If I had a chance to trade Smart For Elfrid Peyton I would do it in a heartbeat

[Greyman]

Hat tip to celtics2030 comment which nails it.
Just wanted to add that MS is much stronger: they are roughly the same height (Smart is 2 cm taller) but Smart is 25 kgs heavier, which is for the most part muscles.

Is there anywhere else that still uses the Imperial system? Though I always use it for people's height, nothing else.

Smart is a keeper as he might improve in a way that means you don't want him playing against you. I think there is a good chance of this.

[celtics2030]

Hes ahead of Marcus Smart for sure , for the position they are playing....i mean you cant really argue that. Its virtually impossible to say Marcus is a better point guard. All he does is taking three pointers, which he hasnt been that great at.

Could you please back up your assertions with empirical evidence?

If we do an apples to apples comparison based on their rookie season so far, how would their numbers look?  I'll show you.

Sources -- NBA Reference.com:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smartma01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paytoel01.html

Keep in mind that they have played in/started a different number of games, so we will normalize their stats to a per game basis

Rookie seasons:
Marcus Smart
54 games played 7.94 ppg 2p% 39.4 3p% 34.1 eFG% 46.3 FT% 65.7 Steals 1.33 Assists 3.4 TO 1.4 Rebounds 3.4

Elfrid Payton
71 games played 8.7 ppg 2p% 43.9 3p% 25.0 eFG% 43.5 FT% 53.2 Steals 1.6 Assists 6.2 TO 2.5 Rebounds 4.1

Just looking at the pure statistics from an impartial point of view, Payton has played in more games, but his ppg average is less than 1 point more.  Payton shoots 4% better from 2 point range, but his 3 point percentage is significantly worse at 9% worse.  Payton has a worse shooting stroke at the FT line by about 12%.  He gets slightly more steals at .3 better, and slightly more rebounds at .7 better.  He enjoys a higher assist rate, but both take care of the ball well, having about a 2 to 1 assist to TO rate.

To me, from a statistical point of view, Marcus Smart has superior accuracy from range and from the free throw line.  And these numbers are improving as the season comes along.  This suggest to me that Smart will be the better long range shooter.  I'll take a good 3 ball over a long 2 any time.  Statistics show that eFG-wise and TS% wise, that a good 3-ball is more valuable than a good 2-ball.

Those are the per-game rates.  Now what if we normalize them to per 36?
The percentages don't change, but here's how the productivity would look.

Per 36 Smart 10.8 ppg 4.6 apg 1.8 spg 4.6 rpg .3 bpg 1.9 to
Per 36 Payton 10.7 ppg 7.6 apg 1.9 spg 5.1 rpg .2 bpg 3.0 to

The points scored, steals, rebounds, and blocks become virtually identical per 36.  Peyton enjoys the assist advantage but also turns the ball over significantly more.

These are different players for sure, but I can't say I could give a definitive edge to either player from a statistical standpoint.  Payton enjoys the assist advantage but he also turns the ball over more.  Smart enjoys a shooting advantage from long range and a higher eFG and FT percentage which are both positive indicators of a better overall shooter.

To me it's pretty much a draw when you add up all their pros and cons.  When the statistics match up so evenly, it's a matter of personal preference.  I love the intangibles that Marcus Smart brings on top of his basketball production.  Right now he is playing more off the ball and is not the main handler as much, but there is room to grow there.  What I love though is the bulldog mentality he brings to the PG position and the entire team defensively.

I can respect that you love Elfrid Payton and even prefer him over Marcus Smart for the things that you like about him.  But I cannot agree with your opinion that Payton is head and shoulders above Smart at this point in time.  From an empirical point of view they are neck and neck, and from the standpoint that higher rates of 3p%, FT%, and eFG% are better indicators of shooting prowess than 2p% alone, I would disagree with your assessment that Payton is the better shooter.  To me, Smart right now IS the better shooter, and looks more likely to become the better shooter down the road.

I'm very happy with the Marcus Smart pick and look forward to his future development as a Boston Celtic.

Celtic Bloggers

Look at this post this guy above just made

This is a great example of a "Statistic Warrior"

Does not figure in the player himself, just looks at statistics.

A true pathetic way of proving who is a better player.

[celtics2030]

Hes ahead of Marcus Smart for sure , for the position they are playing....i mean you cant really argue that. Its virtually impossible to say Marcus is a better point guard. All he does is taking three pointers, which he hasnt been that great at.

