooter.  To me, Smart right now IS the better shooter, and looks more likely to become the better shooter down the road.

I'm very happy with the Marcus Smart pick and look forward to his future development as a Boston Celtic.

Celtic Bloggers

Look at this post this guy above just made

This is a great example of a "Statistic Warrior"

Does not figure in the player himself, just looks at statistics.

A true pathetic way of proving who is a better player.

Uncalled for. I will never understand how easily differences of opinion over inconsequential issues turn into personal animosity.

it is not opinion, I will not hate on anyone's opinion...I will hate the fact that the usage of stats tells the whole story.....

We should already know that is not true at all.

You can go to a gym today, and watch a player score 55 points, and one players score 8 points, both 6'6 , both same age, and you could still find the player who scored 8 points to be better...

its an in depth analysis...

Only die hard homer fans will do anything possible to convince themselves and others that there player is better , etc.

It's something I have hated for years. Nobody can rationalize one bit, its all bias.

Find something, anything reachable to put your argument in the forefront.

Opinions are welcome, i dont hate them because I have them too, and I can be right or wrong as can the other person.

But when someone is obviously putting on those homer glasses. Its hard to even have a discussion.

Wait, let me get his right. You're accusing a fan of being biased towards a player, yet you scold him for using quantifiable data and statistics to back up his point? What have you done to prove your point?

All you've done is say "Marcus Smart = Marcus Banks I win lol"

What I find baffling is that Marcus is a total "intangibles" player where the stats don't tell the whole story. His defense is hard to quantify, as is his toughness and simple will to win. Several times have I read on this blog people say, "Marcus had a statistically bad performance but he was clearly one of the most important guys in this win." So you're building up Peyton as this "super duper stat-defying player" while ignoring the fact that Smart is among the same lines. Combine that with the fact that Smart is statistically better in every category except for assists, and you get a pretty well-backed-up point.

[mahcus smaht]

Hes ahead of Marcus Smart for sure , for the position they are playing....i mean you cant really argue that. Its virtually impossible to say Marcus is a better point guard. All he does is taking three pointers, which he hasnt been that great at.

Could you please back up your assertions with empirical evidence?

If we do an apples to apples comparison based on their rookie season so far, how would their numbers look?  I'll show you.

Sources -- NBA Reference.com:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smartma01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paytoel01.html

Keep in mind that they have played in/started a different number of games, so we will normalize their stats to a per game basis

Rookie seasons:
Marcus Smart
54 games played 7.94 ppg 2p% 39.4 3p% 34.1 eFG% 46.3 FT% 65.7 Steals 1.33 Assists 3.4 TO 1.4 Rebounds 3.4

Elfrid Payton
71 games played 8.7 ppg 2p% 43.9 3p% 25.0 eFG% 43.5 FT% 53.2 Steals 1.6 Assists 6.2 TO 2.5 Rebounds 4.1

Just looking at the pure statistics from an impartial point of view, Payton has played in more games, but his ppg average is less than 1 point more.  Payton shoots 4% better from 2 point range, but his 3 point percentage is significantly worse at 9% worse.  Payton has a worse shooting stroke at the FT line by about 12%.  He gets slightly more steals at .3 better, and slightly more rebounds at .7 better.  He enjoys a higher assist rate, but both take care of the ball well, having about a 2 to 1 assist to TO rate.

To me, from a statistical point of view, Marcus Smart has superior accuracy from range and from the free throw line.  And these numbers are improving as the season comes along.  This suggest to me that Smart will be the better long range shooter.  I'll take a good 3 ball over a long 2 any time.  Statistics show that eFG-wise and TS% wise, that a good 3-ball is more valuable than a good 2-ball.

Those are the per-game rates.  Now what if we normalize them to per 36?
The percentages don't change, but here's how the productivity would look.

Per 36 Smart 10.8 ppg 4.6 apg 1.8 spg 4.6 rpg .3 bpg 1.9 to
Per 36 Payton 10.7 ppg 7.6 apg 1.9 spg 5.1 rpg .2 bpg 3.0 to

The points scored, steals, rebounds, and blocks become virtually identical per 36.  Peyton enjoys the assist advantage but also turns the ball over significantly more.

These are different players for sure, but I can't say I could give a definitive edge to either player from a statistical standpoint.  Payton enjoys the assist advantage but he also turns the ball over more.  Smart enjoys a shooting advantage from long range and a higher eFG and FT percentage which are both positive indicators of a better overall shooter.

