Post Game: Crowder says Stevens needs to hold players more accountable

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Which is why I believe that the rotations are more Danny than Brad. Showcasing talent to have their trade values increase. He never went 11 deep in Butler playing 10 minutes or more. But in Boston he's playing 12 guys. That's two different rotation philosophies. Either he still hasnt figured out his rotation or someone from above is telling him to play the other guys.

You really think that playing someone 5 minutes "showcases" them for anything? Most of our veterans are what they are, and as such are a pretty well known commodity around the league.

This is from ESPN.com

Brandon Bass: 17 mpg
Avery Bradley: 30 mpg
Jae Crowder: 15 mpg
Jeff Green: 33 mpg
Jameer Nelson: 20 mpg
Kelly Olynyk: 25 mpg
Marcus Smart: 19 mpg
Jared Sullinger: 28 mpg
Marcus Thornton (pre injury): 15 mpg
Evan Turner: 24 mpg
Brandan Wright: 11 mpg
Tyler Zeller: 20 mpg

Only 3 players are averaging single digit minutes in our lineup (Pressey, Young, Wallace). Everybody else has ENOUGH time to showcase what they can do.

Where's this 5 minutes that you're talking about?

[Yoki_IsTheName]

A few thoughts I have on this...

- Brad is a players coach...to a fault.  He seems to be a bit of a people pleaser.  That might work in the living room of a high school senior, but not the world of millionaire nba players.  I get that he's cool and calm, but my goodness, the guy just seems to be so stoic it's frustrating.

- Danny has done Brad NO FAVORS.  I remember Danny saying last year that the roster lacked balance.  Well, Danny boy, you've done it again...  You've assembled a roster of 15 players in which ALL OF THEM need to play.  They are all basically role players, and they ALL could play 25-30 minutes per night.  Oh, and once Thornton comes back what will yet again happen to Brad's rotations??  It's a mess, and Danny needs to start shipping some pieces out.

- Which leads me to this point: Brad needs to show some stones and JUST PLAY a rotation of TEN GUYS!!  So 5 guys aren't happy??  Who cares...  Be a man and put your foot down.  If it means that Bass, Jameer, Thornton, Wallace and Avery sit - so be it.  Let's be honest: how many of these guys are coming back?  How many of them will even be here come late February?  Yet Brad seems like he wants to be the likeable guy and not offend anyone...  But it's not working.

I still have a bit of a problem with this.

Like I said a few times already on other threads, his coaching history with Butler and his rotations are DIFFERENT than what he's doing with Boston.

Over here, he's playing too many men, distributing minutes to someone who probably doesnt even deserve any. In Butler, he has been 9 deep, with the starters playing heavy minutes. Something doesnt add up to me.

Which is why I believe that the rotations are more Danny than Brad. Showcasing talent to have their trade values increase. He never went 11 deep in Butler playing 10 minutes or more. But in Boston he's playing 12 guys. That's two different rotation philosophies. Either he still hasnt figured out his rotation or someone from above is telling him to play the other guys.

The problem with that theory is...what exactly Ainge telling him?

"You must play 11 guys in the first half?"

"You must start Jameer Nelson?"

"Okay, don't start Jameer?"

"Okay, now you can play guys and almost come back and win the game?"

Is Ainge tweeting him during the game with tanking orders?

Is Stevens so two-faced he can lose on purpose and then fake his frustration?

And if the purpose is taking, why aren't we better at it?

I think there's a simpler answer.

Mike

Dude, I don't know.

All I'm saying is that when he was in Butler, and winning, he has a solid rotation in set, and that's with probably 3 different set of Butler teams.

In Boston, where he's technically tanking, he's playing more guys than he should be.

Unless you're telling me that all of a sudden he just became this guy that wants to play everyone to be nice, then someone from the higher ups is telling him to play these guys.

[33_Larry Legend_33]

Another layer to this conversation we're having here:

Who was the person making these comments?  It's not Jeff Green.  It's not Sully or Avery.  It's Jae Crowder.

Jae has a different perspective.  He comes from a winning culture.  He's played next to an all-time NBA great in Dirk Nowitzki.  And he's played under an NBA Champion coach in Rick Carlisle.

Jae has seen a different culture in Dallas.  The atmosphere was different in that he left a winning team and has come to a team in a rebuild.

Jae's comments were not directed at his teammates, per se.  They were directly at his COACH.  That kinda tells us something...  I think Brad needs to take what he's saying to heart.  Crowder wouldn't have said those things if they weren't worth saying.  I don't see it as a cheap shot at Brad.  I think it's pure honesty.

