Will Sacramento go for Rondo without an extension guarantee?

[snively]

Sacramento doesn't have a good trade package for Rondo. I don't understand the McLemore fever for one - what makes him preferable to James Young as a project exactly? And Sacramento's picks (the ones that they are allowed to trade that is - the OP's trade isn't possible) aren't likely to be all that desirable with a Rondo/Gay/Cousins trio intact.

Would you take McLemore, Henson and Thomas Robinson for Rondo? If so, look at my trade proposition on the second page of this thread and tell me what you believe is unrealistic about it. Are there small changes that need to be made? Big ones?

That's a poor trade package.  Henson's no more valuable to me than a guy like Andrew Nicholson in Orlando - a mildly interesting, mid-first round talent big man who hasn't made his team better and doesn't look to be improving.

McLemore has yet to show anything more than solid roleplayer talent.  I don't rate him much higher than James Young.

Robinson is about as valuable as Evan Turner was last year.

These are minor pieces.  Nothing worth giving up a star like Rondo.

[Eddie20]

I have Ben Mclemore in one of my fantasy leagues.  Amazing to me that people can call a 21 year old kid a "bust" after a single season.  He proved he could shoot in College.   I still expect him to have a solid career.

So far in 10 games he's averaging 10 points with shooting percentages of 45%/41%/87%

10ppg isn't all that impressive in 31 mpg for a guard that was drafted in the lotto for his scoring ability.

He was drafted for his shooting ability -- big difference.

He wasn't drafted in the mid-lotto to average the same amount of points as Rondo.  They wanted him to be a Klay Thompson/Bradley Beal/Terrence Ross type prospect.

He might still get there but right now he's playing the Keith Bogans role of 5th option wing/spot shooter.

McLemore is just beginning his 2nd year though. Ross, in his 3rd year, has never averaged more than 10 ppg. Maybe McLemore becomes on par with Beal and Thompson. maybe he doesn't. The potential is there though.

[TheFlex]

I have Ben Mclemore in one of my fantasy leagues.  Amazing to me that people can call a 21 year old kid a "bust" after a single season.  He proved he could shoot in College.   I still expect him to have a solid career.

So far in 10 games he's averaging 10 points with shooting percentages of 45%/41%/87%

10ppg isn't all that impressive in 31 mpg for a guard that was drafted in the lotto for his scoring ability.

He was drafted for his shooting ability -- big difference.

He wasn't drafted in the mid-lotto to average the same amount of points as Rondo.  They wanted him to be a Klay Thompson/Bradley Beal/Terrence Ross type prospect.

He might still get there but right now he's playing the Keith Bogans role of 5th option wing/spot shooter.

Klay Thompson was drafted a year older than McLemore was when he was drafted, and it's also worth noting that McLemore is playing on a team that already has two alpha dog scorers. Thompson walked on to a team that was asking him to score right away. As LarBrd suggests, if McLemore was asked to shoot 15 shots a game, it's likely he'd be putting up similar numbers.

In Terrence Ross' second season he averaged 11 ppg on 42/39.5/84% shooting.

Bradley Beal is the only player you have a real argument with, and still, the shot attempt excuse applies.

If Keith Bogans was ever a 21 year old scoring 10 points a game on 45% shooting from the field and 41% shooting from behind the arc on a winning team, then yes, McLemore is playing that role.

[flybono]

We are not getting a prime young player like drummond or klay thompson for rondo. So if a trade is going to happen ,mclemore, stauskus and maybe a pick is a dcent return for a half year rental

  Not so sure Drummond's really looking like the star everyone thinks he is, but that's for another thread.

So you'd rather have Rondo than Drummond going forward?

I'd rather have the ball in Rondo's hands than Drummond's down two with less than ten seconds left.   

I guess you somehow erased what happened last game.  I rather feed the ball to Drummond in the post with less than 10 seconds less

  I guess you somehow erased Drummond's entire career, assuming you've ever seen him play.

yes i have. And unlike Rondo he doesn't try to be a player he is not.

