Author Topic: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic  (Read 38760 times)

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Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #120 on: June 01, 2014, 01:45:38 PM »

Offline BballTim

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There's nothing you can do against the hype. Marketing always wins.

Can't wait to hear the excuses when we lose in the second round, though. "It wasn't Love's fault, he put up 20 and 10"..."It wasn't Rondo's fault, he had a pimple on his shooting hand"..."If we had a better backup PG than Pressey, we could've swept the Heat easily"...you know the drill.

  The part that you're not getting from this is "lose in the second round". That's not a bad place to be when your entire core is in it's 20s.

  And as tiresome as the excuses are, they aren't any worse than all the "something went wrong and I don't know what so it must be Rondo's fault" posts that are so plentiful here. I guess Love has that to look forward to.

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #121 on: June 01, 2014, 01:48:17 PM »

Offline playdream

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So would you rather not get Love? What other alternative is out there for our Celtics?

I'd rather go down swinging (With KLove, perhaps Asik) then to not even get into the fight AT ALL....

Yeah, I'd rather not get Love. I think he's at best the 10th best big man in the game, probably closer to 15th, but will get paid like one of the best. I think his warts are not small, I think they will force our hands in more ways than people might anticipate. I also think he's soft as tissue paper.
I think Rondo is at best the 10th best PG in the league, too. I think he will start to deteriorate in 3 years max. He'll also get paid like a superstar, because triple doubles have become the measure of excellence in this whole fantasy basketball culture.

None of the big dogs will fear this team. They can't wait to play us. The Houston Rockets of this season are a better team than the Celtics post-trade, and they didn't make it out of the second round, either.

The alternative is to take our time and rebuild the right way, like most other teams in the league are forced to do. Get some talented young players, build them up for 2-3 years, than add one or two players in FA, or trade our remaining picks from Brooklyn for a legit top player.

I think you guys have hype fever, and I fear we'll become the Boston Knicks by shooting for the fantasy option. I fear the owners and the FO desperately want to prove how much smarter they are than anybody else, how the Boston Celtics can come back in one year, and how we're above rebuilding through the draft. I'm convinced it will come back and bite us in the rear end.
I think we'll be stuck in NBA no-mans-land, with a much smaller chance to improve than we have now.

Yeah, considering our assets, I can't believe the FO is willing to throw away a unique chance at building the right way for a quick fix. No, wait...I can believe it, it just makes me incredibly sad. I think most guys around here who want to see Love in green do it for all kinds of reasons, but certainly not to win a championship. Maybe they like his superficial numbers, maybe it'll give them confidence when they talk basketball at the water cooler, maybe they like a white guy with big stats (and I don't think that's racist, considering the NBA landscape), maybe they want to wear a Celtics jersey with the name "Love" on the back, or maybe they just overrate Love and genuinely believe he'll lead us to the promised land.

I rather live to fight another day. I think going all in at this point in time is rebuild suicide. I think if we can win 1 championship in 10 years, that's a good ratio. If this trade happens, I truly believe Karma exists and is a female dog. I'm at a point where I wish we had never traded KG and Pierce, as that would save ourselves from this albatross in the making.

...that's what I think.
I am not worried about that, i trust danny is smart enough to not overrated Love like he is KG/LBJ by some people here
We trade for him only at a right price, an extension, No max salary
Otherwise he can go elsewhere and keep losing

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #122 on: June 01, 2014, 01:50:34 PM »

Offline BballTim

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So would you rather not get Love? What other alternative is out there for our Celtics?

I'd rather go down swinging (With KLove, perhaps Asik) then to not even get into the fight AT ALL....

Yeah, I'd rather not get Love. I think he's at best the 10th best big man in the game, probably closer to 15th, but will get paid like one of the best. His warts are not small, they will force our hands in more ways than people might anticipate. I also think he's soft as tissue paper.

I believe Rondo is at best the 10th best PG in the league, too. I think he will start to deteriorate in 3 years max. He'll also get paid like a superstar, because triple doubles have become the measure of excellence in this whole fantasy basketball culture.

None of the big dogs will fear this team. They can't wait to play us. The Houston Rockets of this season are a better team than the Celtics post-trade, and they didn't make it out of the second round, either.

The alternative is to take our time and rebuild the right way, like most other teams in the league are forced to do. Get some talented young players, build them up for 2-3 years, than add one or two players in FA, or trade our remaining picks from Brooklyn for a legit top player.

