Post Game: Crowder says Stevens needs to hold players more accountable

[TheTruthFot18]

just for historical reference for this conversation:

doc river's record as coach of the celtics prior to the championship -
2004-05 = 45 wins and 37 losses
2005-06 = 33 and 49
2006-07 = 24 and 58

yet, in 2007-08 doc guided the celtics to a 66 and 16 record.

in one season doc goes from coaching a team to 24 wins to one with 66 wins. more than coaching is involved here and Red himself could not have coached that 2006-07 team to respectability.

some members of cb were impatient with rivers, saying things very similar to what i am reading here. doc was coach of the year once before coming to the celtics. he had coached more than 4 full seasons in Orlando before coming to the celtics. and he still coached the celtics to a 24 win season. the celtics got beat more than a rented mule.

cb posters would gleefully dump on doc for being a total waste of space as a coach, losing the team's respect, unable to set rotations, unable to finish games, and more. it got old then and it could very easily get old here.

i don't see why this board is so impatient with CBS when it is ainge who put this team together.

let's see what happens in february to the roster, then let's see what CBS does with that team. they will still lose, no coach can solve that problem. but how CBS will respond to the changes is of interest to me.

And those teams had perennial all star and leader Paul Pierce, an up and coming Big Al and a mix of young talent that would eventually be nba starters (Rondo, DWest, TA, Perk).

If we're in trouble now I can't imagine how anyone slept at night those 2-3 years before we won it all. 

[guava_wrench]

A player should not be saying that about a coach.

Agreed.  Know your place, and keep it in the locker room.

I have no problem with this. I think it's great that someone is stepping up. And his play backs up his words.

His play -- fewer than 7 points per game on 44% shooting, and a 1-7 record -- allows him to undermine his coach to the media?

When your coach undermines himself with bad, almost pathetic, coaching, I don't think players are required to lie to anyone about what is going on.  If Crowder goes from Rick Carisle to Stevens and notices something wrong, why not mention the Emperor's New Clothes?

Mike

Correction: If Crowder goes from Dirk Nowitski, Tyson Chandler, Chandler Parsons, and Monta Ellis to Jeff Green, Jared Sullinger, Avery Bradley, and Evan Turner and notices something wrong, why not mention the Emperor's New Clothes?

[LarBrd33]

Well this it too bad. The team doesn't have the talent to compete.  Ainge hired Stevens with the expectation that this team will be terrible for 3-5 years... Hence the 6 year deal.  Stevens job is to develop players for the future. He isn't here to win right now.  Problem is, it's really hard for a coach to keep the Locker room healthy when they are losing consistently.

What needs to happen is for us to eliminate the veterans from the roster. These guys will not respect brad.  Ainge is trying to dump them as quickly as possible but it can't happen soon enough.  The kids like young, Oly and smart should be fine here.  They are still trying to make a name for themselves so they can get paid. Winning doesn't really matter to them. 

I understand that because these comments are coming from an unproven player like crowder it kind of goes against what I'm saying, but it seems to me that the sooner we get rid of guys like bass, green, Wallace and jameer, the sooner the kids can lose in peace and everyone will just be happy to get NBA minutes.

the team was built poorly before Rondo left and it's only gotten worse. I think it's kind of by design by Ainge. just a collection of players, most of which whose talents would be better suited getting some mins. on a playoff team...and then a bunch of young guys running around like the chicken with no head.

and while I don't think Stevens is tanking I actually believe he's trying to win. but I think Stevens is in on danny's plan to tank.

if they don't get what it is they're holding out for in return for green/bass and end up settling for a rondo deal. we can look at this as another mistake.

I certainly hope you're right about Stevens being more in on Danny's plan than trying to win above all else. Otherwise--yikes!

Danny's plan is pretty transparent.  We've seen it before.  Collect assets, buy low and sell high, try to target stars.   The second we traded KG and Pierce, everything else that has happened was predictable....  Doc leaving, collecting draft picks, finding Ricky Davis-esque reclamation projects (Evan Turner), showcasing vets and developing youth, dumping vets for expiring contracts, putting the team in position to fail so we can get high picks, etc.    We obviously were going to try hard to land a star... which we tried this summer with Kevin Love, but didn't have enough assets to get it done yet.  Remember it took Danny about 4 years to collect enough assets to land the 32 year old KG.  We'll get there eventually.