To me it's pretty much a draw when you add up all their pros and cons.  When the statistics match up so evenly, it's a matter of personal preference.  I love the intangibles that Marcus Smart brings on top of his basketball production.  Right now he is playing more off the ball and is not the main handler as much, but there is room to grow there.  What I love though is the bulldog mentality he brings to the PG position and the entire team defensively.

I can respect that you love Elfrid Payton and even prefer him over Marcus Smart for the things that you like about him.  But I cannot agree with your opinion that Payton is head and shoulders above Smart at this point in time.  From an empirical point of view they are neck and neck, and from the standpoint that higher rates of 3p%, FT%, and eFG% are better indicators of shooting prowess than 2p% alone, I would disagree with your assessment that Payton is the better shooter.  To me, Smart right now IS the better shooter, and looks more likely to become the better shooter down the road.

I'm very happy with the Marcus Smart pick and look forward to his future development as a Boston Celtic.

Celtic Bloggers

Look at this post this guy above just made

This is a great example of a "Statistic Warrior"

Does not figure in the player himself, just looks at statistics.

A true pathetic way of proving who is a better player.

Uncalled for. I will never understand how easily differences of opinion over inconsequential issues turn into personal animosity.

it is not opinion, I will not hate on anyone's opinion...I will hate the fact that the usage of stats tells the whole story.....

We should already know that is not true at all.

You can go to a gym today, and watch a player score 55 points, and one players score 8 points, both 6'6 , both same age, and you could still find the player who scored 8 points to be better...

its an in depth analysis...

Only die hard homer fans will do anything possible to convince themselves and others that there player is better , etc.

It's something I have hated for years. Nobody can rationalize one bit, its all bias.

Find something, anything reachable to put your argument in the forefront.

Opinions are welcome, i dont hate them because I have them too, and I can be right or wrong as can the other person.

But when someone is obviously putting on those homer glasses. Its hard to even have a discussion.

A couple threads ago I posted a link to a "rim protection" metric which suggested nerlens Noel was like the 16th best rim protector in the league. If you had this same stats criticism for that post it would be reasonable I pulled a random stat out of my ass despite the fact that the eye test and every other metric disagreed.i disagree with you in several areas
1. He is using stats not to assert dominance of one player only to suggest that they are statistically similar enough that there isn't necessarily a clear cut answer only that it comes down to the eye test and personal preference.
2. Stats are the best argument Payton has. marcus is lauded for his intangibles and if you watch the cs a lot you surely realize that he has hit a lot of big shots for us this year, on top of this his best attributes defensivelyisnt grabbing steals but it is forcingTOs, frustrating players and drawing offensive fouls. None of these were taken into the statistical analysis. Lastly Payton has been injury free and is in a system where he can do whatever he wants. Smart plays within a system and I believe was encouraged to play in a way not necessarily conducive to his strengths.
3. Why would you be such a Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.? He had his opinion and he posted a well thought out response and you got mad. It's a bit hypocritical because I believe you posted about some of his recent performances by boning his stat line in those games

[celtics2030]

Dude...you just dont listen do you

STATS mean nothing,,,,,in both cases yes it means nothing...

Smart does things that other players dont , this is true, and I KNOW it, i watch him

But Elfrid does things Smart doesnt, you want to keep up bringing stats.....fine thats your and his way of doing everything possible to prove a point. The point being look he has better stats.


Well im telling you this.

Peyton has great driving ability, amazing passing skills, very good finisher at the basket, great vision, good handle, good leader....can rebound, can defend very well....


What you guys are doing is pointing at statistics to prove who is better...

how ridiculous does that sound, especially with two rookies...........

Put it this way , without trying to be harsh to that statistical guy..

He is proving nothing about what player is better, he is providing a regular fans point of view, he might not even know how to analyze a basketball player to see certain skillsets, abilities, and what he can get better at...

he just looks at per 36 minutes, and thinks this is the evidence needed....

its assassine.

Stop analyzing like a fan, and try using a scouts perspective. And take those green goggles off.

You want to talk stats?

Take Peyton's last 5 games and Marcus's.....

How about triple doubles, Peyton just had 2 games which trumph anything Marcus has done this year in terms of "STATS"

See its easy to statistically rate players........but it means nothing to my point...we are talking about players abilities, and potential.

[celtics2030]

Hes ahead of Marcus Smart for sure , for the position they are playing....i mean you cant really argue that. Its virtually impossible to say Marcus is a better point guard. All he does is taking three pointers, which he hasnt been that great at.

Could you please back up your assertions with empirical evidence?

If we do an apples to apples comparison based on their rookie season so far, how would their numbers look?  I'll show you.