I believe you guys have hype fever, and I fear we'll become the Boston Knicks by shooting for the fantasy option. I also fear the owners and the FO desperately want to prove how much smarter they are than anybody else, how the Boston Celtics can come back in one year, and how we're above rebuilding through the draft. I'm convinced it will come back and bite us in the rear end.
We'll be stuck in NBA no-mans-land, with a much smaller chance to improve than we have now.

Yeah, considering our assets, I can't believe the FO is willing to throw away a unique chance at building the right way for a quick fix. No, wait...I can believe it, it just makes me incredibly sad. I think most guys around here who want to see Love in green do it for all kinds of reasons, but certainly not to win a championship. Maybe they like his superficial numbers, maybe it'll give them confidence when they talk basketball at the water cooler, maybe they like a white guy with big stats (and I don't think that's racist, considering the NBA landscape), maybe they want to wear a Celtics jersey with the name "Love" on the back, or maybe they just overrate Love and genuinely believe he'll lead us to the promised land.

I rather live to fight another day. I believe goping all in at this point in time is rebuild suicide. If we can win 1 championship in 10 years, that's a good ratio. If this trade happens, I truly believe Karma exists and is a female dog. I'm at a point where I wish we had never traded KG and Pierce, as that would save ourselves from this albatross in the making.

  The thing to remember is that rebuilding "the right way" has an extremely low success rate.

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #123 on: June 01, 2014, 01:57:35 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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People can't have it both ways. I never thought a player like Love would be interested in joining the Celtic's so I was all for tanking. Even though we didn't tank as hard as I would've liked it still puts us into a great position as acquiring a top 10 player in the NBA which I didn't think would be possible.

How about we stop focusing on Love's one fault; for once a top 10 player WANTS to come to the Celtics, I don't get the hate. This is what we've all be waiting for, so what he isn't the best defender? The dude is one of the best bigs in the game.

Love is not a top 10 player in this league.  Yes he is one of the better scorers and rebounders but he is not overall (offense + defense) a top 10 player.

Top overall 10 right now (not in order)

Lebron
Durant
Westbrook
LMA
George
Chris Paul
Griffin
Anthony Davis
March Gasol
John Wall

The next group of players (not in order)
Joakim Noah
Harden
DHoward
Love
Melo
Curry

basically guys who can either score or play good defense but can't do both.

I don't want to give up the farm on a "weapon".  I will give up the farm on a complete player though. Someone like a LMA.  We need to be patient , plus the 2015 FA is coming out right around the corner.

I would take Love over Wall, LMA, Marc Gasol and Curry. I also wouldn't give up the "farm" but I don't consider the 6th pick and either Sully or KO the farm, plus whatever minor assets are needed to make the salaries match.

My main point was that if you are against tanking and for rebuilding "on the fly" or whatever everyone called it, I don't see how you can be against getting Love. I don't see any other disgruntled stars at his age with his level of talent. Yes subsequent moves would have to be made quickly but that is the risk involved with rebuilding quickly instead of through the draft.

There isn't going to be some disgruntled 25 year old 20-10 big man who also plays all NBA defense who also wants to come to Boston. We should be thrilled a player like Love wants to come to a cold weather city instead of forcing his way to LA.

I get your point. But he wants to get paid like he is a franchise calibre player when he is not.  Plus Rondo wanting to get paid, you are not going to have enough money to build a successful team.  You see a team like the spurs. They have guys left and right willing to take less money to help to create a winning environment. It's sacrifice inside and outside of the court.  Love will not make the sacrifice nor does he give it an all out effort on the defensive end.  That's why he is not a winner so far

Even as much as i dislike Melo, he has publicly stated he is willing to take less money to start winning again.  I can respect that.   

Right now fans want to go into this trade blind.  Lets give up assets that could turn to bite us back in the azz, lets not worry about contracts until the time comes (where Love and Rondo will want max or might walk). So basically there is no assurance these guys will be here after this upcoming season and the Celts org might be seriously screwed then.  Why not take the safer approach and see how much KO, Sullinger have come along , see how the draft picks turn out (even if we get to see what they can do for half a year) and then make a trade(s) at the deadline?   Love is not the only decent player that will be available between now and the end of the 2015 FA period.

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #124 on: June 01, 2014, 02:02:54 PM »

Offline MBunge

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Love is not a top 10 player in this league.  Yes he is one of the better scorers and rebounders but he is not overall (offense + defense) a top 10 player.