The plan is a loose set of guidelines:  Collect youth, picks, and expiring contracts.  PUt team in position to land superstar prospects in the draft.   

Everyone should have known what was going on.   Doc Rivers clearly knew what was going on... that's why he didn't want to stick around.  I never blamed Doc for that.  It was blatantly clear to anyone paying attention that we were on the verge of a lengthy rebuild and all the garbage that goes along with it.    There's no way Ainge hired the college kid as his coach without communicating to him what a torturous 3-5 years it was going to be.  Doc went through it in the early years of his Celtic run... and now Brad is going through it.  There's a reason why Ainge gave Brad a guaranteed 6 year deal.  It was an admission, "Look, we aren't judging you on wins and losses here... there's a lot of motives you'll need to balance, but the potential reward could be high if we do our job.  Doc went through this.  People misinterpreted what he was doing.  They complained about his rotations.  They wanted him fired.  Doc and I had an understanding.  Eventually, Doc coached a champion.  People will remember him as a great coach, not a company man who balanced our festering assets.  Eventually, they will see you as a great coach too... just gotta get through the nasty bit."

There is literally no way Brad isn't aware of what's going on here.  He was hired because of his demeanor.  He's a nice intelligent guy.  He doesn't lash out at the players or anything.  He's patient.  We need a patient coach for this process.  You can't hire someone like Stan Van Gundy... it would be a disaster.  So we plucked a young College coach who can be here for the long haul.  You really can't judge anything Brad is doing.  It's all for the greater good.   

As soon as the vets are shipped out, we'll all be able to lose in peace.

[KeepRondo]

A player should not be saying that about a coach.

Which begs the question, are you really the coach if you don't appear to do any actual coaching.

That's just the tip of this iceberg the Celtic Titanic is sailing into .

Ainge will just have to let Stevens go. I don't think the team is responding to whatever he's selling anymore.

just for historical reference for this conversation:

doc river's record as coach of the celtics prior to the championship -
2004-05 = 45 wins and 37 losses
2005-06 = 33 and 49
2006-07 = 24 and 58

yet, in 2007-08 doc guided the celtics to a 66 and 16 record.

in one season doc goes from coaching a team to 24 wins to one with 66 wins. more than coaching is involved here and Red himself could not have coached that 2006-07 team to respectability.

some members of cb were impatient with rivers, saying things very similar to what i am reading here. doc was coach of the year once before coming to the celtics. he had coached more than 4 full seasons in Orlando before coming to the celtics. and he still coached the celtics to a 24 win season. the celtics got beat more than a rented mule.

cb posters would gleefully dump on doc for being a total waste of space as a coach, losing the team's respect, unable to set rotations, unable to finish games, and more. it got old then and it could very easily get old here.

i don't see why this board is so impatient with CBS when it is ainge who put this team together.

let's see what happens in february to the roster, then let's see what CBS does with that team. they will still lose, no coach can solve that problem. but how CBS will respond to the changes is of interest to me.

Lets look at that team.

He had the best shooter in the game. Possibly top 5 all time natural shooters.

A player who acted like he was caged up before games. One of the top 2-3 all time power forwards all time.

One of the best 4th quarter playmakers/scorers in the league.

And a point guard that was unselfish and had amazing court vision.

Now I'll give Doc credit for being a great floor general, but he had a stacked team.

[sed522002]

A player should not be saying that about a coach.

Agreed.  Know your place, and keep it in the locker room.

I have no problem with this. I think it's great that someone is stepping up. And his play backs up his words.

His play -- fewer than 7 points per game on 44% shooting, and a 1-7 record -- allows him to undermine his coach to the media?

If you read the entire quote he said it's up to the players to be accountable. The excerpt they used was just a better quote for a story but overall the comment wasn't too harsh.

It seems similar to Wallace's comments last year in that, if you listened to the whole interview on youtube it didn't seem bad but then when sports writers isolate part of the quote it becomes a story.

Just another case of reporters creating stories instead of just reporting them.

