Author Topic: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic  (Read 38820 times)

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Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #105 on: June 01, 2014, 12:37:39 PM »

Offline Smokeeye123

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Olynyk will never be nearly as good as Love. Dr. Seuss had less of a wild imagination than some of the people in this thread.

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #106 on: June 01, 2014, 12:38:07 PM »

Offline Casperian

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There's nothing you can do against the hype. Marketing always wins.

Can't wait to hear the excuses when we lose in the second round, though. "It wasn't Love's fault, he put up 20 and 10"..."It wasn't Rondo's fault, he had a pimple on his shooting hand"..."If we had a better backup PG than Pressey, we could've swept the Heat easily"...you know the drill.
In the summer of 2017, I predicted this team would not win a championship for the next 10 years.

3 down, 7 to go.

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #107 on: June 01, 2014, 12:41:55 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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There's nothing you can do against the hype. Marketing always wins.

Can't wait to hear the excuses when we lose in the second round, though. "It wasn't Love's fault, he put up 20 and 10"..."It wasn't Rondo's fault, he had a pimple on his shooting hand"..."If we had a better backup PG than Pressey, we could've swept the Heat easily"...you know the drill.

lol, i know.   

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #108 on: June 01, 2014, 12:43:55 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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There's nothing you can do against the hype. Marketing always wins.

Can't wait to hear the excuses when we lose in the second round, though. "It wasn't Love's fault, he put up 20 and 10"..."It wasn't Rondo's fault, he had a pimple on his shooting hand"..."If we had a better backup PG than Pressey, we could've swept the Heat easily"...you know the drill.

So would you rather not get Love? What other alternative is out there for our Celtics?

I'd rather go down swinging (With KLove, perhaps Asik) than to not even get into the fight AT ALL...

Have we all forgotten how good Rajon Rondo is in post-season? Can we imagine Playoff Rondo and a YOUNG KLove? A HUNGRY KLove?

He is Hungry Like The Wolf, after being in Minny those years.... 8)

KLove is NOT the entire puzzle...he is definitely the BIGGEST piece of the puzzle....but let's not pass on him...

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #109 on: June 01, 2014, 12:51:22 PM »

Offline Jailan34

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People can't have it both ways. I never thought a player like Love would be interested in joining the Celtic's so I was all for tanking. Even though we didn't tank as hard as I would've liked it still puts us into a great position as acquiring a top 10 player in the NBA which I didn't think would be possible.

How about we stop focusing on Love's one fault; for once a top 10 player WANTS to come to the Celtics, I don't get the hate. This is what we've all be waiting for, so what he isn't the best defender? The dude is one of the best bigs in the game.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #110 on: June 01, 2014, 01:06:39 PM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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Aldridge wont be available, also, here's why we should prefer Love over him.

a.) Try to imagine what would happen if Aldridge and Love switch teams. Love will have Lillard as his 2nd scorer, Matthews, Batum and Robin Lopez helping him defensively. Do you think they wont make the Playoffs?

Yes, I do.  I think they would be a first round exit most likely, or otherwise possibly not make it at all.


b.) I'm still working my advanced metrics knowledge, but I think basic ESPN stats can tell a story.

Let's head to head the stats from last season, Love - Aldridge.

The only thing LMA was better at from those stats are blocks, by half a point, and TO's. Love scores more but shoots less, grabs a couple more rebounds, better 3pt shooter, better assists getter (wont say better passer, im not sure about that, but he gets assists)


That's because you're looking at exactly that - 'basic' stats.  In those basic stats Love may look like a better scorer, but look at the statistical breakdown offensively of both players over their careers...

