So No Rondo, No Triple Double and We Win

[incoherent]

Why? Why is it every time the Celtics win without Rondo, threads like these pop up?

Really? Do you realize Rondo is in a contract year? This is all were going to talk about all year until Danny does something one way or the other.

[Surferdad]

I'm starting to think there might be something to this.  Of course the Bulls were fatigued but you can't discount the fact that our offense flowed better without Rondo and it's been like that everytime we play without Rondo.  Very small sample but I do see it and I'm a big Rondo fan.  I just hope that we can flip him for a center when we decide to trade him.

Regarding "offensive flow", what your eyes are seeing is more passing, which makes sense given that your best ball-handler is not playing, but does that translate into a better outcome?  For example, Rondo can make some impossibly brilliant passes that lead directly to an easy score. This is his best skill as everyone knows.  Somebody would have to do in-depth analysis to determine if the outcomes are better.  More passing or "offensive flow" is not always better as you risk intercepted passes more. I accept a bit more of "Rondo pounding the ball" if it leads to the right pass for an easier bucket.

[GreenFaith1819]

We basically have three years of proof that the team wins more when Rondo sits. Check the win loss records.  We lose his playmaking ability, but having competent scorers out there is a powerful thing.


We were dreadful last year in games rondo played. I think we won 3 out of 33 games or something.

The year prior we were under 500 until rondo got hurt and the team rallied and made the playoffs.

Rondo is a terrific player and can be big in the right system, but his contributions are a bit overrated.

i was perhaps the first poster to broach this topic consistently here and the numbers you cite need deeper analysis. yes, in the celtics w/l record over the past 2 seasons + 6 games the celtics win more without rondo than with him. but, not dramatically so. last year is hard to count (or needs to be counted very carefully) given his recovery from injury. this year, he did not make training camp and it is, after all, 6 games.

the way i put the conundrum was to ask WHY the celtics w/l record does not reflect what rondo is supposed to bring to this team, an improved offense and defense and thus more wins. any possible answer can NOT be provided after 6 games this season, but only at mid-season or later.

2011-12
w/out
8 wins 5 losses
win percentage 62%

with
31 wins 22 losses
win percentage 58%

2012-13
w/out
21 wins 17 losses
win percentage 55%

with
20 wins 23 losses
win percentage 46%

2013-14
w/out
19 wins 33 loses
win percentage 36%

with
6 wins 24 losses
win percentage 20%

2014-15
w/out
1 win 0 losses
win percentage 100%

with
2 wins 3 losses
win percentage 40%

Add to this the fact that Rondo was the 32nd ranked point guard in PER last season and is the 26th ranked point guard in PER this season, and it's a case closed

Also add that Rondo was INJURED most of last season, and is not healthy yet this season (See screw removal this weekend).

[Eddie20]

We basically have three years of proof that the team wins more when Rondo sits. Check the win loss records.  We lose his playmaking ability, but having competent scorers out there is a powerful thing.


We were dreadful last year in games rondo played. I think we won 3 out of 33 games or something.

The year prior we were under 500 until rondo got hurt and the team rallied and made the playoffs.

Rondo is a terrific player and can be big in the right system, but his contributions are a bit overrated.

i was perhaps the first poster to broach this topic consistently here and the numbers you cite need deeper analysis. yes, in the celtics w/l record over the past 2 seasons + 6 games the celtics win more without rondo than with him. but, not dramatically so. last year is hard to count (or needs to be counted very carefully) given his recovery from injury. this year, he did not make training camp and it is, after all, 6 games.

the way i put the conundrum was to ask WHY the celtics w/l record does not reflect what rondo is supposed to bring to this team, an improved offense and defense and thus more wins. any possible answer can NOT be provided after 6 games this season, but only at mid-season or later.

2011-12
w/out
8 wins 5 losses
win percentage 62%

with
31 wins 22 losses
win percentage 58%

2012-13
w/out
21 wins 17 losses
win percentage 55%

with
20 wins 23 losses
win percentage 46%

2013-14
w/out
19 wins 33 loses
win percentage 36%

with
6 wins 24 losses
win percentage 20%

2014-15
w/out
1 win 0 losses
win percentage 100%

with
2 wins 3 losses
win percentage 40%

Add to this the fact that Rondo was the 32nd ranked point guard in PER last season and is the 26th ranked point guard in PER this season, and it's a case closed

Also add that Rondo was INJURED most of last season, and is not healthy yet this season (See screw removal this weekend).