Look, this was a game we should have won.  Charlotte is not a good team, and without their key guys in Lance Stephenson and Big Al, we had a legit shot to put them away tonight.

But the worst part of this game??  That we were down HUGE in the first half.  There is a trend developing with this team: they come out FLAT.  They were putrid tonight.

I was at the Magic game in Orlando.  I look up at the scoreboard and we hadn't scored more than a couple buckets with only 4 minutes left in the opening quarter.  It was embarrassing.  These guys want to win.  And I agree with Mike above: there is no way Danny is texting Brad telling him what to do second by second.  This is all on Brad.  And I think Jae simply wanted to establish his voice with this team, and the best way to do that is to say something that maybe no one else was willing to say.  And he has that right because he left a successful organization, led by a winning coach.  I think Jae sees something that Brad should listen to...

[MBunge]

A few thoughts I have on this...

- Brad is a players coach...to a fault.  He seems to be a bit of a people pleaser.  That might work in the living room of a high school senior, but not the world of millionaire nba players.  I get that he's cool and calm, but my goodness, the guy just seems to be so stoic it's frustrating.

- Danny has done Brad NO FAVORS.  I remember Danny saying last year that the roster lacked balance.  Well, Danny boy, you've done it again...  You've assembled a roster of 15 players in which ALL OF THEM need to play.  They are all basically role players, and they ALL could play 25-30 minutes per night.  Oh, and once Thornton comes back what will yet again happen to Brad's rotations??  It's a mess, and Danny needs to start shipping some pieces out.

- Which leads me to this point: Brad needs to show some stones and JUST PLAY a rotation of TEN GUYS!!  So 5 guys aren't happy??  Who cares...  Be a man and put your foot down.  If it means that Bass, Jameer, Thornton, Wallace and Avery sit - so be it.  Let's be honest: how many of these guys are coming back?  How many of them will even be here come late February?  Yet Brad seems like he wants to be the likeable guy and not offend anyone...  But it's not working.

I still have a bit of a problem with this.

Like I said a few times already on other threads, his coaching history with Butler and his rotations are DIFFERENT than what he's doing with Boston.

Over here, he's playing too many men, distributing minutes to someone who probably doesnt even deserve any. In Butler, he has been 9 deep, with the starters playing heavy minutes. Something doesnt add up to me.

Which is why I believe that the rotations are more Danny than Brad. Showcasing talent to have their trade values increase. He never went 11 deep in Butler playing 10 minutes or more. But in Boston he's playing 12 guys. That's two different rotation philosophies. Either he still hasnt figured out his rotation or someone from above is telling him to play the other guys.

The problem with that theory is...what exactly Ainge telling him?

"You must play 11 guys in the first half?"

"You must start Jameer Nelson?"

"Okay, don't start Jameer?"

"Okay, now you can play guys and almost come back and win the game?"

Is Ainge tweeting him during the game with tanking orders?

Is Stevens so two-faced he can lose on purpose and then fake his frustration?

And if the purpose is taking, why aren't we better at it?

I think there's a simpler answer.

Mike

like this team stinks?

Like Stevens is too smart for his own good.  You can outhustle teams and out tough teams in the NBA but you can't outthink them.  There are too many games, too few practices and too much travel.  When you're playing three games in four nights or three games in a week in three different cities, you don't have time to formulate a different strategy for each opponent.

Mike

[Rakulp]

Stevens has done nothing but win in his college career. You can tell the losses are starting to get to him. Tonight's comments are coming from a frustrated guy and you have to wonder how long it will be before Indiana makes a run at him and he decides to take the offer and leave.

If he does, he'll be a quitter...he'll know he didn't have the skills to make it in the NBA...that the "best" he can do is at the college level.

Somehow, I don't think he left the success that he had, signed a six year contract, to bail less than halfway through it. 

I believe Danny prepared him that it could be a long rebuild, made sure that the coach had the constitution to stick it out through the entire process, and is prepared to let Brad have the entire six years and surround him with the best people for his system.

Brad Stevens doesn't strike me as the kind of man to quit...it sounds like he gave a very honest answer tonight and realizes he still has a lot to learn.  Perhaps that is how he should hold the players accountable?  Remind them that no matter what previous success they may have had, either at college or in their pro career to this point, that there is always room to learn and to be better. 

...and then lead by example and do the things he needs to do to be a better coach.

If that happens, we'll see Banner 18...but more importantly, we will have been there for the ride with that rookie coach who finally was able to put all the pieces together for success.