Sources -- NBA Reference.com:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smartma01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paytoel01.html

Keep in mind that they have played in/started a different number of games, so we will normalize their stats to a per game basis

Rookie seasons:
Marcus Smart
54 games played 7.94 ppg 2p% 39.4 3p% 34.1 eFG% 46.3 FT% 65.7 Steals 1.33 Assists 3.4 TO 1.4 Rebounds 3.4

Elfrid Payton
71 games played 8.7 ppg 2p% 43.9 3p% 25.0 eFG% 43.5 FT% 53.2 Steals 1.6 Assists 6.2 TO 2.5 Rebounds 4.1

Just looking at the pure statistics from an impartial point of view, Payton has played in more games, but his ppg average is less than 1 point more.  Payton shoots 4% better from 2 point range, but his 3 point percentage is significantly worse at 9% worse.  Payton has a worse shooting stroke at the FT line by about 12%.  He gets slightly more steals at .3 better, and slightly more rebounds at .7 better.  He enjoys a higher assist rate, but both take care of the ball well, having about a 2 to 1 assist to TO rate.

To me, from a statistical point of view, Marcus Smart has superior accuracy from range and from the free throw line.  And these numbers are improving as the season comes along.  This suggest to me that Smart will be the better long range shooter.  I'll take a good 3 ball over a long 2 any time.  Statistics show that eFG-wise and TS% wise, that a good 3-ball is more valuable than a good 2-ball.

Those are the per-game rates.  Now what if we normalize them to per 36?
The percentages don't change, but here's how the productivity would look.

Per 36 Smart 10.8 ppg 4.6 apg 1.8 spg 4.6 rpg .3 bpg 1.9 to
Per 36 Payton 10.7 ppg 7.6 apg 1.9 spg 5.1 rpg .2 bpg 3.0 to

The points scored, steals, rebounds, and blocks become virtually identical per 36.  Peyton enjoys the assist advantage but also turns the ball over significantly more.

These are different players for sure, but I can't say I could give a definitive edge to either player from a statistical standpoint.  Payton enjoys the assist advantage but he also turns the ball over more.  Smart enjoys a shooting advantage from long range and a higher eFG and FT percentage which are both positive indicators of a better overall shooter.

To me it's pretty much a draw when you add up all their pros and cons.  When the statistics match up so evenly, it's a matter of personal preference.  I love the intangibles that Marcus Smart brings on top of his basketball production.  Right now he is playing more off the ball and is not the main handler as much, but there is room to grow there.  What I love though is the bulldog mentality he brings to the PG position and the entire team defensively.

I can respect that you love Elfrid Payton and even prefer him over Marcus Smart for the things that you like about him.  But I cannot agree with your opinion that Payton is head and shoulders above Smart at this point in time.  From an empirical point of view they are neck and neck, and from the standpoint that higher rates of 3p%, FT%, and eFG% are better indicators of shooting prowess than 2p% alone, I would disagree with your assessment that Payton is the better shooter.  To me, Smart right now IS the better shooter, and looks more likely to become the better shooter down the road.

I'm very happy with the Marcus Smart pick and look forward to his future development as a Boston Celtic.

Celtic Bloggers

Look at this post this guy above just made

This is a great example of a "Statistic Warrior"

Does not figure in the player himself, just looks at statistics.

A true pathetic way of proving who is a better player.

Uncalled for. I will never understand how easily differences of opinion over inconsequential issues turn into personal animosity.

it is not opinion, I will not hate on anyone's opinion...I will hate the fact that the usage of stats tells the whole story.....

We should already know that is not true at all.

You can go to a gym today, and watch a player score 55 points, and one players score 8 points, both 6'6 , both same age, and you could still find the player who scored 8 points to be better...

its an in depth analysis...

Only die hard homer fans will do anything possible to convince themselves and others that there player is better , etc.

It's something I have hated for years. Nobody can rationalize one bit, its all bias.

Find something, anything reachable to put your argument in the forefront.

Opinions are welcome, i dont hate them because I have them too, and I can be right or wrong as can the other person.

But when someone is obviously putting on those homer glasses. Its hard to even have a discussion.

