Giving up both our 2014 1st to grab Embiid. Yes or no?

[D.o.s.]

I'll take Noah as my starting center any time, short wingspan or not.

And if Bogut wasn't so injury prone and those past injuries didn't effect his current play, him too. Bogut before his serious injury in Milwaukee was starting to bloom into a great center on both sides of the ball.

TP Nick.

Triboy, you realize Noah is playing at a historically MVP level for centers this season, right? He is, hands down, the best center in the league right now.

But, yeah, feel free to bail on him because his wingspan is an inch to short.

Noah has limitations but yeah playing great for a C. Like chandler he makes up lack of exceptional length with his explosiveness

Which 2015 centers fall under this category? Even if there are what are the chances they become like noah or chandler?

Lets not take a chance , i mean likely we wont be this bad next season anways to get a high pick and try to hit a home run with embiid.

I agree -- there aren't many, if any, rim protectors coming down the pipeline in 2015. At least, none that I've seen.

I also agree that Embiid has a solid shot of being the Center of the Future for one of these franchises, and I'd be excited to see him in green.

However I'm not sure it's worth it to trade up a couple of spots, at the cost of our second first round pick just to nab him. If we're picking 4th or 3rd, I think we take whichever of the 'Big 4' falls to us -- especially with Embiid's back still a relative unknown at this point.

[Tr1boy]

That seems like a silly reason to disqualify someone like Okafor, who is definitely a great looking prospect (even if he 'only' has a 7'3 wingspan)

I agree on its face that is silly, but if you look at the great centers (even the second tier HOFers) they all had wing spans greater than 7'3".  Even a guy like Alonzo Mourning who was only 6'10" had a 7'4" wing span. 

That seems like a silly reason to disqualify someone like Okafor, who is definitely a great looking prospect (even if he 'only' has a 7'3 wingspan)

As silly as you think, it matters. Also okafor while big is not really athletic or explosive  which doesnt help.

List me some exceptional centers in the nba that has 7'0 to 7'2 wingspan. Only one that I know is chandler but makes it up with his leaping ability.

Don't get me wrong , Okafor's most likely not going to be anything like the rim protector we need, I'm just saying that he's a great prospect.


Your argument TB16, is, essentially, the same as if I were to say 'Embiid's not a great prospect because he was born outside of the US, and only four foreign nationals have ever won the NBA MVP award'.


Also using your beloved DraftExpress, Bogut's got a 7'3 wingspan, and he's a great defensive player. A'mare's got a 7'1 wingspan, and if you don't think he played Center for the Suns, you never watched them. Noah's wingspan is 7'1. You already listed Chandler.
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements.php?page=&year=All&source=All&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=5&sort=5

Bogut is a second tier center at best. And yeah , maybe if he had a few inches longer wingspan he would be that much better. Also im a big fan of noah but he has issues vs premium longer guys and also has little ability to operate in the post in the offensive end bc he cant get shots/hook shots over

I'm sorry, I can't let this go...

Bogut is a top 10 Center who's being criminally misused in Golden State.

There are only a few Centers who not only can anchor the defense, but makes a difference for the whole team. Offensively he's solid. We forgot how decent of a post player he is because (stupid) Mark Jackson relegated him to just nothing more than a guy who protect the paint (doing it pretty well) and cuts his minutes in favor of matching up against small ball.

And he did not need longer wingspan and elite athleticism to average 11 rebounds and lead the league in blocks in '10 - '11.

11 reb while good is not 13-14  that guys like dhoward and drummond get year after year.

Also bogut did lead in blocking shots but at what cost?  He has to get out of position other times he tries to block and cant recover. Look at guys like davis who can miss a block but still get a hand on another shot.

If we had bogut now we would be better but not one of the better teams. I dont feel this way with the possibility of how good embiid can be

[Tr1boy]

I'll take Noah as my starting center any time, short wingspan or not.

And if Bogut wasn't so injury prone and those past injuries didn't effect his current play, him too. Bogut before his serious injury in Milwaukee was starting to bloom into a great center on both sides of the ball.

TP Nick.

Triboy, you realize Noah is playing at a historically MVP level for centers this season, right? He is, hands down, the best center in the league right now.

But, yeah, feel free to bail on him because his wingspan is an inch to short.

Noah has limitations but yeah playing great for a C. Like chandler he makes up lack of exceptional length with his explosiveness

Which 2015 centers fall under this category? Even if there are what are the chances they become like noah or chandler?

Lets not take a chance , i mean likely we wont be this bad next season anways to get a high pick and try to hit a home run with embiid.

I agree -- there aren't many, if any, rim protectors coming down the pipeline in 2015. At least, none that I've seen.

I also agree that Embiid has a solid shot of being the Center of the Future for one of these franchises, and I'd be excited to see him in green.

However I'm not sure it's worth it to trade up a couple of spots, at the cost of our second first round pick just to nab him. If we're picking 4th or 3rd, I think we take whichever of the 'Big 4' falls to us -- especially with Embiid's back still a relative unknown at this point.

Your sort of saying we need him but dont need him. No rim protector in 2015 draft. No assursnce we get a premium center in FA or via trade. So we get wiggins and he is not projected to be a lebron. We are still hurtin for a legit center, rim protector, post scoring. So how are we going to have a chance to to be relevant anytime soon?

