Giving up both our 2014 1st to grab Embiid. Yes or no?

[Moranis]

Bogut has never averaged more than 15. 9 points or 10.3 rebounds a game.  Just two seasons above 2.0 blocks as well.  Career FG% of 52.8.

Noah is averaging his career high in points 12.6 and rebounds 11.2 this year.  Just one season (not this one) above 2.0 blocks.  Career FG% of 50.1.

Those are good player numbers, but they aren't HOF player numbers. 


Dwight Howard is shorter than both Bogut and Noah, but his wing span is 7'8".  He hasn't been below 12.3 rebounds in a game since his rookie year and hasn't been below 17.1 points since his second year.  6 of his 10 years above 2.0 blocks a game.  Career FG% of 57.9 (and he hasn't been below 57.2 since his second year).

That is a what a great centers numbers look like and that is a HOF player.


Reach matters.  Especially when you are playing in the paint with the other trees.  It isn't the only thing and you can be very good without the reach, but you had better darn well be physically strong, athletic as all get out, with a quick burst, and massive leaping ability if you don't have the reach and are going to be a HOF center.

You're missing one important aspect to Noah's stats - 5 assists a game. I'll let you go look up how many centers have averaged 12-11-5 over an entire season.

Or, you know, I could just tell you. It's Noah, Walton, Russell, Kareem, and Wilt. The only times that one of those seasons didn't result in an MVP award? Kareem in '79 (the second time he hit that plateau) and either Russell or Wilt, I forget which, because the other one won it, and there's no such thing as co-MVP.

Joakim Noah, right now, is the best center in the NBA.  If you don't agree it's well within your rights to be wrong, and no one is going to stop you.

No question the assists are nice, but centers aren't measured by assists.  They are measured by points, rebounds, and shot altering on defense.   You know all those other centers, were scoring 20 points a game (except Walton's 18.9) and blocking well over 2 shots a game.  A passing center is a bonus, but that is not the measure of what a center should be and what the all time great centers are.

  I don't think Noah is really the best center, more the flavor of the month. Aside from that, though, I disagree with the sentiment of your post. Being skilled at many things is quite a bonus, as is being skilled at things that others at your position aren't. You can't just dismiss the value of a good passing center and the effect it can have on a team because some of the all-time greats didn't possess that skill.

I don't mean to be dismissing it and certainly if Noah was more like a 20/11/5 guy the passing would be a great bonus, but with Noah it is almost like the assists are being used to prop up an otherwise sub-par center.

[Tr1boy]

Noah is a nice center but not a franchise calibre one.

Guys like hakeem, duncan, robinson etc are. Players that can dominate on both ends. And again kind of goes back to the wingspan, reach argument. If noah had exceptional length he could score 3 more buckets easier via hook shots, jump shots over trees and even some more tip ins.

[Moranis]

Noah is a nice center but not a franchise calibre one.

Guys like hakeem, duncan, robinson etc are. Players that can dominate on both ends. And again kind of goes back to the wingspan, reach argument. If noah had exceptional length he could score 3 more buckets easier via hook shots, jump shots over trees and even some more tip ins.

or block an extra shot or two and alter more than that.  Or grab another board or two (and be more in the Dwight range for those).

[Vox_Populi]

There are 10 players who average more blocks per game than Joakim Noah. Only 3 have a lower opponent rim FG% and only one has a lower opponent FGM and FGA at the rim. But hey, blocks sure look good.

[D.o.s.]

I also don't think a longer wingspan would do anything for Noah's jumpshot -- which is possibly the ugliest in the game.

Noah is a nice center but not a franchise calibre one.

Guys like hakeem, duncan, robinson etc are. Players that can dominate on both ends. And again kind of goes back to the wingspan, reach argument. If noah had exceptional length he could score 3 more buckets easier via hook shots, jump shots over trees and even some more tip ins.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you never saw Hakeem or Robinson play.
I'm also going to wonder why you never responded to Loose Cannon's assertion that Okafor's wingspan has been more recently measured at 7'6" -- does that mean he's now an elite prospect?


edit -- I would also dispute the fact (from a few pages back) that Dwight Howard is a Hall of Fame player.