A couple threads ago I posted a link to a "rim protection" metric which suggested nerlens Noel was like the 16th best rim protector in the league. If you had this same stats criticism for that post it would be reasonable I pulled a random stat out of my ass despite the fact that the eye test and every other metric disagreed.i disagree with you in several areas
1. He is using stats not to assert dominance of one player only to suggest that they are statistically similar enough that there isn't necessarily a clear cut answer only that it comes down to the eye test and personal preference.
2. Stats are the best argument Payton has. marcus is lauded for his intangibles and if you watch the cs a lot you surely realize that he has hit a lot of big shots for us this year, on top of this his best attributes defensivelyisnt grabbing steals but it is forcingTOs, frustrating players and drawing offensive fouls. None of these were taken into the statistical analysis. Lastly Payton has been injury free and is in a system where he can do whatever he wants. Smart plays within a system and I believe was encouraged to play in a way not necessarily conducive to his strengths.
3. Why would you be such a ****? He had his opinion and he posted a well thought out response and you got mad. It's a bit hypocritical because I believe you posted about some of his recent performances by boning his stat line in those games

I dont have to read your baseless aregument

all i had to see was "All Peyton has is his stats"

Your just a typical nba fan.....sorry i had to write an entire paragraph to you since you will not understand it, it is completely pointless.

[Ilikesports17]

Hes ahead of Marcus Smart for sure , for the position they are playing....i mean you cant really argue that. Its virtually impossible to say Marcus is a better point guard. All he does is taking three pointers, which he hasnt been that great at.

Could you please back up your assertions with empirical evidence?

If we do an apples to apples comparison based on their rookie season so far, how would their numbers look?  I'll show you.

Sources -- NBA Reference.com:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smartma01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paytoel01.html

Keep in mind that they have played in/started a different number of games, so we will normalize their stats to a per game basis

Rookie seasons:
Marcus Smart
54 games played 7.94 ppg 2p% 39.4 3p% 34.1 eFG% 46.3 FT% 65.7 Steals 1.33 Assists 3.4 TO 1.4 Rebounds 3.4

Elfrid Payton
71 games played 8.7 ppg 2p% 43.9 3p% 25.0 eFG% 43.5 FT% 53.2 Steals 1.6 Assists 6.2 TO 2.5 Rebounds 4.1

Just looking at the pure statistics from an impartial point of view, Payton has played in more games, but his ppg average is less than 1 point more.  Payton shoots 4% better from 2 point range, but his 3 point percentage is significantly worse at 9% worse.  Payton has a worse shooting stroke at the FT line by about 12%.  He gets slightly more steals at .3 better, and slightly more rebounds at .7 better.  He enjoys a higher assist rate, but both take care of the ball well, having about a 2 to 1 assist to TO rate.

To me, from a statistical point of view, Marcus Smart has superior accuracy from range and from the free throw line.  And these numbers are improving as the season comes along.  This suggest to me that Smart will be the better long range shooter.  I'll take a good 3 ball over a long 2 any time.  Statistics show that eFG-wise and TS% wise, that a good 3-ball is more valuable than a good 2-ball.

Those are the per-game rates.  Now what if we normalize them to per 36?
The percentages don't change, but here's how the productivity would look.

Per 36 Smart 10.8 ppg 4.6 apg 1.8 spg 4.6 rpg .3 bpg 1.9 to
Per 36 Payton 10.7 ppg 7.6 apg 1.9 spg 5.1 rpg .2 bpg 3.0 to

The points scored, steals, rebounds, and blocks become virtually identical per 36.  Peyton enjoys the assist advantage but also turns the ball over significantly more.

These are different players for sure, but I can't say I could give a definitive edge to either player from a statistical standpoint.  Payton enjoys the assist advantage but he also turns the ball over more.  Smart enjoys a shooting advantage from long range and a higher eFG and FT percentage which are both positive indicators of a better overall shooter.

To me it's pretty much a draw when you add up all their pros and cons.  When the statistics match up so evenly, it's a matter of personal preference.  I love the intangibles that Marcus Smart brings on top of his basketball production.  Right now he is playing more off the ball and is not the main handler as much, but there is room to grow there.  What I love though is the bulldog mentality he brings to the PG position and the entire team defensively.

I can respect that you love Elfrid Payton and even prefer him over Marcus Smart for the things that you like about him.  But I cannot agree with your opinion that Payton is head and shoulders above Smart at this point in time.  From an empirical point of view they are neck and neck, and from the standpoint that higher rates of 3p%, FT%, and eFG% are better indicators of shooting prowess than 2p% alone, I would disagree with your assessment that Payton is the better shooter.  To me, Smart right now IS the better shooter, and looks more likely to become the better shooter down the road.

I'm very happy with the Marcus Smart pick and look forward to his future development as a Boston Celtic.

Celtic Bloggers

Look at this post this guy above just made

This is a great example of a "Statistic Warrior"

Does not figure in the player himself, just looks at statistics.

A true pathetic way of proving who is a better player.