Top overall 10 right now (not in order)

Lebron
Durant
Westbrook
LMA
George
Chris Paul
Griffin
Anthony Davis
March Gasol
John Wall

The next group of players (not in order)
Joakim Noah
Harden
DHoward
Love
Melo


This is the kind of talent evaluation that keeps teams in the lottery year after year.

1.  Paul George?  Did you watch ANY basketball this year.  George is not, at this point, top 10 and I can't imagine how you can even argue he is.

2.  Davis and Wall could be top 10 in a few years but, again, clearly aren't there now.

3.  In what way is Griffin a substantially better defender than Love?

4.  Noah is nowhere near the level of player that Howard and Melo are.  He's very productive but no one in the league would take him over those two, even after this past season.

Mike


Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #125 on: June 01, 2014, 02:10:04 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Love is not a top 10 player in this league.  Yes he is one of the better scorers and rebounders but he is not overall (offense + defense) a top 10 player.

Top overall 10 right now (not in order)

Lebron
Durant
Westbrook
LMA
George
Chris Paul
Griffin
Anthony Davis
March Gasol
John Wall

The next group of players (not in order)
Joakim Noah
Harden
DHoward
Love
Melo


This is the kind of talent evaluation that keeps teams in the lottery year after year.

1.  Paul George?  Did you watch ANY basketball this year.  George is not, at this point, top 10 and I can't imagine how you can even argue he is.

2.  Davis and Wall could be top 10 in a few years but, again, clearly aren't there now.

3.  In what way is Griffin a substantially better defender than Love?

4.  Noah is nowhere near the level of player that Howard and Melo are.  He's very productive but no one in the league would take him over those two, even after this past season.

Mike

Like i stated a top 10 player is a all around player.  Love might be a 9 on offense but he is like a 5 on defense. George a 8 on offense but also a 8 or 9 on defense. Every top 10 player i listed is 8/8 on both ends if not higher. 

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #126 on: June 01, 2014, 02:10:33 PM »

Offline Casperian

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There's nothing you can do against the hype. Marketing always wins.

Can't wait to hear the excuses when we lose in the second round, though. "It wasn't Love's fault, he put up 20 and 10"..."It wasn't Rondo's fault, he had a pimple on his shooting hand"..."If we had a better backup PG than Pressey, we could've swept the Heat easily"...you know the drill.

I don't think anyone is implying the Celtics will win the Championship next year by trading for Love. Just that it's a big step in the right direction.

Do you really believe that? If Kevin Love, who wants to leave the Wolves because they're not winning, comes to Boston, the FO will soon be forced to "give him some help". You can bet we'll go for all kinds of sub-par vets to "improve our chances". You think Kevin Love will be patient and wait until we can make Brooklyn's 2018 draft pick?

If you trade for Love, you're in it to win it.

The thing to remember is that rebuilding "the right way" has an extremely low success rate.

I'd say trading for guys with big stats just because you can has an even lower success rate. Just ask the Knicks, Nets or last year's Lakers. Considering how often that happens compared to teams who actually build "the right way" and don't go all-in as soon as they can smell the playoffs, I don't think there's much of a difference in "succes rate".
In the summer of 2017, I predicted this team would not win a championship for the next 10 years.

3 down, 7 to go.

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #127 on: June 01, 2014, 02:16:12 PM »

Offline MBunge

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I get your point. But he wants to get paid like he is a franchise calibre player when he is not.  Plus Rondo wanting to get paid, you are not going to have enough money to build a successful team.  You see a team like the spurs. They have guys left and right willing to take less money to help to create a winning environment. It's sacrifice inside and outside of the court.  Love will not make the sacrifice nor does he give it an all out effort on the defensive end.  That's why he is not a winner so far

Even as much as i dislike Melo, he has publicly stated he is willing to take less money to start winning again.  I can respect that.   

Right now fans want to go into this trade blind.  Lets give up assets that could turn to bite us back in the azz, lets not worry about contracts until the time comes (where Love and Rondo will want max or might walk). So basically there is no assurance these guys will be here after this upcoming season and the Celts org might be seriously screwed then.  Why not take the safer approach and see how much KO, Sullinger have come along , see how the draft picks turn out (even if we get to see what they can do for half a year) and then make a trade(s) at the deadline?   Love is not the only decent player that will be available between now and the end of the 2015 FA period.

Players take less with the Spurs because the Spurs win.  No one is EVER taking less money to play for a team that won 25 games the season before.  Also, neither LeBron not Wade nor Melo nor Bosh were willing to give up money when they were Love's age.  And you cannot find a better example of "fantasy GM dementia" than refusing to get a 20-10 guy who is 25 years old because it might stop you from doing some unknown thing at some undetermined point in the future.