That's the ride I want to be on.

Rak

[tarheelsxxiii]

Do we have Crowder's Bird rights? Or am I dumb and don't know what I'm saying? I'll assume the latter. I want to keep him, though. Wish I saw Young go off tonight, too. Unfortunately Georgia does not appreciate Celtics basketball.

[Kuberski33]

Brad had set rotations at Butler because he had a mature, successful program.  This thing now is in the building stage and he and Ainge need to identify who's going be a part of things moving forward.  The problem is top to bottom the roster is full of players who belong in NBA rotations, and they all know it.  The developmental guys are really Young and Smart and they need to play.   

It makes for a bad situation, especially since he's apparently balancing 'showcasing' with evaluation - or it at least looks that way.

But this really has to end.

[LooseCannon]

What would be the reaction if these words were coming from Gerald Wallace?

[Tr1boy]

Stevens rotation is messed up.  He doesn't need to give the vets a free pass.

Right now this should be the lineup

Zeller
Sully
Crowder
Young
Smart

Wright/Bass
KO/Bass
Green
AB
Pressey

Bottom line is guys like Green and AB should be coming off the bench. Green might of scored 6 points or the only guy that scored early but he was soft on defense.   I think we might of missed the boat on trading Green for a 1st or even 2 2nds.

Even if he plays well soon,  teams will be like trying to get him on a deal bc of his up and down ways. His defense is so soft compared to a guy like Crowder

And tonight Stevens seriously messed up taking Wright out or not bringing him back after a breather.  Walker's eyes lit up once Wright went to the bench and Sully and Bass were on the floor at the same time.   It's things like this that helps you lose games.  Good on leaving Young in, bad on taking or not bring back Wright

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Brad had set rotations at Butler because he had a mature, successful program.  This thing now is in the building stage and he and Ainge need to identify who's going be a part of things moving forward.  The problem is top to bottom the roster is full of players who belong in NBA rotations, and they all know it.  The developmental guys are really Young and Smart and they need to play.   

It makes for a bad situation, especially since he's apparently balancing 'showcasing' with evaluation - or it at least looks that way.

But this really has to end.

I have to agree. I guess that's what I meant, you just said it much, much better. And I'll still add the showcasing.

I believe that after the trade deadline we'll see a much better, consistent and solid structure in the rotations. If we don't, then something is clearly wrong with Brad.

[Tr1boy]

THis team always has to come from behind these days. Why not instead put these energy guys like Crowder out there from the beginning of the game . Maybe we will have a lead instead

[MBunge]

A few thoughts I have on this...

- Brad is a players coach...to a fault.  He seems to be a bit of a people pleaser.  That might work in the living room of a high school senior, but not the world of millionaire nba players.  I get that he's cool and calm, but my goodness, the guy just seems to be so stoic it's frustrating.

- Danny has done Brad NO FAVORS.  I remember Danny saying last year that the roster lacked balance.  Well, Danny boy, you've done it again...  You've assembled a roster of 15 players in which ALL OF THEM need to play.  They are all basically role players, and they ALL could play 25-30 minutes per night.  Oh, and once Thornton comes back what will yet again happen to Brad's rotations??  It's a mess, and Danny needs to start shipping some pieces out.

- Which leads me to this point: Brad needs to show some stones and JUST PLAY a rotation of TEN GUYS!!  So 5 guys aren't happy??  Who cares...  Be a man and put your foot down.  If it means that Bass, Jameer, Thornton, Wallace and Avery sit - so be it.  Let's be honest: how many of these guys are coming back?  How many of them will even be here come late February?  Yet Brad seems like he wants to be the likeable guy and not offend anyone...  But it's not working.

I still have a bit of a problem with this.

Like I said a few times already on other threads, his coaching history with Butler and his rotations are DIFFERENT than what he's doing with Boston.

Over here, he's playing too many men, distributing minutes to someone who probably doesnt even deserve any. In Butler, he has been 9 deep, with the starters playing heavy minutes. Something doesnt add up to me.

Which is why I believe that the rotations are more Danny than Brad. Showcasing talent to have their trade values increase. He never went 11 deep in Butler playing 10 minutes or more. But in Boston he's playing 12 guys. That's two different rotation philosophies. Either he still hasnt figured out his rotation or someone from above is telling him to play the other guys.

The problem with that theory is...what exactly Ainge telling him?

"You must play 11 guys in the first half?"

"You must start Jameer Nelson?"

"Okay, don't start Jameer?"

"Okay, now you can play guys and almost come back and win the game?"