Uncalled for. I will never understand how easily differences of opinion over inconsequential issues turn into personal animosity.

it is not opinion, I will not hate on anyone's opinion...I will hate the fact that the usage of stats tells the whole story.....

We should already know that is not true at all.

You can go to a gym today, and watch a player score 55 points, and one players score 8 points, both 6'6 , both same age, and you could still find the player who scored 8 points to be better...

its an in depth analysis...

Only die hard homer fans will do anything possible to convince themselves and others that there player is better , etc.

It's something I have hated for years. Nobody can rationalize one bit, its all bias.

Find something, anything reachable to put your argument in the forefront.

Opinions are welcome, i dont hate them because I have them too, and I can be right or wrong as can the other person.

But when someone is obviously putting on those homer glasses. Its hard to even have a discussion.

A couple threads ago I posted a link to a "rim protection" metric which suggested nerlens Noel was like the 16th best rim protector in the league. If you had this same stats criticism for that post it would be reasonable I pulled a random stat out of my ass despite the fact that the eye test and every other metric disagreed.i disagree with you in several areas
1. He is using stats not to assert dominance of one player only to suggest that they are statistically similar enough that there isn't necessarily a clear cut answer only that it comes down to the eye test and personal preference.
2. Stats are the best argument Payton has. marcus is lauded for his intangibles and if you watch the cs a lot you surely realize that he has hit a lot of big shots for us this year, on top of this his best attributes defensivelyisnt grabbing steals but it is forcingTOs, frustrating players and drawing offensive fouls. None of these were taken into the statistical analysis. Lastly Payton has been injury free and is in a system where he can do whatever he wants. Smart plays within a system and I believe was encouraged to play in a way not necessarily conducive to his strengths.
3. Why would you be such a ****? He had his opinion and he posted a well thought out response and you got mad. It's a bit hypocritical because I believe you posted about some of his recent performances by boning his stat line in those games

I dont have to read your baseless aregument

all i had to see was "All Peyton has is his stats"

Your just a typical nba fan.....sorry i had to write an entire paragraph to you since you will not understand it, it is completely pointless.

Well, that's curious because in order to get to that point in his "aregument" you would have to read the entire thing. Even then, he never said that. He said that Peyton's best argument is stats. I think this is probably the case. I would argue that Marcus's intangibles and his impact not reflected in the box score is greater than any other rookie in the NBA.

People on C's blog tend to bring up stats because if they say I like a player because he does this and that well, those who disagree will attack, saying that's just the green goggles shining through. To prevent this they say, I think this guys better and the stats prove me right. The guy you attacked (previously) was just stating that here my opinion and the stats don't necessarily disagree. That seems quite reasonable to me.

Lastly, stop acting like you are superior to the "typical NBA fan", it makes you look like the typical D- bag

[GetLucky]

Dude...you just dont listen do you

STATS mean nothing,,,,,in both cases yes it means nothing...

Smart does things that other players dont , this is true, and I KNOW it, i watch him

But Elfrid does things Smart doesnt, you want to keep up bringing stats.....fine thats your and his way of doing everything possible to prove a point. The point being look he has better stats.


Well im telling you this.

Peyton has great driving ability, amazing passing skills, very good finisher at the basket, great vision, good handle, good leader....can rebound, can defend very well....


What you guys are doing is pointing at statistics to prove who is better...

how ridiculous does that sound, especially with two rookies...........

Put it this way , without trying to be harsh to that statistical guy..

He is proving nothing about what player is better, he is providing a regular fans point of view, he might not even know how to analyze a basketball player to see certain skillsets, abilities, and what he can get better at...

he just looks at per 36 minutes, and thinks this is the evidence needed....

its assassine.

Stop analyzing like a fan, and try using a scouts perspective. And take those green goggles off.

You want to talk stats?

Take Peyton's last 5 games and Marcus's.....

How about triple doubles, Peyton just had 2 games which trumph anything Marcus has done this year in terms of "STATS"

See its easy to statistically rate players........but it means nothing to my point...we are talking about players abilities, and potential.

If you're a front office employee, we're all wrong, and we're all "regular fans" who can't possibly see what you're seeing. But completely dismissing statistics is just, to quote you, asinine. Stats don't matter? Tell that to the Celtics' analytics-based front office and coaching staff. Tell that to the Hawks and Warriors whose offenses and defenses are predicated on the most efficient shots and most statistically-disrupting help patterns.

You're telling us that stats don't matter and to look at the intangibles. Marcus is superior in intangibles. Peyton can't shoot. Peyton plays on a significantly worse team. People are trying to tell you this with well-researched points, and you dismiss them because Peyton has the special sauce that Marcus doesn't. To use your example, you're the guy that falls in love with a player at the YMCA and cuts an AAU player because they "don't have what the other guy has."