That's nonsense. I've had that pin removal done a few times and there is nothing to it. You get some local anesthesia, a small incision, pin is removed with what looks like pliers, you get a couple of stitches, and you're done. There is very little swelling and you get the stitches removed a week later.

[GreenFaith1819]

We basically have three years of proof that the team wins more when Rondo sits. Check the win loss records.  We lose his playmaking ability, but having competent scorers out there is a powerful thing.


We were dreadful last year in games rondo played. I think we won 3 out of 33 games or something.

The year prior we were under 500 until rondo got hurt and the team rallied and made the playoffs.

Rondo is a terrific player and can be big in the right system, but his contributions are a bit overrated.

i was perhaps the first poster to broach this topic consistently here and the numbers you cite need deeper analysis. yes, in the celtics w/l record over the past 2 seasons + 6 games the celtics win more without rondo than with him. but, not dramatically so. last year is hard to count (or needs to be counted very carefully) given his recovery from injury. this year, he did not make training camp and it is, after all, 6 games.

the way i put the conundrum was to ask WHY the celtics w/l record does not reflect what rondo is supposed to bring to this team, an improved offense and defense and thus more wins. any possible answer can NOT be provided after 6 games this season, but only at mid-season or later.

2011-12
w/out
8 wins 5 losses
win percentage 62%

with
31 wins 22 losses
win percentage 58%

2012-13
w/out
21 wins 17 losses
win percentage 55%

with
20 wins 23 losses
win percentage 46%

2013-14
w/out
19 wins 33 loses
win percentage 36%

with
6 wins 24 losses
win percentage 20%

2014-15
w/out
1 win 0 losses
win percentage 100%

with
2 wins 3 losses
win percentage 40%

Add to this the fact that Rondo was the 32nd ranked point guard in PER last season and is the 26th ranked point guard in PER this season, and it's a case closed

Also add that Rondo was INJURED most of last season, and is not healthy yet this season (See screw removal this weekend).

That's nonsense. I've had that pin removal done a few times and there is nothing to it. You get some local anesthesia, a small incision, pin is removed with what looks like pliers, you get a couple of stitches, and you're done. There is very little swelling and you get the stitches removed a week later.

And I also gather that you're a future HOF PG and athlete?

[Eddie20]

We basically have three years of proof that the team wins more when Rondo sits. Check the win loss records.  We lose his playmaking ability, but having competent scorers out there is a powerful thing.


We were dreadful last year in games rondo played. I think we won 3 out of 33 games or something.

The year prior we were under 500 until rondo got hurt and the team rallied and made the playoffs.

Rondo is a terrific player and can be big in the right system, but his contributions are a bit overrated.

i was perhaps the first poster to broach this topic consistently here and the numbers you cite need deeper analysis. yes, in the celtics w/l record over the past 2 seasons + 6 games the celtics win more without rondo than with him. but, not dramatically so. last year is hard to count (or needs to be counted very carefully) given his recovery from injury. this year, he did not make training camp and it is, after all, 6 games.

the way i put the conundrum was to ask WHY the celtics w/l record does not reflect what rondo is supposed to bring to this team, an improved offense and defense and thus more wins. any possible answer can NOT be provided after 6 games this season, but only at mid-season or later.

2011-12
w/out
8 wins 5 losses
win percentage 62%

with
31 wins 22 losses
win percentage 58%

2012-13
w/out
21 wins 17 losses
win percentage 55%

with
20 wins 23 losses
win percentage 46%

2013-14
w/out
19 wins 33 loses
win percentage 36%

with
6 wins 24 losses
win percentage 20%

2014-15
w/out
1 win 0 losses
win percentage 100%

with
2 wins 3 losses
win percentage 40%

Add to this the fact that Rondo was the 32nd ranked point guard in PER last season and is the 26th ranked point guard in PER this season, and it's a case closed

Also add that Rondo was INJURED most of last season, and is not healthy yet this season (See screw removal this weekend).

That's nonsense. I've had that pin removal done a few times and there is nothing to it. You get some local anesthesia, a small incision, pin is removed with what looks like pliers, you get a couple of stitches, and you're done. There is very little swelling and you get the stitches removed a week later.

And I also gather that you're a future HOF PG and athlete?

Uh, what? So that gives him a slower recovery time?