Well from the rest of the quote the reporters aren't creating a story, Crowder wasn't harsh,but he was being very direct about Coach Stevens

One reporter asked Crowder what Stevens can do differently with his preparation.

"I don't know what he can do to prepare," the small forward responded. "But when something like that happens, I guess hold guys accountable early. Just don't let it keep happening. We just kept digging ourselves in a hole. I just feel like he's got to hold guys a little more accountable."

Does that mean screaming, benching players, something else?

"All of the above. Whatever it takes," Crowder said. "You've got to find out what it takes for your unit, for your team. I've been around coaches who cut guys' minutes, who yell at them. Sometimes, some coaches do all of the above, like I said. But whatever it is you've got to hold guys accountable. Show them in film session of what's going on and how we can get better a little bit more, and go from there.

"It's being done, but I think it has to step up a notch because we've lost however many out of the last however many, and he keeps saying the same thing is happening. I think we have to switch it up a little bit and find out what works for the team."

[kozlodoev]

cb posters would gleefully dump on doc for being a total waste of space as a coach, losing the team's respect, unable to set rotations, unable to finish games, and more. it got old then and it could very easily get old here.

No, this is revisionist history.

The main complaints about Doc were that he wasn't playing their favorite young player enough, meaning he made them earn their minutes from the veterans, and kept them on a short leash when they made bad plays on offense or defense. I don't think "losing the team's respect" or having players play hard for him was ever a problem (yes, even during the 24-win year).

The main complaint about Stevens is that he has no idea what he's doing: there isn't a distinct pattern where established players get the bulk of the minutes and  youngsters can play themselves into the rotation. There isn't even a pattern where young players play and veterans sit.

Good play isn't being rewarded, and poor play isn't being addressed -- hence there is no visible player development. He doesn't seem to be able to extract any meaningful effort from anyone -- including veterans playing for their next contract and youngsters  playing for their NBA careers.

This team is quickly developing into a cesspool of bad habits and bad attitudes, and the coach seems to be in over his head trying to stop this (not even sure he's trying that, it's kind of hard to tell).  Say all you want about "transitional year" and everything, but some of those players will stay, and this is terribly detrimental to anything we expect to get out of them down the road.

[guava_wrench]

The rotation complaints are identical to the complaints about Doc's rotations when the team was actually good. People complained about too many guys getting minutes. People loved to complain if he played 11 guys (which he would do quite a bit because he would play someone like Pruitt in the first half but a more vet sub in the second half, or Baby in the first half and then Powe in the second half.)

People would regularly complain about the rotation based on last night's game. There will always be those people.

Personally, I think Stevens needs to stabilize roles, but the trade means a lot of trial and error when you have a team full of mediocrity and the 3 guys that came in are about as good as all the guys already here.

[Roy H.]

Crowder is arguably the team's mvp since the trade, 7pts in 16 mins isnt bad, plus he does all the other things. 

Okay...  Make the argument.

[Celtics4ever]

We have too many confidence guys who need everything to go rosy for things to go well.   One day Zeller is in a slump, the next it is Sully, next Oynyk.   I get these guys are not that good but do they really have the mindset to be pros if they are that fragile.

Sully has the gall to discuss toughness and Hero ball when he is lacking in these regards and played hero ball.

There is too much talk on this team.   I think Stevens was a great coach prior to coming here but with this much talk I have to wonder if the players respect him anymore.   I do not think anyone could win with this team though.   It is flawed beyond belief.  Guys who think otherwise have no seen enough moons.

[the_Bird]

Crowder is arguably the team's mvp since the trade, 7pts in 16 mins isnt bad, plus he does all the other things. 

Okay...  Make the argument.

I'll give it a shot.

He plays hard, but simply isn't good enough to help you win games.

If your objective it to tank the season, isn't that what you want to do?  Lose every game, but make it look like you're at least trying to win? 

[Roy H.]

Crowder is arguably the team's mvp since the trade, 7pts in 16 mins isnt bad, plus he does all the other things. 

Okay...  Make the argument.

I'll give it a shot.

He plays hard, but simply isn't good enough to help you win games.

If your objective it to tank the season, isn't that what you want to do?  Lose every game, but make it look like you're at least trying to win?