[KGs Knee]

STATS mean nothing

Statements like these aren't going to to help you prove your point to very many people. If you can't back up your assertions with verifiable evidence people just aren't going to lend your opinion much credence. Stats aren't everything, and don't tell the whole story, but to dismiss them out of hand is absurd. And interestingly enough, it's the stats that would seem to suggest Payton is having the better season. You seem to be contradicting yourself a bit here.

But beyond that, the overall disrespectful tone you've taken in this thread will most certainly cause you to lose any credibility. It's just unnecessary.


Outside of that, I would say Payton has had the slightly better rookie season, overall. And the stats others have posted in this thread seem to bear that out.  He is a bit ahead in his early development, but I think that's partly a byproduct of the fact Payton has been given more minutes and a much more freedom to do as he pleases on the court.

But one thing is clear, Smart and Payton are completely different players. They share very little in style of play. Payton has shown himself to be a better playmaker/passer, but Smart has shown himself to be a better scorer/shooter. The numbers don't necessarily bear out Smart being the better scorer, per se, but watching the two play, it is clear Smart has more scoring ability. Smart, while barely average at this point, is still a much better shooter. Watch Smart's mechanics compared to Payton's, the difference is night and day. Smart has a shooting stroke that suggests when he learns better shot selection he will be at the very least a good shooter. Payton has shooting mechanics that are very bad, and will take immense amounts of work to fix.

On the defensive end, I'd give Smart an edge also, but it's marginal. Both are good defenders, albeit a bit different.  Payton uses his quickness and lateral mobility to gets steal and disrupt passing lanes, while Smart uses his strength and tenacity to cause chaos and play his man one-on-one.

[mrceltic]

Dude...you just dont listen do you

STATS mean nothing,,,,,in both cases yes it means nothing...

Smart does things that other players dont , this is true, and I KNOW it, i watch him

But Elfrid does things Smart doesnt, you want to keep up bringing stats.....fine thats your and his way of doing everything possible to prove a point. The point being look he has better stats.


Well im telling you this.

Peyton has great driving ability, amazing passing skills, very good finisher at the basket, great vision, good handle, good leader....can rebound, can defend very well....


What you guys are doing is pointing at statistics to prove who is better...

how ridiculous does that sound, especially with two rookies...........

Put it this way , without trying to be harsh to that statistical guy..

He is proving nothing about what player is better, he is providing a regular fans point of view, he might not even know how to analyze a basketball player to see certain skillsets, abilities, and what he can get better at...

he just looks at per 36 minutes, and thinks this is the evidence needed....

its assassine.

Stop analyzing like a fan, and try using a scouts perspective. And take those green goggles off.

You want to talk stats?

Take Peyton's last 5 games and Marcus's.....

How about triple doubles, Peyton just had 2 games which trumph anything Marcus has done this year in terms of "STATS"

See its easy to statistically rate players........but it means nothing to my point...we are talking about players abilities, and potential.

Allergic tonumbers,aren't we?
BREAKING NEWS:
Scouts use stats. Live with it.


You were gushing about Elfrid putting up triple doubles.Guess what? So did Rondo.  And Michael Carter-Williams.(not a knock on Rondo though)

An eyetest gives Elfrid has a slight advantage on offense, and Marcus a landslide winner on defense.


Can't make judgment about playmaking though, as the Celtics focus on ball movement rather than the traditional point guard system.

In the end, we are playing for a playoff spot while orlando is headed for the lottery while relatively having the better roster.

Advantage: Celtics 

[LarBrd33]

Peyton has definitely been better than Smart this year.  Will be interesting to see what happens long-term.

Still annoyed that the 76ers were able to trade Jrue Holiday for Nerlens Noel and Elfrid Peyton.  I would have gladly traded Rondo for Noel alone, but they ended up getting the Peyton pick out of it too.  Sure, they then traded Peyton for Dario Sarik and Orlando's 2017 1st, but it's hard not to see Noel and Peyton's rookie dominance and not get a little peeved at the blown opportunity. 

Granted, I've brought this up in the past and others have mentioned that Jrue Holiday probably had significantly more trade value than post-injury Rondo with 2 years left on his contract, but I'm not so sure that's true.  Rondo had yet to be exposed at that point.  He was still thought to be an all-star level player.  His trade value couldn't have been that much worse.