Mike

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #128 on: June 01, 2014, 02:33:50 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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I get your point. But he wants to get paid like he is a franchise calibre player when he is not.  Plus Rondo wanting to get paid, you are not going to have enough money to build a successful team.  You see a team like the spurs. They have guys left and right willing to take less money to help to create a winning environment. It's sacrifice inside and outside of the court.  Love will not make the sacrifice nor does he give it an all out effort on the defensive end.  That's why he is not a winner so far

Even as much as i dislike Melo, he has publicly stated he is willing to take less money to start winning again.  I can respect that.   

Right now fans want to go into this trade blind.  Lets give up assets that could turn to bite us back in the azz, lets not worry about contracts until the time comes (where Love and Rondo will want max or might walk). So basically there is no assurance these guys will be here after this upcoming season and the Celts org might be seriously screwed then.  Why not take the safer approach and see how much KO, Sullinger have come along , see how the draft picks turn out (even if we get to see what they can do for half a year) and then make a trade(s) at the deadline?   Love is not the only decent player that will be available between now and the end of the 2015 FA period.

Players take less with the Spurs because the Spurs win.  No one is EVER taking less money to play for a team that won 25 games the season before.  Also, neither LeBron not Wade nor Melo nor Bosh were willing to give up money when they were Love's age.  And you cannot find a better example of "fantasy GM dementia" than refusing to get a 20-10 guy who is 25 years old because it might stop you from doing some unknown thing at some undetermined point in the future.

Mike

Then why isn't every team lined up for Love? why doesn't the cavs give them the 1st. Why is GSW reluctant to give up Klay Thompson or the Wizards reluctant to give up Beal?

you don't give up the future especially picks from a strong draft (would be top 3 picks in any other draft) for a rental (considered for now) and a guy who has not made the playoffs yet (his fault or not).

If Love can't help to make the playoffs regardless of what happens (Green is inconsistent, Rondo is not quite the same), he is going to get killed by the media and fans.  He is definitely not going to stay and try a new start somewhere else. He is going to be fine, get paid his money etc. But we will be screwed. 

For me if we had a Rondo and Paul Pierce, healthy and capable then yeah , get Love.  At worse you are making the playoffs and there is a decent chance you get past the 1st round.  But having just Rondo (post injury) and Love doesn't have as much as impact people think.  Next go grab asik, who is a defensive specialist (not elite), give up another 1st for another guy that could walk after this season.   Bottom line for me is,  we need to be patient.  Or else we can become like the Lakers/dhoward and really become screwed.  You need to have a base/foundation in place first, then trade the pieces to propel your team into another level. The 2007 team design is a rare situation that succeeded (plus guys like Al Jefferson already showed us what he can do in three seasons and the 5th pick was considered to be nothing amazin).  What the cHeaters did only works because they got two of the best basketball players teaming up. 

The Celtics do this trade, we end up like the Rockets. Promising to go somewhere but eventually going nowhere because you got a few B class talent that get paid like they are A class and the team can't afford to obtain other help
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 02:41:06 PM by triboy16f »

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #129 on: June 01, 2014, 02:36:02 PM »

Offline BballTim

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There's nothing you can do against the hype. Marketing always wins.

Can't wait to hear the excuses when we lose in the second round, though. "It wasn't Love's fault, he put up 20 and 10"..."It wasn't Rondo's fault, he had a pimple on his shooting hand"..."If we had a better backup PG than Pressey, we could've swept the Heat easily"...you know the drill.

I don't think anyone is implying the Celtics will win the Championship next year by trading for Love. Just that it's a big step in the right direction.

Do you really believe that? If Kevin Love, who wants to leave the Wolves because they're not winning, comes to Boston, the FO will soon be forced to "give him some help". You can bet we'll go for all kinds of sub-par vets to "improve our chances". You think Kevin Love will be patient and wait until we can make Brooklyn's 2018 draft pick?

If you trade for Love, you're in it to win it.

  I'd bet Danny would use some of our remaining remaining assets to try and bring in something better than sub-par vets.

The thing to remember is that rebuilding "the right way" has an extremely low success rate.

I'd say trading for guys with big stats just because you can has an even lower success rate. Just ask the Knicks, Nets or last year's Lakers. Considering how often that happens compared to teams who actually build "the right way" and don't go all-in as soon as they can smell the playoffs, I don't think there's much of a difference in "succes rate".