[GreenFaith1819]

We basically have three years of proof that the team wins more when Rondo sits. Check the win loss records.  We lose his playmaking ability, but having competent scorers out there is a powerful thing.


We were dreadful last year in games rondo played. I think we won 3 out of 33 games or something.

The year prior we were under 500 until rondo got hurt and the team rallied and made the playoffs.

Rondo is a terrific player and can be big in the right system, but his contributions are a bit overrated.

i was perhaps the first poster to broach this topic consistently here and the numbers you cite need deeper analysis. yes, in the celtics w/l record over the past 2 seasons + 6 games the celtics win more without rondo than with him. but, not dramatically so. last year is hard to count (or needs to be counted very carefully) given his recovery from injury. this year, he did not make training camp and it is, after all, 6 games.

the way i put the conundrum was to ask WHY the celtics w/l record does not reflect what rondo is supposed to bring to this team, an improved offense and defense and thus more wins. any possible answer can NOT be provided after 6 games this season, but only at mid-season or later.

2011-12
w/out
8 wins 5 losses
win percentage 62%

with
31 wins 22 losses
win percentage 58%

2012-13
w/out
21 wins 17 losses
win percentage 55%

with
20 wins 23 losses
win percentage 46%

2013-14
w/out
19 wins 33 loses
win percentage 36%

with
6 wins 24 losses
win percentage 20%

2014-15
w/out
1 win 0 losses
win percentage 100%

with
2 wins 3 losses
win percentage 40%

Add to this the fact that Rondo was the 32nd ranked point guard in PER last season and is the 26th ranked point guard in PER this season, and it's a case closed

Also add that Rondo was INJURED most of last season, and is not healthy yet this season (See screw removal this weekend).

That's nonsense. I've had that pin removal done a few times and there is nothing to it. You get some local anesthesia, a small incision, pin is removed with what looks like pliers, you get a couple of stitches, and you're done. There is very little swelling and you get the stitches removed a week later.

And I also gather that you're a future HOF PG and athlete?

Uh, what? So that gives him a slower recovery time?

No, it means that you somehow know how the injury is affecting him, based off of your own experiences.

It also means that you are squarely in Chris22's corner as to Rondo's worth.

Some posters like to use stats to form their OWN opinions, while not basing them in unbiased truth.

[Jailan34]

While I think this thread was a little troll-y at first I do think after watching so many games where Rondo doesn't play that, surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference. I don't think we look considerably better or worse, which is strange because I feel like if your team is missing its best player it was be extremely noticeable. Can we really give anything over $15 million to a player with this little visible impact?

[Eddie20]

We basically have three years of proof that the team wins more when Rondo sits. Check the win loss records.  We lose his playmaking ability, but having competent scorers out there is a powerful thing.


We were dreadful last year in games rondo played. I think we won 3 out of 33 games or something.

The year prior we were under 500 until rondo got hurt and the team rallied and made the playoffs.

Rondo is a terrific player and can be big in the right system, but his contributions are a bit overrated.

i was perhaps the first poster to broach this topic consistently here and the numbers you cite need deeper analysis. yes, in the celtics w/l record over the past 2 seasons + 6 games the celtics win more without rondo than with him. but, not dramatically so. last year is hard to count (or needs to be counted very carefully) given his recovery from injury. this year, he did not make training camp and it is, after all, 6 games.

the way i put the conundrum was to ask WHY the celtics w/l record does not reflect what rondo is supposed to bring to this team, an improved offense and defense and thus more wins. any possible answer can NOT be provided after 6 games this season, but only at mid-season or later.

2011-12
w/out
8 wins 5 losses
win percentage 62%

with
31 wins 22 losses
win percentage 58%

2012-13
w/out
21 wins 17 losses
win percentage 55%

with
20 wins 23 losses
win percentage 46%

2013-14
w/out
19 wins 33 loses
win percentage 36%

with
6 wins 24 losses
win percentage 20%

2014-15
w/out
1 win 0 losses
win percentage 100%

with
2 wins 3 losses
win percentage 40%

Add to this the fact that Rondo was the 32nd ranked point guard in PER last season and is the 26th ranked point guard in PER this season, and it's a case closed

Also add that Rondo was INJURED most of last season, and is not healthy yet this season (See screw removal this weekend).