[jpotter33]

Hes ahead of Marcus Smart for sure , for the position they are playing....i mean you cant really argue that. Its virtually impossible to say Marcus is a better point guard. All he does is taking three pointers, which he hasnt been that great at.

Could you please back up your assertions with empirical evidence?

If we do an apples to apples comparison based on their rookie season so far, how would their numbers look?  I'll show you.

Sources -- NBA Reference.com:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smartma01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paytoel01.html

Keep in mind that they have played in/started a different number of games, so we will normalize their stats to a per game basis

Rookie seasons:
Marcus Smart
54 games played 7.94 ppg 2p% 39.4 3p% 34.1 eFG% 46.3 FT% 65.7 Steals 1.33 Assists 3.4 TO 1.4 Rebounds 3.4

Elfrid Payton
71 games played 8.7 ppg 2p% 43.9 3p% 25.0 eFG% 43.5 FT% 53.2 Steals 1.6 Assists 6.2 TO 2.5 Rebounds 4.1

Just looking at the pure statistics from an impartial point of view, Payton has played in more games, but his ppg average is less than 1 point more.  Payton shoots 4% better from 2 point range, but his 3 point percentage is significantly worse at 9% worse.  Payton has a worse shooting stroke at the FT line by about 12%.  He gets slightly more steals at .3 better, and slightly more rebounds at .7 better.  He enjoys a higher assist rate, but both take care of the ball well, having about a 2 to 1 assist to TO rate.

To me, from a statistical point of view, Marcus Smart has superior accuracy from range and from the free throw line.  And these numbers are improving as the season comes along.  This suggest to me that Smart will be the better long range shooter.  I'll take a good 3 ball over a long 2 any time.  Statistics show that eFG-wise and TS% wise, that a good 3-ball is more valuable than a good 2-ball.

Those are the per-game rates.  Now what if we normalize them to per 36?
The percentages don't change, but here's how the productivity would look.

Per 36 Smart 10.8 ppg 4.6 apg 1.8 spg 4.6 rpg .3 bpg 1.9 to
Per 36 Payton 10.7 ppg 7.6 apg 1.9 spg 5.1 rpg .2 bpg 3.0 to

The points scored, steals, rebounds, and blocks become virtually identical per 36.  Peyton enjoys the assist advantage but also turns the ball over significantly more.

These are different players for sure, but I can't say I could give a definitive edge to either player from a statistical standpoint.  Payton enjoys the assist advantage but he also turns the ball over more.  Smart enjoys a shooting advantage from long range and a higher eFG and FT percentage which are both positive indicators of a better overall shooter.

To me it's pretty much a draw when you add up all their pros and cons.  When the statistics match up so evenly, it's a matter of personal preference.  I love the intangibles that Marcus Smart brings on top of his basketball production.  Right now he is playing more off the ball and is not the main handler as much, but there is room to grow there.  What I love though is the bulldog mentality he brings to the PG position and the entire team defensively.

I can respect that you love Elfrid Payton and even prefer him over Marcus Smart for the things that you like about him.  But I cannot agree with your opinion that Payton is head and shoulders above Smart at this point in time.  From an empirical point of view they are neck and neck, and from the standpoint that higher rates of 3p%, FT%, and eFG% are better indicators of shooting prowess than 2p% alone, I would disagree with your assessment that Payton is the better shooter.  To me, Smart right now IS the better shooter, and looks more likely to become the better shooter down the road.

I'm very happy with the Marcus Smart pick and look forward to his future development as a Boston Celtic.

Good analysis, TP.

EP is clearly more advanced in several areas than Smart, i.e. ball handling, penetrating and dishing, finishing with the floater, etc.  But the same can be said about Smart's shooting, BBIQ, and defense, too.

Personally, trying to compare the two this early in as different situations as they're in is silly. They're two different players totally. EP really reminds me of Rondo the more I watch him, but he can be better if he works on his shot, which is horrid right now. It's hard to say who Smart is like right now, because his game is still evolving as we go along. He's driving and penetrating so much more now than at the beginning of the year, so it'll probably take another year or so to really see where his career and style of play will head.

Dude, the same cannot be said for shooting, Smart is not a great shooter by any means.....

what is his finishing rate at the basket, what is he shooting this month from deep.......give me a break with this...

All you have to do is watch these guys play

Marcus is not there, at least not yet, Peyton is already playing at starting point guard level........hes a "rising" star to many

Enough with this statistical crap. Dont fall into this statistical bull.

I just watched EP shoot 4-15 from the free throw line, airball a corner three by two feet, and have one of the ugliest shots with a weird rotation that I've ever seen. Smart might not be a "great" shooter, but he's years ahead of EP.