Love:
Career FG Percentage (overall): 45.1%
Career FG Percentage (2PT shots): 47.9%
Career FG Percentage (3PT shots): 36.2%
Career FG Percentage (0-3 feet): 59.6%
Career FG Percentage (3-10 feet): 39.4%
Career FG Percentage (10-16 feet): 32.8%
Career FG Percentage (16 feet to 3 point): 38.9%
Career FT Percentage: 81.5%

Aldridge:
Career FG Percentage (overall): 48.8%
Career FG Percentage (2PT shots): 49.1%
Career FG Percentage (3PT shots): 20.7%
Career FG Percentage (0-3 feet): 69.4%
Career FG Percentage (3-10 feet): 43.8%
Career FG Percentage (10-16 feet): 41.2%
Career FG Percentage (16 feet to 3 point): 42.1%
Career FT Percentage: 78.8%

Lemarcus Aldridge is a significantly better scorer from everywhere on the court EXCEPT from three and from the free throw line.  Love may score more points, but Aldridge is a more dangerous scorer from almost anywhere on the court.  Love basically scroes more points because he attempts more free throws (and hits them at a slightly higher rate) and because he takes more three point FG's (which amount to more points than a two point FG).

I would argue that when the game is on the line and you need a big basket, and you need to take whatever shot you can get, you'd be more confident in LMA hitting that shot than you would with Love because Aldridge is just a superior shooting from anywhere inside the three point line.  He's got exceptonal finishing ability around the basket, he's got an elite jump shot from midrange, deadly turnaround jumpshot from the post (which is all but unguardable) and if you do foul him he's still a very good foul shooter.  The only time Love is going to be a better option is if he's catching it outside the three point line, basically. Keep him off the perimieter and you have a pretty decent shot of shutting him down and winning the game.  Shutting Aldridge down is much more difficult, because he can score in so many ways. 

On top of that there is the issue of defense.  Imagine you are in a big playoff game, series is on the line, game is tied.  You are the Blazers.  Love has the ball, and you desperately need a shop.  Aldridge is on Love.  You have a pretty good chance of Aldridge getting a stop, and coming back on offense for a chance to win the game.

Now the tables turn.  Aldridge has the ball, the other team is on defense, Love is on Aldridge.  What is the chance of Aldridge not scoring on Love?  Not looking good. Love's team will most likely HAVE to send a double team, leaving another player wide open elsewhere on the court. 

See Love might be a better three point shooter, but Aldridge can still defend Love's three.  Can Love defend Aldridge?

This is why I don't see Love as a #1 option on a team.  He's nowhere near as effective a scorer as people seem to think when he's inside the three point line.  In fact over his career there is not a single position on the floor (outside of 3 feet) where Love has shot better than 40%.  If he's your go-to guy when the game is on the line, you're probably in trouble.  That's probably a big reason why the Wolves have struggled to get any real team success with Love as their star player.  However if he is your #2 guy, then that I think is deadly.  If you have that #1 guy who can draw attention and demand double teams then opposing teams run the risk of losing track of Love, at which time he can really destroy you. 

I think Love is the equivalent of Ray Allen when he was at Boston in 08.  Ray was a big time player, could have some huge games, but without Pierce and KG I'm not so sure he ever would have been able to lead Boston as the #1 guy.  Put hiim on a team with a scorer like Pierce however, then Ray (as a #2 or #3 guys) becomes absolutely deadly.

I think Love is, at the end of the day, better as a complementary star - much like the role Chris Bosh has in Miami.  Bosh put up massive numbers in Toronto, but that team never really got anywhere far.  As a complementary player alongside a Lebron/Wade however, Bosh is deadly.  Same thing with Love I believe.


c) Aldridge is also closing in on 30, while Kevin Love is 25. Love has room to improve and you'll have a longer window, can't say that with LMA.

The hate with Love because of his defensive deficiencies, I get. But it can be solved, he can be masked. To deny that Love is not a max player though, that's what I think is ridiculous.

I think Love's status as a Max player is kinda questionable. 

I don't think it's a question that he'd GET a max contract, I just think it's questionable whether I would be willing to actually PAY him a max contract.  He's the type of guy who I would never pay that money to, but you know for certain there's somebody out there who would.  Kinda like Josh Smith - everybody knew SOMEONE would offer him a Max contact, which they did.  In his case though it wasn't so bad, because Smith's max contract wasn't team-crippling high.  Around 13M or so.  You can work with that.  Love's contract renewal would be at least $18M, and that is team-crippling high.  Unless you think he is a guy who can be your #1 and lead you to a title (or you know absolutely for certain that you can get a guy to pair with him who can), I don't think he's worth it.