  Frankly you're better off saying you've never seen him play than say you have and talking about feeding him the ball in the post for your last second shot. At least you'd have an excuse for that comment. Secondly, how exactly does Rondo try and be a player he's not? I'll bet dollars to doughnuts the answer will be you criticizing him for doing something you've attacked him for not doing in other games.

BBALLTIM sometimes i'm not sure if your serious.

Did you not see what he did with 7 seconds left the last game? Or what he didn't do. HE didn't even take a shot before time ended.   If he knew even 50 percent in that instance the thing he had to do, he would of shot the ball regardless how ugly of a shot it was before the clock ended . If you don't have experience or are not that kind of player, than pass the ball quickly.

I'm starting to think Rondo has mediocre IQ.  He might be mistaken to be smart but is really just unorthodox.

  Sure, I saw that one play. But then there probably aren't many star players that I haven't seen do something stupid with the ball in a situation like that. Likewise, I've seen Rondo make big plays late in games to get/preserve wins. You can't base your opinion of an entire career on one play.

  Also, even if you can't figure it out for yourself, you've probably heard Doc, Danny, Brad, KG, PP and numerous teammates talk about how smart Rondo is and how high his BBIQ is. Clearly you don't like Rondo but you're just making yourself look ridiculous when you say things like that.

Tim, it wasn't just that one play it was Rondo's play the entire last minute that was pure crap.

* High pick and roll with Sullinger, Cavs go below the screen (obviously), and Rondo misses an open 15 footer from the FT line extended.

* Rondo attempts to take it to James, gets stripped, and has the ball bounce of his leg giving the Cavs the ball.

* Rondo attempts to cover James, but gets blown by easily and has to foul James to prevent an easy basket. This one was very interesting to me since it appeared that Rondo simply failed to move his feet and James didn't muscle Rondo to get inside.

* On the infamous last play, Rondo is covered by Joe Harris on the perimeter. Here, basically every NBA star's eyes would light up and take it right at the rookie. Instead Rondo uses another high pick from Sullinger, which causes Marion to switch. Sullinger rolls, taking Harris with him, and now Rondo is isolated again, but this time against Marion. Instead of attacking and using his speed to get to the rim for a basket or to draw the foul, he bobbles the ball and allows time to elapse.

To think you would rather have soon to be 29 year old Rondo over just turned 21 year old Drummond going forward is laughable. Drummond is one of the most unattainable players in the league for good reason. The guy averaged 13.5 PPG, 13.2 RPG, 1.6 BPG, and shot 62% from the field. Is he limited offensively and a liability at the FT line? Sure, but Rondo isn't? However, one player is a big (something we lack) and one player is a PG (a position we just drafted).

You probably haven't seen Drummond play that much, if at all, and bash him simply because many say they would trade Rondo for him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czs9XY6FRRw

Amen!

[TheFlex]

Sacramento doesn't have a good trade package for Rondo. I don't understand the McLemore fever for one - what makes him preferable to James Young as a project exactly? And Sacramento's picks (the ones that they are allowed to trade that is - the OP's trade isn't possible) aren't likely to be all that desirable with a Rondo/Gay/Cousins trio intact.

Would you take McLemore, Henson and Thomas Robinson for Rondo? If so, look at my trade proposition on the second page of this thread and tell me what you believe is unrealistic about it. Are there small changes that need to be made? Big ones?

That's a poor trade package.  Henson's no more valuable to me than a guy like Andrew Nicholson in Orlando - a mildly interesting, mid-first round talent big man who hasn't made his team better and doesn't look to be improving.

McLemore has yet to show anything more than solid roleplayer talent.  I don't rate him much higher than James Young.

Robinson is about as valuable as Evan Turner was last year.

These are minor pieces.  Nothing worth giving up a star like Rondo.