  You could also ask the 2008 Celts or the 2009-2010 Lakers or maybe the 2006 Heat. There's no way it doesn't have a significantly higher success rate than building through the draft.


Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #130 on: June 01, 2014, 02:43:06 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I get your point. But he wants to get paid like he is a franchise calibre player when he is not.  Plus Rondo wanting to get paid, you are not going to have enough money to build a successful team.  You see a team like the spurs. They have guys left and right willing to take less money to help to create a winning environment. It's sacrifice inside and outside of the court.  Love will not make the sacrifice nor does he give it an all out effort on the defensive end.  That's why he is not a winner so far

Even as much as i dislike Melo, he has publicly stated he is willing to take less money to start winning again.  I can respect that.   

Right now fans want to go into this trade blind.  Lets give up assets that could turn to bite us back in the azz, lets not worry about contracts until the time comes (where Love and Rondo will want max or might walk). So basically there is no assurance these guys will be here after this upcoming season and the Celts org might be seriously screwed then.  Why not take the safer approach and see how much KO, Sullinger have come along , see how the draft picks turn out (even if we get to see what they can do for half a year) and then make a trade(s) at the deadline?   Love is not the only decent player that will be available between now and the end of the 2015 FA period.

Players take less with the Spurs because the Spurs win.  No one is EVER taking less money to play for a team that won 25 games the season before.  Also, neither LeBron not Wade nor Melo nor Bosh were willing to give up money when they were Love's age.  And you cannot find a better example of "fantasy GM dementia" than refusing to get a 20-10 guy who is 25 years old because it might stop you from doing some unknown thing at some undetermined point in the future.

Mike

Then why isn't every team lined up for Love? why doesn't the cavs give them the 1st. Why is GSW reluctant to give up Klay Thompson or the Wizards reluctant to give up Beal?

you don't give up the future especially picks from a strong draft (would be top 3 picks in any other draft) for a rental (considered for now) and a guy who has not made the playoffs yet (his fault or not).


  FWIW plenty of people didn't want to trade for KG because of his lack of postseason success.

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #131 on: June 01, 2014, 02:54:59 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I love all this talk of top three in this or that draft.  The NBA draft is as weak as it ever was folks.  That is why they have a DL now because these kids do not know how to play.  There are some real stars each year and about 50 guys who are sent to the DL or won't make it for more than five years in the league.


Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #132 on: June 01, 2014, 04:03:10 PM »

Offline tstorey_97

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Gentlemen, a top NBA big is available through trade. He has indicated he is positive about playing in Boston. His team is considering taking our third year power forward with back issues and plenty of other warts, the 6th pick overall in a draft with 4 players in it and some other future mid round picks.

I understand that reefer is legal in Colorado now and that you might all be smoking too much of it but, honestly, you would prefer Noah Vonleh or Aaron Gordon and two mid rounders in the next two years over Kevin Love? Heavens! This is not a Reggae board this is a NBA fan board. Ainge will be getting this guy for n-o-t-h-i-n-g. A bag of balls. Two pairs of Air Jordans (used) and a free group tour of the Boston sports museum with Dave Cowens. Nothing, nada, zip....on a good NBA team Sully is a 6th man, put the bong down...step away from the bong...

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #133 on: June 01, 2014, 04:08:41 PM »

Offline j804

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Gentlemen, a top NBA big is available through trade. He has indicated he is positive about playing in Boston. His team is considering taking our third year power forward with back issues and plenty of other warts, the 6th pick overall in a draft with 4 players in it and some other future mid round picks.

I understand that reefer is legal in Colorado now and that you might all be smoking too much of it but, honestly, you would prefer Noah Vonleh or Aaron Gordon and two mid rounders in the next two years over Kevin Love? Heavens! This is not a Reggae board this is a NBA fan board. Ainge will be getting this guy for n-o-t-h-i-n-g. A bag of balls. Two pairs of Air Jordans (used) and a free group tour of the Boston sports museum with Dave Cowens. Nothing, nada, zip....on a good NBA team Sully is a 6th man, put the bong down...step away from the bong...
Minnesota wants Sullinger? Link?

That is news to me
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 04:16:11 PM by j804 »
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Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #134 on: June 01, 2014, 04:09:42 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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I love all this talk of top three in this or that draft.  The NBA draft is as weak as it ever was folks.  That is why they have a DL now because these kids do not know how to play.  There are some real stars each year and about 50 guys who are sent to the DL or won't make it for more than five years in the league.

I agree. The 2012 draft was supposed to be loaded too and a few of those lottery picks are already out of the league.