Is Ainge tweeting him during the game with tanking orders?

Is Stevens so two-faced he can lose on purpose and then fake his frustration?

And if the purpose is taking, why aren't we better at it?

I think there's a simpler answer.

Mike

Dude, I don't know.

All I'm saying is that when he was in Butler, and winning, he has a solid rotation in set, and that's with probably 3 different set of Butler teams.

In Boston, where he's technically tanking, he's playing more guys than he should be.

Unless you're telling me that all of a sudden he just became this guy that wants to play everyone to be nice, then someone from the higher ups is telling him to play these guys.

He also won from the beginning at Butler.  Losing can change people.

This is what I'm suggesting about Stevens.

1.  He's out of his depth.  This guy only had, I think, five years experience as a head coach in college.  He was used to being the smartest guy in the room at that level and I don't think he was prepared to be the dumbest guy in the room when he came to the NBA.

2.  He's panicking with all these losses.  I doubt Stevens expected to win a title his first two years in Boston but I'm sure he expected his approach and his coaching to be more successful than it has.  But what he's doing isn't working and I don't think Stevens know his to deal with that because he's never had to before.

Mike

[Boris Badenov]

Apropos of nothing, I think this is maybe one of the best threads I've read in recent CB history in terms of people honestly and openly talking about something without pitching stakes and name-calling. TPs all around.

[Kuberski33]

In Brad's defense, when you change up 3 guys and subtract your PG in mid December, that will mess up any team.  Compound that by the lack of prime talent on the roster (prime as opposed to 'rotation' talent), the sheer number of guys who are proven NBA caliber players, an inexperienced assistant coaching staff, a couple of guys playing for contracts who know they won't be here, other guys trying to impress other teams because they know they're not here long term - and a lot of guys who aren't particularly inclined to play defense even on their best days and the normal inconsistencies of the players they've drafted over the past couple of years....it's a total mess.

No one can win many games with this type of situation.

[colincb]

A few thoughts I have on this...

- Brad is a players coach...to a fault.  He seems to be a bit of a people pleaser.  That might work in the living room of a high school senior, but not the world of millionaire nba players.  I get that he's cool and calm, but my goodness, the guy just seems to be so stoic it's frustrating.

- Danny has done Brad NO FAVORS.  I remember Danny saying last year that the roster lacked balance.  Well, Danny boy, you've done it again...  You've assembled a roster of 15 players in which ALL OF THEM need to play.  They are all basically role players, and they ALL could play 25-30 minutes per night.  Oh, and once Thornton comes back what will yet again happen to Brad's rotations??  It's a mess, and Danny needs to start shipping some pieces out.

- Which leads me to this point: Brad needs to show some stones and JUST PLAY a rotation of TEN GUYS!!  So 5 guys aren't happy??  Who cares...  Be a man and put your foot down.  If it means that Bass, Jameer, Thornton, Wallace and Avery sit - so be it.  Let's be honest: how many of these guys are coming back?  How many of them will even be here come late February?  Yet Brad seems like he wants to be the likeable guy and not offend anyone...  But it's not working.

I still have a bit of a problem with this.

Like I said a few times already on other threads, his coaching history with Butler and his rotations are DIFFERENT than what he's doing with Boston.

Over here, he's playing too many men, distributing minutes to someone who probably doesnt even deserve any. In Butler, he has been 9 deep, with the starters playing heavy minutes. Something doesnt add up to me.

Which is why I believe that the rotations are more Danny than Brad. Showcasing talent to have their trade values increase. He never went 11 deep in Butler playing 10 minutes or more. But in Boston he's playing 12 guys. That's two different rotation philosophies. Either he still hasnt figured out his rotation or someone from above is telling him to play the other guys.

The problem with that theory is...what exactly Ainge telling him?

"You must play 11 guys in the first half?"

"You must start Jameer Nelson?"

"Okay, don't start Jameer?"

"Okay, now you can play guys and almost come back and win the game?"

Is Ainge tweeting him during the game with tanking orders?

Is Stevens so two-faced he can lose on purpose and then fake his frustration?

And if the purpose is taking, why aren't we better at it?

I think there's a simpler answer.

Mike

Simpler answer is that (A) we're developing players and (B) we suck. We're not a better team without Rondo contrary to claims.  Rather than winning some games and being competitive most of the time, we're now going to be competitive some games and suck most of the time. Welcome to rebuilding through the draft. We might be OK 4 years out, but with all the picks we have, we're going to have a lot of problems developing players no matter who is the coach or GM.