Except when Henson was considered a power forward, he was playing behind Ilyasova (who was considered a good veteran player at that point). Now that he's put on weight, he's playing behind Larry Sanders. Andrew Nicholson didn't play behind anyone halfway decent until this year.

http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2014/11/14/7221561/ben-mclemore-development-shooting-defense

Robinson is hardly the attraction among this package. He's a low risk-high reward guy on a reasonable contract.

[flybono]

I dont think Rondo is getting moved this season, my gut feeling is that DA lets it ride and hopes for fireworks this offseason.


That being said,

My 3 team deal

Cs get Henson, Stauskas
Cs trade Rondo

Kings get Rondo
Kings trade Collison, Stauskas, Williams, loto protected 1st

Bucks get Collison, D Williams, kings 1st
Bucks trade Henson

Cs, Not the greatest of trades for the Cs but they get two high value young players. More trade involving Bass and or green would likely have to follow.

Kings, get Rondo creating a core of Rondo, Cousins and Gay

Bucks, get a starting PG and allow Knight to play his more natural role as a SG. The first takes some of the sting out of trading Henson but they haven't played him a lot so I question how much the franchise values him. This is not a great trade for the bucks but one that might help them start winning more games and building their young core. 

Rondo's going nowhere this season.  no reason to trade him.

having said that, Henson and Stauskas for Rondo is horrible.  just horrible.  we're loaded at SG already and Henson would have a **** of a time getting minutes here as it is and that's with our current roster. 

Rondo should only be traded if we're getting a better player back.  period.  the likelihood someone better would be coming here in a trade is unlikely and if they were, the point of the trade would be to pair that player with Rondo. 

the fascination with trading our best player for crap to make this team worse astounds me

Oh there it is! You would deal him... Hey I knew u had it in you..

[flybono]

I dont think Rondo is getting moved this season, my gut feeling is that DA lets it ride and hopes for fireworks this offseason.


That being said,

My 3 team deal

Cs get Henson, Stauskas
Cs trade Rondo

Kings get Rondo
Kings trade Collison, Stauskas, Williams, loto protected 1st

Bucks get Collison, D Williams, kings 1st
Bucks trade Henson

Cs, Not the greatest of trades for the Cs but they get two high value young players. More trade involving Bass and or green would likely have to follow.

Kings, get Rondo creating a core of Rondo, Cousins and Gay

Bucks, get a starting PG and allow Knight to play his more natural role as a SG. The first takes some of the sting out of trading Henson but they haven't played him a lot so I question how much the franchise values him. This is not a great trade for the bucks but one that might help them start winning more games and building their young core. 

Rondo's going nowhere this season.  no reason to trade him.

having said that, Henson and Stauskas for Rondo is horrible.  just horrible.  we're loaded at SG already and Henson would have a **** of a time getting minutes here as it is and that's with our current roster. 

Rondo should only be traded if we're getting a better player back.  period.  the likelihood someone better would be coming here in a trade is unlikely and if they were, the point of the trade would be to pair that player with Rondo. 

the fascination with trading our best player for crap to make this team worse astounds me

Your fascination with Rondo astounds the rest of us. Rondo is a great player, an All-Star no doubt, but his value as a franchise player is fairly debatable and he's going to be a free agent at the end of the year, asking for a max, as he enters the last stint of his prime. Perhaps he'll buck the trend of 28-32 year old All-Stars leaving young, mediocre teams for greener grasses, but that's hardly something you can bank on when rebuilding a team from scratch.

I personally like the trade I proposed a few pages ago in which we net McLemore, Henson and Thomas Robinson, but this trade isn't nearly as bad as you make it seem. Stauskas was a top ten pick in one of the better drafts of the last decade. We're not "loaded" at SG, we have Avery Bradley and Marcus Thornton (expiring contract). Turner and James Young are better suited at SF. So essentially we'd have a three-guard rotation of Smart, Bradley and Stauskas. Hardly overcrowded, but even if you consider it to be, why is that a bad problem to have?