That's nonsense. I've had that pin removal done a few times and there is nothing to it. You get some local anesthesia, a small incision, pin is removed with what looks like pliers, you get a couple of stitches, and you're done. There is very little swelling and you get the stitches removed a week later.

And I also gather that you're a future HOF PG and athlete?

Uh, what? So that gives him a slower recovery time?

No, it means that you somehow know how the injury is affecting him, based off of your own experiences.

No, it actually means that I'm fairly certain it's a non-issue based on my own experiences with a similar injury. Conversely, it means that you somehow know the injury is affecting him, based on no experience of the injury. I assure you that if you have, you wouldn't have made that initial post.

[GreenFaith1819]

While I think this thread was a little troll-y at first I do think after watching so many games where Rondo doesn't play that, surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference. I don't think we look considerably better or worse, which is strange because I feel like if your team is missing its best player it was be extremely noticeable. Can we really give anything over $15 million to a player with this little visible impact?

Ask yourself this, then.

Let him walk or trade Rondo.

What viable avenues do you see for our Celtics then? Who do you propose we bring in after Rondo is gone? How soon do you see this team competing for a playoff spot, much less Banners, after Rondo walks or is traded (as you and others here are implying).

A PG set up of Marcus Smart and a frontline of Towns/Okafor will not get us to the playoffs for a few years.

But it will be very entertaining, at least.

[wdleehi]

Here is the better question, if the "system" doesn't fit the best talent on the team, why isn't the system being adjusted to fit the talent? 

Because the talent that supposedly fits the system isn't good enough.


The best coaches are the ones that have flexibility in what they run.








See how easy it is to find a way to shift blame for a low talent team to anyone.

[GreenFaith1819]

We basically have three years of proof that the team wins more when Rondo sits. Check the win loss records.  We lose his playmaking ability, but having competent scorers out there is a powerful thing.


We were dreadful last year in games rondo played. I think we won 3 out of 33 games or something.

The year prior we were under 500 until rondo got hurt and the team rallied and made the playoffs.

Rondo is a terrific player and can be big in the right system, but his contributions are a bit overrated.

i was perhaps the first poster to broach this topic consistently here and the numbers you cite need deeper analysis. yes, in the celtics w/l record over the past 2 seasons + 6 games the celtics win more without rondo than with him. but, not dramatically so. last year is hard to count (or needs to be counted very carefully) given his recovery from injury. this year, he did not make training camp and it is, after all, 6 games.

the way i put the conundrum was to ask WHY the celtics w/l record does not reflect what rondo is supposed to bring to this team, an improved offense and defense and thus more wins. any possible answer can NOT be provided after 6 games this season, but only at mid-season or later.

2011-12
w/out
8 wins 5 losses
win percentage 62%

with
31 wins 22 losses
win percentage 58%

2012-13
w/out
21 wins 17 losses
win percentage 55%

with
20 wins 23 losses
win percentage 46%

2013-14
w/out
19 wins 33 loses
win percentage 36%

with
6 wins 24 losses
win percentage 20%

2014-15
w/out
1 win 0 losses
win percentage 100%

with
2 wins 3 losses
win percentage 40%

Add to this the fact that Rondo was the 32nd ranked point guard in PER last season and is the 26th ranked point guard in PER this season, and it's a case closed

Also add that Rondo was INJURED most of last season, and is not healthy yet this season (See screw removal this weekend).

That's nonsense. I've had that pin removal done a few times and there is nothing to it. You get some local anesthesia, a small incision, pin is removed with what looks like pliers, you get a couple of stitches, and you're done. There is very little swelling and you get the stitches removed a week later.

And I also gather that you're a future HOF PG and athlete?

Uh, what? So that gives him a slower recovery time?

No, it means that you somehow know how the injury is affecting him, based off of your own experiences.

No, it actually means that I'm fairly certain it's a non-issue based on my own experiences with a similar injury. Conversely, it means that you somehow know the injury is affecting him, based on no experience of the injury. I assure you that if you have, you wouldn't have made that initial post.

Well, being that it was YOU who made the 1st assumption - I had to beg the question.

[Eddie20]

While I think this thread was a little troll-y at first I do think after watching so many games where Rondo doesn't play that, surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference. I don't think we look considerably better or worse, which is strange because I feel like if your team is missing its best player it was be extremely noticeable. Can we really give anything over $15 million to a player with this little visible impact?

Ask yourself this, then.

Let him walk or trade Rondo.