For Chicago I think he's worth it.  Derek Rose is your #1 scorer, Joakim Noah is your elite post protector. Throw Kevin Love in to that mix and you have an instant contender.

For Boston, not sure he's such a good fit.

1.) Disagree, that Minny lineup won't be enough help for Aldridge to carry on his own. There is no Brandon Roy, good Gerald Wallace, Wesley Matthews or Damian Lillard caliber type of player to help him there.

2.) Fair point on stats. Taken


3.) You said that Love gets to the line more, isn't that a testament on how good he is drawing fouls?

4.) Love wont defend Aldridge in the Playoffs. That's why you acquire Asik or some sort of another defensive big man who can switch to LMA. Just because they're the PF matchup doesnt mean they have to face each other man to man. Tactics, friend. You can use tactics, as long as you have a man who can execute. Love can't do this, unfortunately, so as Pekovic which is why Minny cant win. You get Love with a defensive big and hide him to a better defensive matchup, we're going to do fine.

5.) Say complimentary star or main star all you want, a 25 year old player who puts 26/12/4 is a superstar numbers that if you have the chance to acquire, you go for. And...

6.) He's SO WORTH the max contract. Can't deny that production and star power. Find other guys in the NBA who does that that is AVAILABLE on the trade market? He drops 26 a game shooting 45%, he can be your number 1 guy. The key is giving him a solid number 2, and surround him with a team who's capable of hiding his defensive deficiencies.

Outside of basketball wise, he will bring behinds to the TD Garden seats and he's marketable, so if we're talking straight financial investment, he's good.

Rondo, Green, Love and Asik is a PLAYOFF team, possibly will even contend for a spot in the West. There's enough talent there. Jeff Green can be the 2nd go to guy, which he probably fits the mold. Rondo and Green can play good defense in the perimeter and Love and Asik will control the boards. Asik protects the paint. And if Rondo is back to Rondo form, Lord...

And you get the usual 20+ points, 10+ rebounds, 4 assists from Kevin Love, that's a really good team.

(now that I think about it, with Courtney Lee on that team, that's going to be a tough out for any team)
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PG: Jrue Holiday / Isaiah Thomas / Larry Hughes
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PF: LaMarcus Aldridge / Shareef Abdur-Raheem / Ben Simmons
C: Jermaine O'neal / Ben Wallace

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #111 on: June 01, 2014, 01:14:54 PM »

Offline Smokeeye123

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There's nothing you can do against the hype. Marketing always wins.

Can't wait to hear the excuses when we lose in the second round, though. "It wasn't Love's fault, he put up 20 and 10"..."It wasn't Rondo's fault, he had a pimple on his shooting hand"..."If we had a better backup PG than Pressey, we could've swept the Heat easily"...you know the drill.

I don't think anyone is implying the Celtics will win the Championship next year by trading for Love. Just that it's a big step in the right direction.

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #112 on: June 01, 2014, 01:15:55 PM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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Quote
BAh I'm sure your a Gordon fan, drafting him over trading for Love gets you your defense + years more of lottery picks

You are aware that Love has never made the playoffs and here are the position of draft picks of Minny since his tenure there.

2013 drafted 9th (Trey Burke)
2012 Would have drafted 10th traded (Austin Rivers)
2011  2nd Derrick Williams
2010  4th Wesley Johnson  , 30th Lazar Hayward
2009 6th Johnny Flynn  and 5th via trade Ricky Rubio.
2008 Kevin Love acquired

Gee, during Love's 6th six years they have been in the lottery a lot.  Looks like Love gets you ton of lottery picks as well.

I am not endoring Gordon over Love.   I think Love is and will be the better of the two.   But sometimes people here say things that are down right silly.

2007 - Could have gotten Stephen Curry and DeMar Derozan on that draft.
200... nope. I'd stop there.