Henson has legit potential as a two-way center who fulfills our greatest needs: shot-blocking and athletic low post D as a whole. He's only 23 and has put on the weight to play center. Perhaps you should do your research before suggesting that you don't want another PF stuck behind Sullynyk in a Rondo trade.

If you rent the limo, I'll drive Rondo to the AirPort Brother..
Finally a sensible fan here in 2015!

[Celtics4ever]

I have Ben Mclemore in one of my fantasy leagues.  Amazing to me that people can call a 21 year old kid a "bust" after a single season.  He proved he could shoot in College.   I still expect him to have a solid career.

So far in 10 games he's averaging 10 points with shooting percentages of 45%/41%/87%

No thanks

I love the 9.6  PER and .2 Defensive Win Shares and DRtg of 109.  That means out of 100 possessions he is giving up 109 points which is awful.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mclembe01.html

yes, he has shown some improvement but face it he had no where to go but up.

[Vermont Green]

These Rondo trade idea threads always end up circular.  If you think that the Celtics will sign Rondo in the off season, then no trade proposal is going to be good enough for you.  They are all going to seem like low value.  Minni was able to get Wiggins and not much else for Love.  Someone else discussed the Harden trade, Lamb and some picks?  Kevin Garnett got Al Jefferson and a couple of picks. 

If you think in terms of get what you can get before you lose Rondo for nothing, your perspective is very different.  Or if you are afraid the only way to keep Rondo is to overpay for Rondo, then these  trades look pretty good.

So McLemore and some picks for Rondo is either really bad or really good, depending on where you sit regarding resigning Rondo.  I would be happy with McLemore and the rest of the proposed Sac package.  We end up with an imbalance roster but we can sort that out later.

[Eddie20]

These Rondo trade idea threads always end up circular.  If you think that the Celtics will sign Rondo in the off season, then no trade proposal is going to be good enough for you.  They are all going to seem like low value.  Minni was able to get Wiggins and not much else for Love.  Someone else discussed the Harden trade, Lamb and some picks?  Kevin Garnett got Al Jefferson and a couple of picks. 

If you think in terms of get what you can get before you lose Rondo for nothing, your perspective is very different.  Or if you are afraid the only way to keep Rondo is to overpay for Rondo, then these  trades look pretty good.

So McLemore and some picks for Rondo is either really bad or really good, depending on where you sit regarding resigning Rondo.  I would be happy with McLemore and the rest of the proposed Sac package.  We end up with an imbalance roster but we can sort that out later.

Again, right on. I will add that another variable is Smart and what position one thinks he's best suited for. If it's PG, which I think because he can use his strength to overpower smaller guards, then that plays into getting value (even if it's not that great) for Rondo and not overpaying to re-sign him this summer.

[snively]

Klay Thompson was drafted a year older than McLemore was when he was drafted, and it's also worth noting that McLemore is playing on a team that already has two alpha dog scorers. Thompson walked on to a team that was asking him to score right away. As LarBrd suggests, if McLemore was asked to shoot 15 shots a game, it's likely he'd be putting up similar numbers.

In Terrence Ross' second season he averaged 11 ppg on 42/39.5/84% shooting.

Bradley Beal is the only player you have a real argument with, and still, the shot attempt excuse applies.

If Keith Bogans was ever a 21 year old scoring 10 points a game on 45% shooting from the field and 41% shooting from behind the arc on a winning team, then yes, McLemore is playing that role.

If Boogie and half a season of Gay count as 2 alpha dog scorers, what do Curry, Lee and half a season Monta count as?

If you go per 36, Ross has been at 14/15/15 in his 3 seasons.  And he's on the lower end of the promising SG prospect roster.  B-Mac is at 11, same as last year (just more efficient).