I suppose when you define MVP of the Celtics as King Turd on Crap Mountain, it makes a little more sense.

[Hawkeye199]

I think crowder is talking mainly about green and maybe sully when he sulks

[hwangjini_1]

cb posters would gleefully dump on doc for being a total waste of space as a coach, losing the team's respect, unable to set rotations, unable to finish games, and more. it got old then and it could very easily get old here.

No, this is revisionist history.

The main complaints about Doc were that he wasn't playing their favorite young player enough, meaning he made them earn their minutes from the veterans, and kept them on a short leash when they made bad plays on offense or defense. I don't think "losing the team's respect" or having players play hard for him was ever a problem (yes, even during the 24-win year).

The main complaint about Stevens is that he has no idea what he's doing: there isn't a distinct pattern where established players get the bulk of the minutes and  youngsters can play themselves into the rotation. There isn't even a pattern where young players play and veterans sit.

Good play isn't being rewarded, and poor play isn't being addressed -- hence there is no visible player development. He doesn't seem to be able to extract any meaningful effort from anyone -- including veterans playing for their next contract and youngsters  playing for their NBA careers.

This team is quickly developing into a cesspool of bad habits and bad attitudes, and the coach seems to be in over his head trying to stop this (not even sure he's trying that, it's kind of hard to tell).  Say all you want about "transitional year" and everything, but some of those players will stay, and this is terribly detrimental to anything we expect to get out of them down the road.

i tried to go through archives for the threads on doc, but found nothing prior to april 2008.

no, you are not entirely correct. yes, those comments were made by some posters. but yes, the other comments by some posters as well. the attacks on doc were intense and comprehensive, not simply measured and thoughtful.

hey, this is a blog.

[kozlodoev]

Crowder is arguably the team's mvp since the trade, 7pts in 16 mins isnt bad, plus he does all the other things. 

Okay...  Make the argument.

I'll give it a shot.

He plays hard, but simply isn't good enough to help you win games.

If your objective it to tank the season, isn't that what you want to do?  Lose every game, but make it look like you're at least trying to win?

I suppose when you define MVP of the Celtics as King Turd on Crap Mountain, it makes a little more sense.

I guess when you're the Crap Mountain, King Turd is the only type of king you can have.

[Roy H.]

cb posters would gleefully dump on doc for being a total waste of space as a coach, losing the team's respect, unable to set rotations, unable to finish games, and more. it got old then and it could very easily get old here.

No, this is revisionist history.

The main complaints about Doc were that he wasn't playing their favorite young player enough, meaning he made them earn their minutes from the veterans, and kept them on a short leash when they made bad plays on offense or defense. I don't think "losing the team's respect" or having players play hard for him was ever a problem (yes, even during the 24-win year).

The main complaint about Stevens is that he has no idea what he's doing: there isn't a distinct pattern where established players get the bulk of the minutes and  youngsters can play themselves into the rotation. There isn't even a pattern where young players play and veterans sit.

Good play isn't being rewarded, and poor play isn't being addressed -- hence there is no visible player development. He doesn't seem to be able to extract any meaningful effort from anyone -- including veterans playing for their next contract and youngsters  playing for their NBA careers.

This team is quickly developing into a cesspool of bad habits and bad attitudes, and the coach seems to be in over his head trying to stop this (not even sure he's trying that, it's kind of hard to tell).  Say all you want about "transitional year" and everything, but some of those players will stay, and this is terribly detrimental to anything we expect to get out of them down the road.

i tried to go through archives for the threads on doc, but found nothing prior to april 2008.

no, you are not entirely correct. yes, those comments were made by some posters. but yes, the other comments by some posters as well. the attacks on doc were intense and comprehensive, not simply measured and thoughtful.

hey, this is a blog.

I was very critical of Doc, and I remember it being an "all of the above" sort of situation.  Yes, there were plenty of debates about playing the young guys more.  However, I know myself and others were critical of his rotations, his teaching of fundamentals, his propensity to play guys injured, calling guys out in the media, etc.

Doc was better as a coach of a veteran team, though.

As for Stevens, there are some growing pains.  I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, though, because the talent on the team is not only mismatched, but in flux.