So No Rondo, No Triple Double and We Win

[Jailan34]

While I think this thread was a little troll-y at first I do think after watching so many games where Rondo doesn't play that, surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference. I don't think we look considerably better or worse, which is strange because I feel like if your team is missing its best player it was be extremely noticeable. Can we really give anything over $15 million to a player with this little visible impact?

Ask yourself this, then.

Let him walk or trade Rondo.

What viable avenues do you see for our Celtics then? Who do you propose we bring in after Rondo is gone? How soon do you see this team competing for a playoff spot, much less Banners, after Rondo walks or is traded (as you and others here are implying).

A PG set up of Marcus Smart and a frontline of Towns/Okafor will not get us to the playoffs for a few years.

But it will be very entertaining, at least.

I've always been in favor of building through the draft and trades because I don't believe in our ability to sign an A level free agent. So I would be fine with a longer, slower rebuild and watching our young prospects learn to play together.

[GreenFaith1819]

We basically have three years of proof that the team wins more when Rondo sits. Check the win loss records.  We lose his playmaking ability, but having competent scorers out there is a powerful thing.


We were dreadful last year in games rondo played. I think we won 3 out of 33 games or something.

The year prior we were under 500 until rondo got hurt and the team rallied and made the playoffs.

Rondo is a terrific player and can be big in the right system, but his contributions are a bit overrated.

i was perhaps the first poster to broach this topic consistently here and the numbers you cite need deeper analysis. yes, in the celtics w/l record over the past 2 seasons + 6 games the celtics win more without rondo than with him. but, not dramatically so. last year is hard to count (or needs to be counted very carefully) given his recovery from injury. this year, he did not make training camp and it is, after all, 6 games.

the way i put the conundrum was to ask WHY the celtics w/l record does not reflect what rondo is supposed to bring to this team, an improved offense and defense and thus more wins. any possible answer can NOT be provided after 6 games this season, but only at mid-season or later.

2011-12
w/out
8 wins 5 losses
win percentage 62%

with
31 wins 22 losses
win percentage 58%

2012-13
w/out
21 wins 17 losses
win percentage 55%

with
20 wins 23 losses
win percentage 46%

2013-14
w/out
19 wins 33 loses
win percentage 36%

with
6 wins 24 losses
win percentage 20%

2014-15
w/out
1 win 0 losses
win percentage 100%

with
2 wins 3 losses
win percentage 40%

Add to this the fact that Rondo was the 32nd ranked point guard in PER last season and is the 26th ranked point guard in PER this season, and it's a case closed

Also add that Rondo was INJURED most of last season, and is not healthy yet this season (See screw removal this weekend).

That's nonsense. I've had that pin removal done a few times and there is nothing to it. You get some local anesthesia, a small incision, pin is removed with what looks like pliers, you get a couple of stitches, and you're done. There is very little swelling and you get the stitches removed a week later.

And I also gather that you're a future HOF PG and athlete?

Uh, what? So that gives him a slower recovery time?

No, it means that you somehow know how the injury is affecting him, based off of your own experiences.

No, it actually means that I'm fairly certain it's a non-issue based on my own experiences with a similar injury. Conversely, it means that you somehow know the injury is affecting him, based on no experience of the injury. I assure you that if you have, you wouldn't have made that initial post.

Well, being that it was YOU who made the 1st assumption - I had to beg the question.

Really? I merely posted our record with and without over the last several seasons and you followed up with...

not healthy yet this season (See screw removal this weekend).

Eddie - your post was this:

That's nonsense. I've had that pin removal done a few times and there is nothing to it. You get some local anesthesia, a small incision, pin is removed with what looks like pliers, you get a couple of stitches, and you're done. There is very little swelling and you get the stitches removed a week later.

At which point began the discussion of how you could possibly know how the injury is affecting him being that you are assumedly not an athlete or NBA PG.

[Eddie20]

While I think this thread was a little troll-y at first I do think after watching so many games where Rondo doesn't play that, surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference. I don't think we look considerably better or worse, which is strange because I feel like if your team is missing its best player it was be extremely noticeable. Can we really give anything over $15 million to a player with this little visible impact?