What viable avenues do you see for our Celtics then? Who do you propose we bring in after Rondo is gone? How soon do you see this team competing for a playoff spot, much less Banners, after Rondo walks or is traded (as you and others here are implying).

A PG set up of Marcus Smart and a frontline of Towns/Okafor will not get us to the playoffs for a few years.

But it will be very entertaining, at least.

Rondo is turning 29 in a couple of months and we've already seen how he's played (last season) when his explosiveness/athleticism is lacking. Do you think that by the time we're able to contend his game and contract will have positive or negative value?

[Eddie20]

We basically have three years of proof that the team wins more when Rondo sits. Check the win loss records.  We lose his playmaking ability, but having competent scorers out there is a powerful thing.


We were dreadful last year in games rondo played. I think we won 3 out of 33 games or something.

The year prior we were under 500 until rondo got hurt and the team rallied and made the playoffs.

Rondo is a terrific player and can be big in the right system, but his contributions are a bit overrated.

i was perhaps the first poster to broach this topic consistently here and the numbers you cite need deeper analysis. yes, in the celtics w/l record over the past 2 seasons + 6 games the celtics win more without rondo than with him. but, not dramatically so. last year is hard to count (or needs to be counted very carefully) given his recovery from injury. this year, he did not make training camp and it is, after all, 6 games.

the way i put the conundrum was to ask WHY the celtics w/l record does not reflect what rondo is supposed to bring to this team, an improved offense and defense and thus more wins. any possible answer can NOT be provided after 6 games this season, but only at mid-season or later.

2011-12
w/out
8 wins 5 losses
win percentage 62%

with
31 wins 22 losses
win percentage 58%

2012-13
w/out
21 wins 17 losses
win percentage 55%

with
20 wins 23 losses
win percentage 46%

2013-14
w/out
19 wins 33 loses
win percentage 36%

with
6 wins 24 losses
win percentage 20%

2014-15
w/out
1 win 0 losses
win percentage 100%

with
2 wins 3 losses
win percentage 40%

Add to this the fact that Rondo was the 32nd ranked point guard in PER last season and is the 26th ranked point guard in PER this season, and it's a case closed

Also add that Rondo was INJURED most of last season, and is not healthy yet this season (See screw removal this weekend).

That's nonsense. I've had that pin removal done a few times and there is nothing to it. You get some local anesthesia, a small incision, pin is removed with what looks like pliers, you get a couple of stitches, and you're done. There is very little swelling and you get the stitches removed a week later.

And I also gather that you're a future HOF PG and athlete?

Uh, what? So that gives him a slower recovery time?

No, it means that you somehow know how the injury is affecting him, based off of your own experiences.

No, it actually means that I'm fairly certain it's a non-issue based on my own experiences with a similar injury. Conversely, it means that you somehow know the injury is affecting him, based on no experience of the injury. I assure you that if you have, you wouldn't have made that initial post.

Well, being that it was YOU who made the 1st assumption - I had to beg the question.

Really? I merely posted our record with and without over the last several seasons and you followed up with...

not healthy yet this season (See screw removal this weekend).

[GreenFaith1819]

While I think this thread was a little troll-y at first I do think after watching so many games where Rondo doesn't play that, surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference. I don't think we look considerably better or worse, which is strange because I feel like if your team is missing its best player it was be extremely noticeable. Can we really give anything over $15 million to a player with this little visible impact?

Ask yourself this, then.

Let him walk or trade Rondo.

What viable avenues do you see for our Celtics then? Who do you propose we bring in after Rondo is gone? How soon do you see this team competing for a playoff spot, much less Banners, after Rondo walks or is traded (as you and others here are implying).

A PG set up of Marcus Smart and a frontline of Towns/Okafor will not get us to the playoffs for a few years.

But it will be very entertaining, at least.

Rondo is turning 29 in a couple of months and we've already seen how he's played (last season) when his explosiveness/athleticism is lacking. Do you think that by the time we're able to contend his game and contract will have positive or negative value?

And you are forgetting that he was injured last year.

KG was 31 when he got here and was well beyond his athletic/youthful years.

Marc Gasol is the choice of many posters on here (vs KLove) of players to bring here to BOS and he can barely jump over a phone book.

What makes you think that Rondo will be less effective at this stage of his career? Even a few years from now?

His game is based on intelligence, like most future HOF PGs.