Could you please back up your assertions with empirical evidence?

If we do an apples to apples comparison based on their rookie season so far, how would their numbers look?  I'll show you.

Sources -- NBA Reference.com:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smartma01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paytoel01.html

Keep in mind that they have played in/started a different number of games, so we will normalize their stats to a per game basis

Rookie seasons:
Marcus Smart
54 games played 7.94 ppg 2p% 39.4 3p% 34.1 eFG% 46.3 FT% 65.7 Steals 1.33 Assists 3.4 TO 1.4 Rebounds 3.4

Elfrid Payton
71 games played 8.7 ppg 2p% 43.9 3p% 25.0 eFG% 43.5 FT% 53.2 Steals 1.6 Assists 6.2 TO 2.5 Rebounds 4.1

Just looking at the pure statistics from an impartial point of view, Payton has played in more games, but his ppg average is less than 1 point more.  Payton shoots 4% better from 2 point range, but his 3 point percentage is significantly worse at 9% worse.  Payton has a worse shooting stroke at the FT line by about 12%.  He gets slightly more steals at .3 better, and slightly more rebounds at .7 better.  He enjoys a higher assist rate, but both take care of the ball well, having about a 2 to 1 assist to TO rate.

To me, from a statistical point of view, Marcus Smart has superior accuracy from range and from the free throw line.  And these numbers are improving as the season comes along.  This suggest to me that Smart will be the better long range shooter.  I'll take a good 3 ball over a long 2 any time.  Statistics show that eFG-wise and TS% wise, that a good 3-ball is more valuable than a good 2-ball.

Those are the per-game rates.  Now what if we normalize them to per 36?
The percentages don't change, but here's how the productivity would look.

Per 36 Smart 10.8 ppg 4.6 apg 1.8 spg 4.6 rpg .3 bpg 1.9 to
Per 36 Payton 10.7 ppg 7.6 apg 1.9 spg 5.1 rpg .2 bpg 3.0 to

The points scored, steals, rebounds, and blocks become virtually identical per 36.  Peyton enjoys the assist advantage but also turns the ball over significantly more.

These are different players for sure, but I can't say I could give a definitive edge to either player from a statistical standpoint.  Payton enjoys the assist advantage but he also turns the ball over more.  Smart enjoys a shooting advantage from long range and a higher eFG and FT percentage which are both positive indicators of a better overall shooter.

To me it's pretty much a draw when you add up all their pros and cons.  When the statistics match up so evenly, it's a matter of personal preference.  I love the intangibles that Marcus Smart brings on top of his basketball production.  Right now he is playing more off the ball and is not the main handler as much, but there is room to grow there.  What I love though is the bulldog mentality he brings to the PG position and the entire team defensively.

I can respect that you love Elfrid Payton and even prefer him over Marcus Smart for the things that you like about him.  But I cannot agree with your opinion that Payton is head and shoulders above Smart at this point in time.  From an empirical point of view they are neck and neck, and from the standpoint that higher rates of 3p%, FT%, and eFG% are better indicators of shooting prowess than 2p% alone, I would disagree with your assessment that Payton is the better shooter.  To me, Smart right now IS the better shooter, and looks more likely to become the better shooter down the road.

I'm very happy with the Marcus Smart pick and look forward to his future development as a Boston Celtic.

Good analysis, TP.

EP is clearly more advanced in several areas than Smart, i.e. ball handling, penetrating and dishing, finishing with the floater, etc.  But the same can be said about Smart's shooting, BBIQ, and defense, too.

Personally, trying to compare the two this early in as different situations as they're in is silly. They're two different players totally. EP really reminds me of Rondo the more I watch him, but he can be better if he works on his shot, which is horrid right now. It's hard to say who Smart is like right now, because his game is still evolving as we go along. He's driving and penetrating so much more now than at the beginning of the year, so it'll probably take another year or so to really see where his career and style of play will head.

Dude, the same cannot be said for shooting, Smart is not a great shooter by any means.....

what is his finishing rate at the basket, what is he shooting this month from deep.......give me a break with this...

All you have to do is watch these guys play

Marcus is not there, at least not yet, Peyton is already playing at starting point guard level........hes a "rising" star to many

Enough with this statistical crap. Dont fall into this statistical bull.