Ask yourself this, then.

Let him walk or trade Rondo.

What viable avenues do you see for our Celtics then? Who do you propose we bring in after Rondo is gone? How soon do you see this team competing for a playoff spot, much less Banners, after Rondo walks or is traded (as you and others here are implying).

A PG set up of Marcus Smart and a frontline of Towns/Okafor will not get us to the playoffs for a few years.

But it will be very entertaining, at least.

Rondo is turning 29 in a couple of months and we've already seen how he's played (last season) when his explosiveness/athleticism is lacking. Do you think that by the time we're able to contend his game and contract will have positive or negative value?

And you are forgetting that he was injured last year.

KG was 31 when he got here and was well beyond his athletic/youthful years.

Marc Gasol is the choice of many posters on here (vs KLove) of players to bring here to BOS and he can barely jump over a phone book.

What makes you think that Rondo will be less effective at this stage of his career? Even a few years from now?

His game is based on intelligence, like most future HOF PGs.

You're comparing apples to oranges there. KG and Gasol are bigs, Rondo is a small guard. Not to mention that Rondo's game depends a lot on athleticism since his shooting skills never developed. It will be much easier to defend him once the fear of him getting passed you is removed. Play up on him when he has the ball and sag off him when he doesn't.

[Eddie20]

We basically have three years of proof that the team wins more when Rondo sits. Check the win loss records.  We lose his playmaking ability, but having competent scorers out there is a powerful thing.


We were dreadful last year in games rondo played. I think we won 3 out of 33 games or something.

The year prior we were under 500 until rondo got hurt and the team rallied and made the playoffs.

Rondo is a terrific player and can be big in the right system, but his contributions are a bit overrated.

i was perhaps the first poster to broach this topic consistently here and the numbers you cite need deeper analysis. yes, in the celtics w/l record over the past 2 seasons + 6 games the celtics win more without rondo than with him. but, not dramatically so. last year is hard to count (or needs to be counted very carefully) given his recovery from injury. this year, he did not make training camp and it is, after all, 6 games.

the way i put the conundrum was to ask WHY the celtics w/l record does not reflect what rondo is supposed to bring to this team, an improved offense and defense and thus more wins. any possible answer can NOT be provided after 6 games this season, but only at mid-season or later.

2011-12
w/out
8 wins 5 losses
win percentage 62%

with
31 wins 22 losses
win percentage 58%

2012-13
w/out
21 wins 17 losses
win percentage 55%

with
20 wins 23 losses
win percentage 46%

2013-14
w/out
19 wins 33 loses
win percentage 36%

with
6 wins 24 losses
win percentage 20%

2014-15
w/out
1 win 0 losses
win percentage 100%

with
2 wins 3 losses
win percentage 40%

Add to this the fact that Rondo was the 32nd ranked point guard in PER last season and is the 26th ranked point guard in PER this season, and it's a case closed

Also add that Rondo was INJURED most of last season, and is not healthy yet this season (See screw removal this weekend).

That's nonsense. I've had that pin removal done a few times and there is nothing to it. You get some local anesthesia, a small incision, pin is removed with what looks like pliers, you get a couple of stitches, and you're done. There is very little swelling and you get the stitches removed a week later.

And I also gather that you're a future HOF PG and athlete?

Uh, what? So that gives him a slower recovery time?

No, it means that you somehow know how the injury is affecting him, based off of your own experiences.

No, it actually means that I'm fairly certain it's a non-issue based on my own experiences with a similar injury. Conversely, it means that you somehow know the injury is affecting him, based on no experience of the injury. I assure you that if you have, you wouldn't have made that initial post.

Well, being that it was YOU who made the 1st assumption - I had to beg the question.

Really? I merely posted our record with and without over the last several seasons and you followed up with...

not healthy yet this season (See screw removal this weekend).

Eddie - your post was this:

That's nonsense. I've had that pin removal done a few times and there is nothing to it. You get some local anesthesia, a small incision, pin is removed with what looks like pliers, you get a couple of stitches, and you're done. There is very little swelling and you get the stitches removed a week later.