[Edgar]

Hola

[Moranis]

I also don't think a longer wingspan would do anything for Noah's jumpshot -- which is possibly the ugliest in the game.

Noah is a nice center but not a franchise calibre one.

Guys like hakeem, duncan, robinson etc are. Players that can dominate on both ends. And again kind of goes back to the wingspan, reach argument. If noah had exceptional length he could score 3 more buckets easier via hook shots, jump shots over trees and even some more tip ins.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you never saw Hakeem or Robinson play.
I'm also going to wonder why you never responded to Loose Cannon's assertion that Okafor's wingspan has been more recently measured at 7'6" -- does that mean he's now an elite prospect?


edit -- I would also dispute the fact (from a few pages back) that Dwight Howard is a Hall of Fame player.

Dwight Howard's HOF probability is .8796.  http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob.html

There is not a single eligible player with a higher probability that is not in the HOF. 

[D.o.s.]

Carmelo Anthony's HOF probability is .9014

Do you think 'Melo is destined for the Hall, too?

[Fafnir]

Carmelo Anthony's HOF probability is .9014

Do you think 'Melo is destined for the Hall, too?

Yes.

[D.o.s.]

Carmelo Anthony's HOF probability is .9014

Do you think 'Melo is destined for the Hall, too?

Yes.

That's surprising.

One Scoring title, One WCF  appearance,  a bunch of all-star selections and 2nd and 3rd team All-NBA -- I think more highly of Carmelo than many people on this blog, and I don't think he's hall-worthy

[Quetzalcoatl]

That's surprising.

One Scoring title, One WCF  appearance,  a bunch of all-star selections and 2nd and 3rd team All-NBA -- I think more highly of Carmelo than many people on this blog, and I don't think he's hall-worthy

He also has an NCAAM championship as the best player and has 2 gold medals (plus a bronze), plus he was arguably the Finals MVP of the Beijing championship game vs Argentina and has the all time scoring record in MSG and for the men's team in the Olympics.

[Fafnir]

Carmelo Anthony's HOF probability is .9014

Do you think 'Melo is destined for the Hall, too?

Yes.

That's surprising.

One Scoring title, One WCF  appearance,  a bunch of all-star selections and 2nd and 3rd team All-NBA -- I think more highly of Carmelo than many people on this blog, and I don't think he's hall-worthy

I think he'll get in just because superficially his reputation has been so huge, Olympic/college success, and his counting stats will compare favorably with other SFs in the HoF.

Compare his numbers to Pierce for example along with his all-star starts, all-nba, etc, etc.

[Moranis]

Carmelo Anthony's HOF probability is .9014

Do you think 'Melo is destined for the Hall, too?

Yes.  The probability is based on looking at what actually gets people into the HOF.  It is pretty darn accurate historically.  Melo has the numbers, he has the fame, and frankly has a lot of the other things that are needed (all star games, all nba, etc.).  He has never missed the playoffs in his career.  Has a NCAA title.  A lot of U.S. Olympic success.  Carmelo Anthony will make the basketball HOF and I don't think there is really any question. 

[Edgar]

So... no i ont think we should give both our 2014 1st to grab Embiid and i dont think that will be his price tag either, it will be higher

[D.o.s.]

Carmelo Anthony's HOF probability is .9014

Do you think 'Melo is destined for the Hall, too?

Yes.  The probability is based on looking at what actually gets people into the HOF.  It is pretty darn accurate historically.  Melo has the numbers, he has the fame, and frankly has a lot of the other things that are needed (all star games, all nba, etc.).  He has never missed the playoffs in his career.  Has a NCAA title.  A lot of U.S. Olympic success.  Carmelo Anthony will make the basketball HOF and I don't think there is really any question.

I will say this, Moranis, you are my favorite bean counter on this site.

And I mean that as a compliment.