[MBunge]

Hes ahead of Marcus Smart for sure , for the position they are playing....i mean you cant really argue that. Its virtually impossible to say Marcus is a better point guard. All he does is taking three pointers, which he hasnt been that great at.

Could you please back up your assertions with empirical evidence?

If we do an apples to apples comparison based on their rookie season so far, how would their numbers look?  I'll show you.

Sources -- NBA Reference.com:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smartma01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paytoel01.html

Keep in mind that they have played in/started a different number of games, so we will normalize their stats to a per game basis

Rookie seasons:
Marcus Smart
54 games played 7.94 ppg 2p% 39.4 3p% 34.1 eFG% 46.3 FT% 65.7 Steals 1.33 Assists 3.4 TO 1.4 Rebounds 3.4

Elfrid Payton
71 games played 8.7 ppg 2p% 43.9 3p% 25.0 eFG% 43.5 FT% 53.2 Steals 1.6 Assists 6.2 TO 2.5 Rebounds 4.1

Just looking at the pure statistics from an impartial point of view, Payton has played in more games, but his ppg average is less than 1 point more.  Payton shoots 4% better from 2 point range, but his 3 point percentage is significantly worse at 9% worse.  Payton has a worse shooting stroke at the FT line by about 12%.  He gets slightly more steals at .3 better, and slightly more rebounds at .7 better.  He enjoys a higher assist rate, but both take care of the ball well, having about a 2 to 1 assist to TO rate.

To me, from a statistical point of view, Marcus Smart has superior accuracy from range and from the free throw line.  And these numbers are improving as the season comes along.  This suggest to me that Smart will be the better long range shooter.  I'll take a good 3 ball over a long 2 any time.  Statistics show that eFG-wise and TS% wise, that a good 3-ball is more valuable than a good 2-ball.

Those are the per-game rates.  Now what if we normalize them to per 36?
The percentages don't change, but here's how the productivity would look.

Per 36 Smart 10.8 ppg 4.6 apg 1.8 spg 4.6 rpg .3 bpg 1.9 to
Per 36 Payton 10.7 ppg 7.6 apg 1.9 spg 5.1 rpg .2 bpg 3.0 to

The points scored, steals, rebounds, and blocks become virtually identical per 36.  Peyton enjoys the assist advantage but also turns the ball over significantly more.

These are different players for sure, but I can't say I could give a definitive edge to either player from a statistical standpoint.  Payton enjoys the assist advantage but he also turns the ball over more.  Smart enjoys a shooting advantage from long range and a higher eFG and FT percentage which are both positive indicators of a better overall shooter.

To me it's pretty much a draw when you add up all their pros and cons.  When the statistics match up so evenly, it's a matter of personal preference.  I love the intangibles that Marcus Smart brings on top of his basketball production.  Right now he is playing more off the ball and is not the main handler as much, but there is room to grow there.  What I love though is the bulldog mentality he brings to the PG position and the entire team defensively.

I can respect that you love Elfrid Payton and even prefer him over Marcus Smart for the things that you like about him.  But I cannot agree with your opinion that Payton is head and shoulders above Smart at this point in time.  From an empirical point of view they are neck and neck, and from the standpoint that higher rates of 3p%, FT%, and eFG% are better indicators of shooting prowess than 2p% alone, I would disagree with your assessment that Payton is the better shooter.  To me, Smart right now IS the better shooter, and looks more likely to become the better shooter down the road.

I'm very happy with the Marcus Smart pick and look forward to his future development as a Boston Celtic.

Good analysis, TP.

EP is clearly more advanced in several areas than Smart, i.e. ball handling, penetrating and dishing, finishing with the floater, etc.  But the same can be said about Smart's shooting, BBIQ, and defense, too.

Personally, trying to compare the two this early in as different situations as they're in is silly. They're two different players totally. EP really reminds me of Rondo the more I watch him, but he can be better if he works on his shot, which is horrid right now. It's hard to say who Smart is like right now, because his game is still evolving as we go along. He's driving and penetrating so much more now than at the beginning of the year, so it'll probably take another year or so to really see where his career and style of play will head.

Dude, the same cannot be said for shooting, Smart is not a great shooter by any means.....

what is his finishing rate at the basket, what is he shooting this month from deep.......give me a break with this...

All you have to do is watch these guys play

Marcus is not there, at least not yet, Peyton is already playing at starting point guard level........hes a "rising" star to many

Enough with this statistical crap. Dont fall into this statistical bull.