Just look at Bogans per 36 stats for his career.  That's the kind of role McLemore is playing. He could always break out into a higher usage role, but the point I'm making is that he hasn't.  And it's not like all similar prospects play the Bogans role when they are starting out, as the examples of Thompson, Beal and to a lesser extent Ross attest.

[KGs Knee]

I sometimes wonder if there isn't a point where the same cast of characters that on a daily basis go back and forth over the same rehashed Rondo-centric debates don't get a little bit bored.

Seriously, every day it's the same exact crew arguing the same exact points.  That can't possibly be stimulating, can it?

[BballTim]

To think you would rather have soon to be 29 year old Rondo over just turned 21 year old Drummond going forward is laughable. Drummond is one of the most unattainable players in the league for good reason. The guy averaged 13.5 PPG, 13.2 RPG, 1.6 BPG, and shot 62% from the field. Is he limited offensively and a liability at the FT line? Sure, but Rondo isn't? However, one player is a big (something we lack) and one player is a PG (a position we just drafted).

You probably haven't seen Drummond play that much, if at all, and bash him simply because many say they would trade Rondo for him.

  And I'd guess that you don't know much about him other than his stats and youtube dunk highlights. You also don't seem to be able to differentiate between the league leader in assists and a player who's team plays close to 4 on 5 on offense with him when you use "offensively limited", which is pretty unsurprising.

Right, because Drummond in only his second season averaged (13.5) almost identical to Rondo's career high (13.7).

By that "4 on 5" comment I can definitely tell you haven't seen Drummond play. The guy is is an inside player, who usually scores off of putbacks and rolls to the basket, and has to be covered all the time because he plays inside. Are you trying to insinuate that teams leave him alone under the basket? This you know, is part of the problem with Detroit. Monroe and Drummond both need to be inside. Drummond's presence has caused Monroe to change his game an be further out than he needs to be.

  Congrats on noticing that Drummond is an inside player. The reason for the 4v5 comment, by the way, is because his teammates rarely give him the ball in the half court. Again, if you knew much about him you'd have been able to figure that out on your own.

It's funny that you used that "4 on 5" because how many teams do exactly that on us when Rondo doesn't have the ball?

  Not really. First of all, the claim that we play other teams 4v5 when Rondo doesn't have the ball is pretty absurd because Rondo has the ball more than anyone else on the team when he's in the game. Secondly, it's not true that we play 4v5 when Rondo doesn't have the ball because the team frequently passes the ball back to him when he doesn't have it. Lastly, you seem to be under the impression that defenders stick closely to most players when they don't have the ball but Rondo's defender completely ignores Rondo and wanders all over the court. That's just nonsense.

 

I also noticed you edited my post and didn't want to discuss Rondo's other stellar contributions in the last minute of the Cavs game.

  Sure, we should talk about the whole game though, or at least the whole half. I'm sure you documented his play in the 3rd quarter in the same detail as those last few play. Why don't you post that and we'll talk.

[LooseCannon]

These Rondo trade idea threads always end up circular.  If you think that the Celtics will sign Rondo in the off season, then no trade proposal is going to be good enough for you.  They are all going to seem like low value.  Minni was able to get Wiggins and not much else for Love.  Someone else discussed the Harden trade, Lamb and some picks?  Kevin Garnett got Al Jefferson and a couple of picks. 

If you think in terms of get what you can get before you lose Rondo for nothing, your perspective is very different.  Or if you are afraid the only way to keep Rondo is to overpay for Rondo, then these  trades look pretty good.

So McLemore and some picks for Rondo is either really bad or really good, depending on where you sit regarding resigning Rondo.  I would be happy with McLemore and the rest of the proposed Sac package.  We end up with an imbalance roster but we can sort that out later.

If you trade Rondo, the tentative starting lineup looks like Smart/Bradley/Green/Sullinger/Olynyk.  Maybe you can't get the All-Star that I want back in exchange for Rondo, but if you're taking back young guys, at least give me someone who would be an upgrade if inserted into the starting lineup.  I like Bradley more than McLemore.  I don't think some of the proposed names like Henson and Robinson should become starters over Olynyk and Sullinger.