I could say they could have also gotten DeMarcus Cousins over Wesley Johnson in the next year's draft, but I wont. Love, DeRozan and Curry together could make a better push in the Playoffs than Rubio and Pekovic. Minny is incompentent during Kevin's 6 years. They could have given him a good team but they didnt.
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SG: Paul George / Aaron McKie / Bradley Beal
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C: Jermaine O'neal / Ben Wallace

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #113 on: June 01, 2014, 01:21:53 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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People can't have it both ways. I never thought a player like Love would be interested in joining the Celtic's so I was all for tanking. Even though we didn't tank as hard as I would've liked it still puts us into a great position as acquiring a top 10 player in the NBA which I didn't think would be possible.

How about we stop focusing on Love's one fault; for once a top 10 player WANTS to come to the Celtics, I don't get the hate. This is what we've all be waiting for, so what he isn't the best defender? The dude is one of the best bigs in the game.

Love is not a top 10 player in this league.  Yes he is one of the better scorers and rebounders but he is not overall (offense + defense) a top 10 player.

Top overall 10 right now (not in order)

Lebron
Durant
Westbrook
LMA
George
Chris Paul
Griffin
Anthony Davis
March Gasol
John Wall

The next group of players (not in order)
Joakim Noah
Harden
DHoward
Love
Melo
Curry

basically guys who can either score or play good defense but can't do both.

I don't want to give up the farm on a "weapon".  I will give up the farm on a complete player though. Someone like a LMA.  We need to be patient , plus the 2015 FA is coming out right around the corner.

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #114 on: June 01, 2014, 01:32:21 PM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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you're certainly entitled to your thoughts of who is top 10 in the league as i'm sure everybody would have a different opinion on the subject.

myself, I wouldn't include westbrook in the top 10. I think he showed that against the spurs last night. and marc gasol is a very nice player but I wouldn't have him there either.

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #115 on: June 01, 2014, 01:33:52 PM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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I don't want to give up the farm on a "weapon".  I will give up the farm on a complete player though. Someone like a LMA.  We need to be patient , plus the 2015 FA is coming out right around the corner.

and I totally agree with this. I want Love but only for the right price.

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #116 on: June 01, 2014, 01:34:30 PM »

Offline Casperian

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So would you rather not get Love? What other alternative is out there for our Celtics?

I'd rather go down swinging (With KLove, perhaps Asik) then to not even get into the fight AT ALL....

Yeah, I'd rather not get Love. I think he's at best the 10th best big man in the game, probably closer to 15th, but will get paid like one of the best. His warts are not small, they will force our hands in more ways than people might anticipate. I also think he's soft as tissue paper.

I believe Rondo is at best the 10th best PG in the league, too. I think he will start to deteriorate in 3 years max. He'll also get paid like a superstar, because triple doubles have become the measure of excellence in this whole fantasy basketball culture.

None of the big dogs will fear this team. They can't wait to play us. The Houston Rockets of this season are a better team than the Celtics post-trade, and they didn't make it out of the second round, either.

The alternative is to take our time and rebuild the right way, like most other teams in the league are forced to do. Get some talented young players, build them up for 2-3 years, than add one or two players in FA, or trade our remaining picks from Brooklyn for a legit top player.
I rather live to fight another day. I believe going all in at this point in time is rebuild suicide. If we can win 1 championship in 10 years, that's a good ratio.

Yeah, considering our assets, I can't believe the FO is willing to throw away a unique chance at building the right way for a quick fix. No, wait...I can believe it, it just makes me incredibly sad. I think most guys around here who want to see Love in green do it for all kinds of reasons, but certainly not to win a championship. Maybe they like his superficial numbers, maybe it'll give them confidence when they talk basketball at the water cooler, maybe they like a white guy with big stats (and I don't think that's racist per se, considering the NBA landscape), maybe they want to wear a Celtics jersey with the name "Love" on the back, or maybe they just overrate Love and genuinely believe he'll lead us to the promised land.

I believe you guys have hype fever, and I fear we'll become the Boston Knicks by shooting for the fantasy option. I also fear the owners and the FO desperately want to prove how much smarter they are than anybody else, how the Boston Celtics can come back in one year, and how we're above rebuilding through the draft. I'm convinced it will come back and bite us in the rear end.
We'll be stuck in NBA no-mans-land, with a much smaller chance to improve than we have now.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 01:52:35 PM by Casperian »
In the summer of 2017, I predicted this team would not win a championship for the next 10 years.