At which point began the discussion of how you could possibly know how the injury is affecting him being that you are assumedly not an athlete or NBA PG.

Again, you made the initial assumption that he's not healthy without ever having that simple 10-15 minute outpatient procedure done.

[GreenFaith1819]

While I think this thread was a little troll-y at first I do think after watching so many games where Rondo doesn't play that, surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference. I don't think we look considerably better or worse, which is strange because I feel like if your team is missing its best player it was be extremely noticeable. Can we really give anything over $15 million to a player with this little visible impact?

Ask yourself this, then.

Let him walk or trade Rondo.

What viable avenues do you see for our Celtics then? Who do you propose we bring in after Rondo is gone? How soon do you see this team competing for a playoff spot, much less Banners, after Rondo walks or is traded (as you and others here are implying).

A PG set up of Marcus Smart and a frontline of Towns/Okafor will not get us to the playoffs for a few years.

But it will be very entertaining, at least.

I've always been in favor of building through the draft and trades because I don't believe in our ability to sign an A level free agent. So I would be fine with a longer, slower rebuild and watching our young prospects learn to play together.

The only fallacy with that is only recent success was OKC in doing this. And even then they had to have several other factors happen:

A very shrewd GM in Presti (who was groomed in San Antonio).

Outright luck in the draft.

Several smart moves to acquire necessary pieces (See Perkins).

Even with all that, OKC has only one Finals appearance.

While I respect that path you suggest, it is asking for a LOT of things to fall in place.

[GreenFaith1819]

While I think this thread was a little troll-y at first I do think after watching so many games where Rondo doesn't play that, surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference. I don't think we look considerably better or worse, which is strange because I feel like if your team is missing its best player it was be extremely noticeable. Can we really give anything over $15 million to a player with this little visible impact?

Ask yourself this, then.

Let him walk or trade Rondo.

What viable avenues do you see for our Celtics then? Who do you propose we bring in after Rondo is gone? How soon do you see this team competing for a playoff spot, much less Banners, after Rondo walks or is traded (as you and others here are implying).

A PG set up of Marcus Smart and a frontline of Towns/Okafor will not get us to the playoffs for a few years.

But it will be very entertaining, at least.

Rondo is turning 29 in a couple of months and we've already seen how he's played (last season) when his explosiveness/athleticism is lacking. Do you think that by the time we're able to contend his game and contract will have positive or negative value?

And you are forgetting that he was injured last year.

KG was 31 when he got here and was well beyond his athletic/youthful years.

Marc Gasol is the choice of many posters on here (vs KLove) of players to bring here to BOS and he can barely jump over a phone book.

What makes you think that Rondo will be less effective at this stage of his career? Even a few years from now?

His game is based on intelligence, like most future HOF PGs.

You're comparing apples to oranges there. KG and Gasol are bigs, Rondo is a small guard. Not to mention that Rondo's game depends a lot on athleticism since his shooting skills never developed. It will be much easier to defend him once the fear of him getting passed you is removed. Play up on him when he has the ball and sag off him when he doesn't.

I believe Rajon Rondo's game is based off his intelligence and he will have many more successful years in the league because of it.

I mentioned Gasol and KG because they play with intelligence as well, much less athleticism.

And I've seen posters on here post statistics about Rajon's shooting and it's simply not as bad as some here state, and it is improving.

[Jailan34]

While I think this thread was a little troll-y at first I do think after watching so many games where Rondo doesn't play that, surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference. I don't think we look considerably better or worse, which is strange because I feel like if your team is missing its best player it was be extremely noticeable. Can we really give anything over $15 million to a player with this little visible impact?

Ask yourself this, then.

Let him walk or trade Rondo.

What viable avenues do you see for our Celtics then? Who do you propose we bring in after Rondo is gone? How soon do you see this team competing for a playoff spot, much less Banners, after Rondo walks or is traded (as you and others here are implying).

A PG set up of Marcus Smart and a frontline of Towns/Okafor will not get us to the playoffs for a few years.

But it will be very entertaining, at least.

I've always been in favor of building through the draft and trades because I don't believe in our ability to sign an A level free agent. So I would be fine with a longer, slower rebuild and watching our young prospects learn to play together.