How many Orlando Magic games have you seen this year?

Mike

[Celtics4ever]

They would not trade him so it is moot.

[CeltsAcumen]

So you would trade for a young rondo who cannot shoot 3s, cannot shoot free throws and is really a defensive liability outside of guarding certain sized point guards?

Peyton's shot is TERRIBLE, his rotation is so bad I am shocked he ever hits open shots at all.

Smart is a way better player and prospect.

Grass is greener I guess.

[nostar]

I wouldn't make the trade. Smart can guard 3 positions, Payton can't. That is a very underrated skill in today's NBA. See Jae Crowder for an example of why this is useful.

Furthermore their per-36 numbers aren't that different. 11/5/5 vs 11/8/5. Where Payton has the edge in assists, Smart has a better TS%, a better 3PT% and a lower TO%. I could (and probably would) make an argument that Steven's system has the affect of lowering the assist rate (and TO%) of the PG in that system.

I think that idea that it's an obvious choice is a little silly. Orlando got a steal in Payton at #10. I think that Smart's physical tools make him the better player overall, especially because his actually has a 3pt shot. The NBA almost requires guards to shoot 30% from 3 these days otherwise they are ignored off the ball.

Payton might be the next Rajon Rondo. He can't shoot from 3 or from the line. Smart at least has some juice from 3. I'd keep Smart if put to it.

[manl_lui]

this is my opinion and I have no legit facts backing me up. Just based on observation from games I watched

this is a hard one for me, but I think ultimately I will still keep Smart. Smart can defend 3 positions because of his size. I think he is an underrated shooter in the league. He's not the greatest but he's not horrible either and for a rookie to be shooting like he does, it's pretty impressive.

2nd, I feel the two guards have different goals set for them by the two teams. Smart came into our team with Rondo leading the show, Jeff Green leading the scoring, and Sully being 2nd in scoring. Hell, Kelly was ahead of him in scoring. Guards, you have Bradley (in scoring and in rotation). Thorton was still on the team coming off the bench. Our goals for him earlier in the year was not as high as Orlando's goals for Payton. Payton had to do more on a team that needed it compare to Smart.

I think their rookie season is too early to tell, but as of now, I guess you can argue Payton as is, might be a better player but probably not by much.

[mrceltic]

I tip my hat to celtics2030 for making me go out of my way and make an account.

been watching this thread and finally reached my breaking point(and i'm the patient one, mind you).

on topic: Smart all the way.

payton looks like a future rondo, while smart is hopefully cooking out to be a future Payton(The glove).

Finally got that off my chest.

[celtics2030]

So you would trade for a young rondo who cannot shoot 3s, cannot shoot free throws and is really a defensive liability outside of guarding certain sized point guards?

Peyton's shot is TERRIBLE, his rotation is so bad I am shocked he ever hits open shots at all.

Smart is a way better player and prospect.

Grass is greener I guess.

He is not Rondo,

Smart is shooting 65% from the line, what is her?

Yes Peyton has been terrible from the line, and he cant shoot 3's, thats one thing he needs to get better at, or he will not be as good as he can be....agreed on that.

Does not mean he is Rondo.

And I believe Smart is not Smart yet either, he will also improve,

the skillsets I think Marcus needs to improve are the ones many scouts have said are his biggest problems, so it will be interesting to see.

[celtics2030]

Hes ahead of Marcus Smart for sure , for the position they are playing....i mean you cant really argue that. Its virtually impossible to say Marcus is a better point guard. All he does is taking three pointers, which he hasnt been that great at.

Could you please back up your assertions with empirical evidence?

If we do an apples to apples comparison based on their rookie season so far, how would their numbers look?  I'll show you.

Sources -- NBA Reference.com:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smartma01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paytoel01.html

Keep in mind that they have played in/started a different number of games, so we will normalize their stats to a per game basis

Rookie seasons:
Marcus Smart
54 games played 7.94 ppg 2p% 39.4 3p% 34.1 eFG% 46.3 FT% 65.7 Steals 1.33 Assists 3.4 TO 1.4 Rebounds 3.4

Elfrid Payton
71 games played 8.7 ppg 2p% 43.9 3p% 25.0 eFG% 43.5 FT% 53.2 Steals 1.6 Assists 6.2 TO 2.5 Rebounds 4.1

Just looking at the pure statistics from an impartial point of view, Payton has played in more games, but his ppg average is less than 1 point more.  Payton shoots 4% better from 2 point range, but his 3 point percentage is significantly worse at 9% worse.  Payton has a worse shooting stroke at the FT line by about 12%.  He gets slightly more steals at .3 better, and slightly more rebounds at .7 better.  He enjoys a higher assist rate, but both take care of the ball well, having about a 2 to 1 assist to TO rate.