3 down, 7 to go.

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #117 on: June 01, 2014, 01:39:31 PM »

Offline BballTim

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People can't have it both ways. I never thought a player like Love would be interested in joining the Celtic's so I was all for tanking. Even though we didn't tank as hard as I would've liked it still puts us into a great position as acquiring a top 10 player in the NBA which I didn't think would be possible.

How about we stop focusing on Love's one fault; for once a top 10 player WANTS to come to the Celtics, I don't get the hate. This is what we've all be waiting for, so what he isn't the best defender? The dude is one of the best bigs in the game.

Love is not a top 10 player in this league.  Yes he is one of the better scorers and rebounders but he is not overall (offense + defense) a top 10 player.

Top overall 10 right now (not in order)

Lebron
Durant
Westbrook
LMA
George
Chris Paul
Griffin
Anthony Davis
March Gasol
John Wall

The next group of players (not in order)
Joakim Noah
Harden
DHoward
Love
Melo
Curry

basically guys who can either score or play good defense but can't do both.

I don't want to give up the farm on a "weapon".  I will give up the farm on a complete player though. Someone like a LMA.  We need to be patient , plus the 2015 FA is coming out right around the corner.

  Without commenting on your player rankings, you seem to be pretty hot on LMA. It's worth pointing out that when LMA was Love's age he hadn't even made an all-star team. So even though you're really underestimating Love, keep in mind that he's still young enough that he'll still improve going forward, just like LMA and a host of others have.

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #118 on: June 01, 2014, 01:40:33 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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you're certainly entitled to your thoughts of who is top 10 in the league as i'm sure everybody would have a different opinion on the subject.

myself, I wouldn't include westbrook in the top 10. I think he showed that against the spurs last night. and marc gasol is a very nice player but I wouldn't have him there either.

well your entitled to your opinion also.  But if your considered to be a top 10 player imo, you can do it at both ends of the court.  A guy like Nowitzki is still considered in the 10 group or just on the outside looking in bc he is just an amazing gifted offensive player and competent defender

How is it that a much older Nowitzki with a mediocre supporting cast helped Dallas make the playoffs and Love with a better supporting cast again couldn't help the wolves get in? 

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #119 on: June 01, 2014, 01:42:02 PM »

Offline Jailan34

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People can't have it both ways. I never thought a player like Love would be interested in joining the Celtic's so I was all for tanking. Even though we didn't tank as hard as I would've liked it still puts us into a great position as acquiring a top 10 player in the NBA which I didn't think would be possible.

How about we stop focusing on Love's one fault; for once a top 10 player WANTS to come to the Celtics, I don't get the hate. This is what we've all be waiting for, so what he isn't the best defender? The dude is one of the best bigs in the game.

Love is not a top 10 player in this league.  Yes he is one of the better scorers and rebounders but he is not overall (offense + defense) a top 10 player.

Top overall 10 right now (not in order)

Lebron
Durant
Westbrook
LMA
George
Chris Paul
Griffin
Anthony Davis
March Gasol
John Wall

The next group of players (not in order)
Joakim Noah
Harden
DHoward
Love
Melo
Curry

basically guys who can either score or play good defense but can't do both.

I don't want to give up the farm on a "weapon".  I will give up the farm on a complete player though. Someone like a LMA.  We need to be patient , plus the 2015 FA is coming out right around the corner.

I would take Love over Wall, LMA, Marc Gasol and Curry. I also wouldn't give up the "farm" but I don't consider the 6th pick and either Sully or KO the farm, plus whatever minor assets are needed to make the salaries match.

My main point was that if you are against tanking and for rebuilding "on the fly" or whatever everyone called it, I don't see how you can be against getting Love. I don't see any other disgruntled stars at his age with his level of talent. Yes subsequent moves would have to be made quickly but that is the risk involved with rebuilding quickly instead of through the draft.

There isn't going to be some disgruntled 25 year old 20-10 big man who also plays all NBA defense who also wants to come to Boston. We should be thrilled a player like Love wants to come to a cold weather city instead of forcing his way to LA.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.