The only fallacy with that is only recent success was OKC in doing this. And even then they had to have several other factors happen:

A very shrewd GM in Presti (who was groomed in San Antonio).

Outright luck in the draft.

Several smart moves to acquire necessary pieces (See Perkins).

Even with all that, OKC has only one Finals appearance.

While I respect that path you suggest, it is asking for a LOT of things to fall in place.

I said trade and draft, getting good picks can be used in trades. Which is why I'm for player development, it leads to more losses and our younger players get time to grow. Then with our young players/picks it gives us two avenues to rebuild, make a big trade or continue developing talent.

I support this view over one such as trading for a center immediately and trying to win this year. Its just not going to happen.

[GreenFaith1819]

Eddie20 - I've seen your epic 50-thread matches on here with BBallTim and I know I won't win a debate with you, lol.

Your posting strategy is based off of circular thinking and ignoring other poster's comments while focusing on yours only.

But I've thoroughly enjoyed making my side known.

What is being pointed out is that there is definitely a movement on here to get Rondo out of town based off of some opinionated observations about his game (Thus, this thread).

The pretty Cadillacs of the NBA (See CP3 and Westbrook) get free passes even though they too have flaws - and haven't won a banner yet (like Rondo has).

Even with THAT, Rondo's Banner was because of 3 future HOFers, right? So he is worth trading supposedly.

CP3's excuse is that he will also have 3 or 4 future HOFers (Blake, Doc Rivers, Tyson) potentially DeAndre as well.

ESPN posted a very small article (that was gone the next day, haha) about CP3's legacy - right after he made some mistakes and the Clips lost in the playoffs last year.

While I love CP3 and Westbrook as a fanbase we also should recognize the gift we have here in Rondo and not try to post one-sided stats that try to disprove his worth.



After this post, Eddie - you can have the last word. I have no desire in making this a 50 page thread with you.

[blink]

We basically have three years of proof that the team wins more when Rondo sits. Check the win loss records.  We lose his playmaking ability, but having competent scorers out there is a powerful thing.


We were dreadful last year in games rondo played. I think we won 3 out of 33 games or something.

The year prior we were under 500 until rondo got hurt and the team rallied and made the playoffs.

Rondo is a terrific player and can be big in the right system, but his contributions are a bit overrated.

i was perhaps the first poster to broach this topic consistently here and the numbers you cite need deeper analysis. yes, in the celtics w/l record over the past 2 seasons + 6 games the celtics win more without rondo than with him. but, not dramatically so. last year is hard to count (or needs to be counted very carefully) given his recovery from injury. this year, he did not make training camp and it is, after all, 6 games.

the way i put the conundrum was to ask WHY the celtics w/l record does not reflect what rondo is supposed to bring to this team, an improved offense and defense and thus more wins. any possible answer can NOT be provided after 6 games this season, but only at mid-season or later.

2011-12
w/out
8 wins 5 losses
win percentage 62%

with
31 wins 22 losses
win percentage 58%

2012-13
w/out
21 wins 17 losses
win percentage 55%

with
20 wins 23 losses
win percentage 46%

2013-14
w/out
19 wins 33 loses
win percentage 36%

with
6 wins 24 losses
win percentage 20%

2014-15
w/out
1 win 0 losses
win percentage 100%

with
2 wins 3 losses
win percentage 40%

For a number of reasons I don't believe there is a whole lot of value to those numbers without going into detail about the context.  To me there are way too many variables, and it isn't that simple.

1)  The main reason I disagree with this approach is you are trying to compare RR's impact on different rosters from very different years where there is a significant change of the other players on the team, the coaching staff, the approach to the season.  They were vastly different teams, yet you are trying to extrapolate data as if the only difference was if RR was playing or not.  That isn't the case.

2) The record itself tells us nothing about the context for those games.  Who else was out for the game, what games were 2nd night of back to backs, who were the teams they were playing, did we get on hot streak, were we already in the middle of an extended time of overall poor team play.