To me, from a statistical point of view, Marcus Smart has superior accuracy from range and from the free throw line.  And these numbers are improving as the season comes along.  This suggest to me that Smart will be the better long range shooter.  I'll take a good 3 ball over a long 2 any time.  Statistics show that eFG-wise and TS% wise, that a good 3-ball is more valuable than a good 2-ball.

Those are the per-game rates.  Now what if we normalize them to per 36?
The percentages don't change, but here's how the productivity would look.

Per 36 Smart 10.8 ppg 4.6 apg 1.8 spg 4.6 rpg .3 bpg 1.9 to
Per 36 Payton 10.7 ppg 7.6 apg 1.9 spg 5.1 rpg .2 bpg 3.0 to

The points scored, steals, rebounds, and blocks become virtually identical per 36.  Peyton enjoys the assist advantage but also turns the ball over significantly more.

These are different players for sure, but I can't say I could give a definitive edge to either player from a statistical standpoint.  Payton enjoys the assist advantage but he also turns the ball over more.  Smart enjoys a shooting advantage from long range and a higher eFG and FT percentage which are both positive indicators of a better overall shooter.

To me it's pretty much a draw when you add up all their pros and cons.  When the statistics match up so evenly, it's a matter of personal preference.  I love the intangibles that Marcus Smart brings on top of his basketball production.  Right now he is playing more off the ball and is not the main handler as much, but there is room to grow there.  What I love though is the bulldog mentality he brings to the PG position and the entire team defensively.

I can respect that you love Elfrid Payton and even prefer him over Marcus Smart for the things that you like about him.  But I cannot agree with your opinion that Payton is head and shoulders above Smart at this point in time.  From an empirical point of view they are neck and neck, and from the standpoint that higher rates of 3p%, FT%, and eFG% are better indicators of shooting prowess than 2p% alone, I would disagree with your assessment that Payton is the better shooter.  To me, Smart right now IS the better shooter, and looks more likely to become the better shooter down the road.

I'm very happy with the Marcus Smart pick and look forward to his future development as a Boston Celtic.

Good analysis, TP.

EP is clearly more advanced in several areas than Smart, i.e. ball handling, penetrating and dishing, finishing with the floater, etc.  But the same can be said about Smart's shooting, BBIQ, and defense, too.

Personally, trying to compare the two this early in as different situations as they're in is silly. They're two different players totally. EP really reminds me of Rondo the more I watch him, but he can be better if he works on his shot, which is horrid right now. It's hard to say who Smart is like right now, because his game is still evolving as we go along. He's driving and penetrating so much more now than at the beginning of the year, so it'll probably take another year or so to really see where his career and style of play will head.

Dude, the same cannot be said for shooting, Smart is not a great shooter by any means.....

what is his finishing rate at the basket, what is he shooting this month from deep.......give me a break with this...

All you have to do is watch these guys play

Marcus is not there, at least not yet, Peyton is already playing at starting point guard level........hes a "rising" star to many

Enough with this statistical crap. Dont fall into this statistical bull.

How many Orlando Magic games have you seen this year?

Mike

at the very least 25

[celtics2030]

I tip my hat to celtics2030 for making me go out of my way and make an account.

been watching this thread and finally reached my breaking point(and i'm the patient one, mind you).

on topic: Smart all the way.

payton looks like a future rondo, while smart is hopefully cooking out to be a future Payton(The glove).

Finally got that off my chest.

Yea lol , Marcus looks like a future Gary Payton....ok...

[loco_91]

Hes ahead of Marcus Smart for sure , for the position they are playing....i mean you cant really argue that. Its virtually impossible to say Marcus is a better point guard. All he does is taking three pointers, which he hasnt been that great at.

Could you please back up your assertions with empirical evidence?

If we do an apples to apples comparison based on their rookie season so far, how would their numbers look?  I'll show you.