[TheFlex]

Klay Thompson was drafted a year older than McLemore was when he was drafted, and it's also worth noting that McLemore is playing on a team that already has two alpha dog scorers. Thompson walked on to a team that was asking him to score right away. As LarBrd suggests, if McLemore was asked to shoot 15 shots a game, it's likely he'd be putting up similar numbers.

In Terrence Ross' second season he averaged 11 ppg on 42/39.5/84% shooting.

Bradley Beal is the only player you have a real argument with, and still, the shot attempt excuse applies.

If Keith Bogans was ever a 21 year old scoring 10 points a game on 45% shooting from the field and 41% shooting from behind the arc on a winning team, then yes, McLemore is playing that role.

If Boogie and half a season of Gay count as 2 alpha dog scorers, what do Curry, Lee and half a season Monta count as?

If you go per 36, Ross has been at 14/15/15 in his 3 seasons.  And he's on the lower end of the promising SG prospect roster.  B-Mac is at 11, same as last year (just more efficient).

Just look at Bogans per 36 stats for his career.  That's the kind of role McLemore is playing. He could always break out into a higher usage role, but the point I'm making is that he hasn't.  And it's not like all similar prospects play the Bogans role when they are starting out, as the examples of Thompson, Beal and to a lesser extent Ross attest.

You bring up some good points. One gripe:

Let's look at Thompson pre-Ellis trade vs. post-Ellis trade. Ellis was traded on March 13th. Keep in mind this was the lockout season. In the months of December, January and February, Thompson's usage rate was 15.5, 21.5 and 21.7 respectively. In the months of March and April, his usage rate jumped up to 27.5 and 26.1, respectively. Similarly, in the months of December, January and February, Thompson's ppg was 3.0, 7.7, and 8.1. In March and April, his ppg skyrocketed up to 16.4 and 18.1, respectively.

Part of this differential can be attributed to a rookie learning curve. We saw Kelly Olynyk go from an end-of-the-bench guy to one of our most reliable shooters all in the course of a season. Part of it can be attributed to the fact that he had a star playing directly in front of him. However, it cannot be ignored that part of this must be attributed to the fact that he was playing with a star in general. I don't think it's ridiculous to say that if Ellis remained on the team, Thompson's emergence as a star would've taken a little bit longer.

I also have to point out that I was largely referring to McLemore's second, current season alone. We can all admit that McLemore had an extremely disappointing rookie season, and so I was comparing his sophomore numbers with the sophomore season numbers of the other guards mentioned. Thus, I viewed the DMC/Gay duo to be more "alpha" than the Curry/Lee duo. Part of this assumption has to do with my perception of Lee being a guy who scores a lot off of second chance opportunities and put-backs (as well as being the worst player out of DMC, Gay, Curry and himself). I will concede the small sample size, but not surprisingly, the combined usage rate of DMC and Gay so far this year (60.3%) trumps the highest combined usage rate on the 2012-13 Warriors squad (Lee/Curry, 49.6%) by almost 11 percentage points. This, to me, is the reason why McLemore is not getting a greater share of shots despite shooting efficiently.

Interestingly enough, Thompson's sophomore year usage rate actually decreased to 21.8 from 24.7. My guess is this has to do with adjusting to life without Ellis and life with Bogut. Curry's usage rate jumped from 24.0 in Thompson's rookie year (2011-12) to 26.4 his sophomore year (2012-13). Also, in 2011-12, GSW's two most highly used centers pre-Bogut, Andris Biedrins and Ekpe Udoh, had a combined usage rate of 18.9. In 2012-13, Bogut alone had a usage rate of 13.4.

Out of all this, my point is basically that McLemore is showing tons of promise right now and I believe he is ready to take the next step in becoming a star: shouldering more responsibility.