3)  In 2013-2014 RR was coming back from an ACL injury.  It is widely accepted, from both DA, BS, and the team themselves that Rondo wasn't completely recovered.  He wasn't playing on a consistent basis, playing a night on, taking a night off.  He wasn't recovered.  We were a very bad team as well.  So the year with the biggest % change in wins and losses with or without Rondo is a pretty flawed stat, unless you think he is never going to recover from his ACL injury.  I don't think most people would judge a players value to their team based on games they played when recovering from a significant injury.  It just isn't a reasonable assumption.

4)  Not enough sample size in 2011-2012, 2014-2015. 

5)  In 2011-2012 we were 11-9 in the playoffs with Rondo playing and making significant contributions to us nearly getting back to the nba finals.  In 2012-2013 Rondo was injured and we looked terrible in losing in the first round to the knicks 4-2.

2011-2012 playoff record w/ Rondo 11-9
2012-2013 playoff record w/out Rondo 2-4

If you are going to claim that we are a much better team w/out rondo, then the won loss records in the playoffs should seem to be just as an important stat to consider. 

I for one, don't claim that Rondo is the best point guard in the nba, I don't claim that we can't win without him.  But I disagree with the logic of trying to take out small samples of data from multiple years where the teams, coaches and approaches were vastly different and try to place reward or blame all on one player.

[Who]

Why? Why is it every time the Celtics win without Rondo, threads like these pop up?

The same thing happens with most team's star player when that team is suffering through mediocrity.

Wolves fans worry same thing with K-Love. Big numbers but not enough wins. No playoffs.
Raptors fans with Bosh when he was there.
Last rebuilding, lots of fans though Pierce needed to go so team could fully rebuild and start moving forward again.

Loads more examples all around the league.

This type of thread with Rondo is common across the league with other star players in similar situations with their team -- stuck in mediocrity, fans worry how team will improve in future and become a title contender.

It's not unique. It's not just a Rondo thing. It is a common reaction to star players on teams when teams are not winning enough.

[bobbyv]

By that logic, we should get rid of Marcus Smart too while we're at it. He was obviously holding the team back.

[Tr1boy]

Why? Why is it every time the Celtics win without Rondo, threads like these pop up?

The same thing happens with most team's star player when that team is suffering through mediocrity.

Wolves fans worry same thing with K-Love. Big numbers but not enough wins. No playoffs.
Raptors fans with Bosh when he was there.
Last rebuilding, lots of fans though Pierce needed to go so team could fully rebuild and start moving forward again.

Loads more examples all around the league.

This type of thread with Rondo is common across the league with other star players in similar situations with their team -- stuck in mediocrity, fans worry how team will improve in future and become a title contender.

It's not unique. It's not just a Rondo thing. It is a common reaction to star players on teams when teams are not winning enough.

Not exactly. Its one thing if you dont win with or without your main player. But if your team plays better without him, and or wins start to add up then the fans have the right to question

[blink]

Why? Why is it every time the Celtics win without Rondo, threads like these pop up?

The same thing happens with most team's star player when that team is suffering through mediocrity.

Wolves fans worry same thing with K-Love. Big numbers but not enough wins. No playoffs.
Raptors fans with Bosh when he was there.
Last rebuilding, lots of fans though Pierce needed to go so team could fully rebuild and start moving forward again.

Loads more examples all around the league.

This type of thread with Rondo is common across the league with other star players in similar situations with their team -- stuck in mediocrity, fans worry how team will improve in future and become a title contender.

It's not unique. It's not just a Rondo thing. It is a common reaction to star players on teams when teams are not winning enough.

Nice post, with some good context.  I was wondering, since I wasn't around this site at that time, were there a lot of negative posts about PP circa 2004/2005/2006 before KG / RA?

[Chris22]

We have a higher winning percentage without Rondo than with him over the last four years.

Rondo ranked 29th and 26th in PER for all point guards the last two years.

There is no reason to resign Rondo. Trade him now.

[Tr1boy]

  On Saturday night, five players finished with four or more assists, led by Turner who replaced Rondo in the starting lineup with six of his own. Jared Sullinger, Jeff Green, Tyler Zeller and Phil Pressey were the others.

Spurs style basketball