Sources -- NBA Reference.com:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smartma01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paytoel01.html

Keep in mind that they have played in/started a different number of games, so we will normalize their stats to a per game basis

Rookie seasons:
Marcus Smart
54 games played 7.94 ppg 2p% 39.4 3p% 34.1 eFG% 46.3 FT% 65.7 Steals 1.33 Assists 3.4 TO 1.4 Rebounds 3.4

Elfrid Payton
71 games played 8.7 ppg 2p% 43.9 3p% 25.0 eFG% 43.5 FT% 53.2 Steals 1.6 Assists 6.2 TO 2.5 Rebounds 4.1

Just looking at the pure statistics from an impartial point of view, Payton has played in more games, but his ppg average is less than 1 point more.  Payton shoots 4% better from 2 point range, but his 3 point percentage is significantly worse at 9% worse.  Payton has a worse shooting stroke at the FT line by about 12%.  He gets slightly more steals at .3 better, and slightly more rebounds at .7 better.  He enjoys a higher assist rate, but both take care of the ball well, having about a 2 to 1 assist to TO rate.

To me, from a statistical point of view, Marcus Smart has superior accuracy from range and from the free throw line.  And these numbers are improving as the season comes along.  This suggest to me that Smart will be the better long range shooter.  I'll take a good 3 ball over a long 2 any time.  Statistics show that eFG-wise and TS% wise, that a good 3-ball is more valuable than a good 2-ball.

Those are the per-game rates.  Now what if we normalize them to per 36?
The percentages don't change, but here's how the productivity would look.

Per 36 Smart 10.8 ppg 4.6 apg 1.8 spg 4.6 rpg .3 bpg 1.9 to
Per 36 Payton 10.7 ppg 7.6 apg 1.9 spg 5.1 rpg .2 bpg 3.0 to

The points scored, steals, rebounds, and blocks become virtually identical per 36.  Peyton enjoys the assist advantage but also turns the ball over significantly more.

These are different players for sure, but I can't say I could give a definitive edge to either player from a statistical standpoint.  Payton enjoys the assist advantage but he also turns the ball over more.  Smart enjoys a shooting advantage from long range and a higher eFG and FT percentage which are both positive indicators of a better overall shooter.

To me it's pretty much a draw when you add up all their pros and cons.  When the statistics match up so evenly, it's a matter of personal preference.  I love the intangibles that Marcus Smart brings on top of his basketball production.  Right now he is playing more off the ball and is not the main handler as much, but there is room to grow there.  What I love though is the bulldog mentality he brings to the PG position and the entire team defensively.

I can respect that you love Elfrid Payton and even prefer him over Marcus Smart for the things that you like about him.  But I cannot agree with your opinion that Payton is head and shoulders above Smart at this point in time.  From an empirical point of view they are neck and neck, and from the standpoint that higher rates of 3p%, FT%, and eFG% are better indicators of shooting prowess than 2p% alone, I would disagree with your assessment that Payton is the better shooter.  To me, Smart right now IS the better shooter, and looks more likely to become the better shooter down the road.

I'm very happy with the Marcus Smart pick and look forward to his future development as a Boston Celtic.

Celtic Bloggers

Look at this post this guy above just made

This is a great example of a "Statistic Warrior"

Does not figure in the player himself, just looks at statistics.

A true pathetic way of proving who is a better player.

Uncalled for. I will never understand how easily differences of opinion over inconsequential issues turn into personal animosity.

[celtics2030]

So you would trade for a young rondo who cannot shoot 3s, cannot shoot free throws and is really a defensive liability outside of guarding certain sized point guards?

Peyton's shot is TERRIBLE, his rotation is so bad I am shocked he ever hits open shots at all.

Smart is a way better player and prospect.

Grass is greener I guess.

Yea grass is greener for you guys at least.

If Payton is a young Rondo

What's Smart? A young Marcus Banks lol?

im mean seriously, you can argue that im calling it to early one what will happen

but do not argue the skillsets they possess and show.

Payton just posted two triple doubles in a row, who was the last to do that for a rookie? it was in 1997

Peyton has come into his own the last 10-15 games.


I love Smart, dont get me wrong, but I liked Peyton in college, so i just like him as a player i followed in college.

[celtics2030]

Hes ahead of Marcus Smart for sure , for the position they are playing....i mean you cant really argue that. Its virtually impossible to say Marcus is a better point guard. All he does is taking three pointers, which he hasnt been that great at.