[jpotter33]

Dude...you just dont listen do you

STATS mean nothing,,,,,in both cases yes it means nothing...

Smart does things that other players dont , this is true, and I KNOW it, i watch him

But Elfrid does things Smart doesnt, you want to keep up bringing stats.....fine thats your and his way of doing everything possible to prove a point. The point being look he has better stats.


Well im telling you this.

Peyton has great driving ability, amazing passing skills, very good finisher at the basket, great vision, good handle, good leader....can rebound, can defend very well....


What you guys are doing is pointing at statistics to prove who is better...

how ridiculous does that sound, especially with two rookies...........

Put it this way , without trying to be harsh to that statistical guy..

He is proving nothing about what player is better, he is providing a regular fans point of view, he might not even know how to analyze a basketball player to see certain skillsets, abilities, and what he can get better at...

he just looks at per 36 minutes, and thinks this is the evidence needed....

its assassine.

Stop analyzing like a fan, and try using a scouts perspective. And take those green goggles off.

You want to talk stats?

Take Peyton's last 5 games and Marcus's.....

How about triple doubles, Peyton just had 2 games which trumph anything Marcus has done this year in terms of "STATS"

See its easy to statistically rate players........but it means nothing to my point...we are talking about players abilities, and potential.

I think I found the issue here lol

[KGs Knee]

On another note, who the heck is Elfrid Peyton? Never heard of him, so I doubt he is better than Marcus Smart.

Elfrid Payton, on the other hand, well that is an actual NBA player.

[mrceltic]

Dude...you just dont listen do you

STATS mean nothing,,,,,in both cases yes it means nothing...

Smart does things that other players dont , this is true, and I KNOW it, i watch him

But Elfrid does things Smart doesnt, you want to keep up bringing stats.....fine thats your and his way of doing everything possible to prove a point. The point being look he has better stats.


Well im telling you this.

Peyton has great driving ability, amazing passing skills, very good finisher at the basket, great vision, good handle, good leader....can rebound, can defend very well....


What you guys are doing is pointing at statistics to prove who is better...

how ridiculous does that sound, especially with two rookies...........

Put it this way , without trying to be harsh to that statistical guy..

He is proving nothing about what player is better, he is providing a regular fans point of view, he might not even know how to analyze a basketball player to see certain skillsets, abilities, and what he can get better at...

he just looks at per 36 minutes, and thinks this is the evidence needed....

its assassine.

Stop analyzing like a fan, and try using a scouts perspective. And take those green goggles off.

You want to talk stats?

Take Peyton's last 5 games and Marcus's.....

How about triple doubles, Peyton just had 2 games which trumph anything Marcus has done this year in terms of "STATS"

See its easy to statistically rate players........but it means nothing to my point...we are talking about players abilities, and potential.

I think I found the issue here lol

Entertaining as hell though. rofl

[MBunge]

but it's hard not to see Noel and Peyton's rookie dominance and not get a little peeved at the blown opportunity. 

I don't think the word "dominance" means what you think it means.

Mike

[hwangjini_1]

Hat tip to celtics2030 comment which nails it.
Just wanted to add that MS is much stronger: they are roughly the same height (Smart is 2 cm taller) but Smart is 25 kgs heavier, which is for the most part muscles.

Get out of here with that metric system crap! This is America!  lol jk jk

Seriously, though, like no one I know in the States can really fluently use the metric system. Is it the same way in other parts of the world with our imperial system of measurement?

Link: http://mentalfloss.com/article/55895/countries-havent-adopted-metric-system

In the world today, the only countries NOT on the metric system are:
- US
- Liberia
- Burma

That's it. The US system of measurements is hideously complicated, unwieldy, and outdate.

Quick, add 1 foot 7 inches, 1 yard 14 inches, and 2 feet 11 inches. Or, try adding 2 lbs 12 oz with 17 ounces, with 3 lbs 9 ounces. By the way, how may ounces in a quart? gallon? pint? and having 1 1/2 quarts, 3 gallons, and 5 pints gives you how many ounces?

Now try adding 1 meter 3 centimeters, 2 meters 40 centimeters, and 24 centimeters.

the difference and ease of use is glaringly apparent. having lived in both the US and metric-based countries, it is hands down better to live in a system with a metric system.

aside from "but it's all i know and its inconvenient to learn something new" i have yet to see any reasons for the US to not convert. i wish they would, life would be easier for everyone.

if the US was using the metric system now, and someone suggested a switch to the "foot/inch" system, everyone who think this person is nuts for trying to change to such a painfully complex system and away from a globally accepted, easier system.