Could you please back up your assertions with empirical evidence?

If we do an apples to apples comparison based on their rookie season so far, how would their numbers look?  I'll show you.

Sources -- NBA Reference.com:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smartma01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paytoel01.html

Keep in mind that they have played in/started a different number of games, so we will normalize their stats to a per game basis

Rookie seasons:
Marcus Smart
54 games played 7.94 ppg 2p% 39.4 3p% 34.1 eFG% 46.3 FT% 65.7 Steals 1.33 Assists 3.4 TO 1.4 Rebounds 3.4

Elfrid Payton
71 games played 8.7 ppg 2p% 43.9 3p% 25.0 eFG% 43.5 FT% 53.2 Steals 1.6 Assists 6.2 TO 2.5 Rebounds 4.1

Just looking at the pure statistics from an impartial point of view, Payton has played in more games, but his ppg average is less than 1 point more.  Payton shoots 4% better from 2 point range, but his 3 point percentage is significantly worse at 9% worse.  Payton has a worse shooting stroke at the FT line by about 12%.  He gets slightly more steals at .3 better, and slightly more rebounds at .7 better.  He enjoys a higher assist rate, but both take care of the ball well, having about a 2 to 1 assist to TO rate.

To me, from a statistical point of view, Marcus Smart has superior accuracy from range and from the free throw line.  And these numbers are improving as the season comes along.  This suggest to me that Smart will be the better long range shooter.  I'll take a good 3 ball over a long 2 any time.  Statistics show that eFG-wise and TS% wise, that a good 3-ball is more valuable than a good 2-ball.

Those are the per-game rates.  Now what if we normalize them to per 36?
The percentages don't change, but here's how the productivity would look.

Per 36 Smart 10.8 ppg 4.6 apg 1.8 spg 4.6 rpg .3 bpg 1.9 to
Per 36 Payton 10.7 ppg 7.6 apg 1.9 spg 5.1 rpg .2 bpg 3.0 to

The points scored, steals, rebounds, and blocks become virtually identical per 36.  Peyton enjoys the assist advantage but also turns the ball over significantly more.

These are different players for sure, but I can't say I could give a definitive edge to either player from a statistical standpoint.  Payton enjoys the assist advantage but he also turns the ball over more.  Smart enjoys a shooting advantage from long range and a higher eFG and FT percentage which are both positive indicators of a better overall shooter.

To me it's pretty much a draw when you add up all their pros and cons.  When the statistics match up so evenly, it's a matter of personal preference.  I love the intangibles that Marcus Smart brings on top of his basketball production.  Right now he is playing more off the ball and is not the main handler as much, but there is room to grow there.  What I love though is the bulldog mentality he brings to the PG position and the entire team defensively.

I can respect that you love Elfrid Payton and even prefer him over Marcus Smart for the things that you like about him.  But I cannot agree with your opinion that Payton is head and shoulders above Smart at this point in time.  From an empirical point of view they are neck and neck, and from the standpoint that higher rates of 3p%, FT%, and eFG% are better indicators of shooting prowess than 2p% alone, I would disagree with your assessment that Payton is the better shooter.  To me, Smart right now IS the better shooter, and looks more likely to become the better shooter down the road.

I'm very happy with the Marcus Smart pick and look forward to his future development as a Boston Celtic.

Celtic Bloggers

Look at this post this guy above just made

This is a great example of a "Statistic Warrior"

Does not figure in the player himself, just looks at statistics.

A true pathetic way of proving who is a better player.

Uncalled for. I will never understand how easily differences of opinion over inconsequential issues turn into personal animosity.

it is not opinion, I will not hate on anyone's opinion...I will hate the fact that the usage of stats tells the whole story.....

We should already know that is not true at all.

You can go to a gym today, and watch a player score 55 points, and one players score 8 points, both 6'6 , both same age, and you could still find the player who scored 8 points to be better...

its an in depth analysis...

Only die hard homer fans will do anything possible to convince themselves and others that there player is better , etc.

It's something I have hated for years. Nobody can rationalize one bit, its all bias.

Find something, anything reachable to put your argument in the forefront.

Opinions are welcome, i dont hate them because I have them too, and I can be right or wrong as can the other person.

But when someone is obviously putting on those homer glasses. Its hard to even have a discussion.