[Yoki_IsTheName]

That seems like a silly reason to disqualify someone like Okafor, who is definitely a great looking prospect (even if he 'only' has a 7'3 wingspan)

I agree on its face that is silly, but if you look at the great centers (even the second tier HOFers) they all had wing spans greater than 7'3".  Even a guy like Alonzo Mourning who was only 6'10" had a 7'4" wing span. 

That seems like a silly reason to disqualify someone like Okafor, who is definitely a great looking prospect (even if he 'only' has a 7'3 wingspan)

As silly as you think, it matters. Also okafor while big is not really athletic or explosive  which doesnt help.

List me some exceptional centers in the nba that has 7'0 to 7'2 wingspan. Only one that I know is chandler but makes it up with his leaping ability.

Don't get me wrong , Okafor's most likely not going to be anything like the rim protector we need, I'm just saying that he's a great prospect.


Your argument TB16, is, essentially, the same as if I were to say 'Embiid's not a great prospect because he was born outside of the US, and only four foreign nationals have ever won the NBA MVP award'.


Also using your beloved DraftExpress, Bogut's got a 7'3 wingspan, and he's a great defensive player. A'mare's got a 7'1 wingspan, and if you don't think he played Center for the Suns, you never watched them. Noah's wingspan is 7'1. You already listed Chandler.
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements.php?page=&year=All&source=All&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=5&sort=5

Bogut is a second tier center at best. And yeah , maybe if he had a few inches longer wingspan he would be that much better. Also im a big fan of noah but he has issues vs premium longer guys and also has little ability to operate in the post in the offensive end bc he cant get shots/hook shots over

I'm sorry, I can't let this go...

Bogut is a top 10 Center who's being criminally misused in Golden State.

There are only a few Centers who not only can anchor the defense, but makes a difference for the whole team. Offensively he's solid. We forgot how decent of a post player he is because (stupid) Mark Jackson relegated him to just nothing more than a guy who protect the paint (doing it pretty well) and cuts his minutes in favor of matching up against small ball.

And he did not need longer wingspan and elite athleticism to average 11 rebounds and lead the league in blocks in '10 - '11.

11 reb while good is not 13-14  that guys like dhoward and drummond get year after year.

Also bogut did lead in blocking shots but at what cost?  He has to get out of position other times he tries to block and cant recover. Look at guys like davis who can miss a block but still get a hand on another shot.

If we had bogut now we would be better but not one of the better teams. I dont feel this way with the possibility of how good embiid can be

Dwight Howard is on a different level. And you're making it sound like 11 rebounds is an easy task to do for an NBA Center.  And Drummond cant pass and not as skilled as Bogut is, not even sure yet if he can anchor one.

And isnt helping out on defense a great trait for Centers? Asking him to recover quickly, while could be great, is asking too much.  When you help, its up to the other guys to rotate and cover for you man since you're covering for someone else. Anthony Davis is on another level. But to completely dismiss Bogut's defensive impact because he cant go and chase another shot "after helping" to get a previous one? Wow...

BTW in '10-'11 The Bucks allowed opponents to 45% shooting on average (6th in the NBA), allowed 92.7 points (3rd in the NBA) and ranked 7th in turnovers allowed. Guess who anchored that defense?

(stats are per basketball-reference.com)

If Embiid would have an Andrew Bogut career without the injuries, you probably not hit a homerun, it it sure as heck can be stretched to a triple. So go and stretch it.

[Fred Roberts]

I think we're going to get Embiid anyways. I believe we're ready to get lucky.

If we get unlucky, I see Noah's Ark Vonleh becoming our guy (unless Wiggins, Jabari is available).

[Tr1boy]

That seems like a silly reason to disqualify someone like Okafor, who is definitely a great looking prospect (even if he 'only' has a 7'3 wingspan)

I agree on its face that is silly, but if you look at the great centers (even the second tier HOFers) they all had wing spans greater than 7'3".  Even a guy like Alonzo Mourning who was only 6'10" had a 7'4" wing span. 

That seems like a silly reason to disqualify someone like Okafor, who is definitely a great looking prospect (even if he 'only' has a 7'3 wingspan)

As silly as you think, it matters. Also okafor while big is not really athletic or explosive  which doesnt help.

List me some exceptional centers in the nba that has 7'0 to 7'2 wingspan. Only one that I know is chandler but makes it up with his leaping ability.

Don't get me wrong , Okafor's most likely not going to be anything like the rim protector we need, I'm just saying that he's a great prospect.


Your argument TB16, is, essentially, the same as if I were to say 'Embiid's not a great prospect because he was born outside of the US, and only four foreign nationals have ever won the NBA MVP award'.


Also using your beloved DraftExpress, Bogut's got a 7'3 wingspan, and he's a great defensive player. A'mare's got a 7'1 wingspan, and if you don't think he played Center for the Suns, you never watched them. Noah's wingspan is 7'1. You already listed Chandler.
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements.php?page=&year=All&source=All&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=5&sort=5

Bogut is a second tier center at best. And yeah , maybe if he had a few inches longer wingspan he would be that much better. Also im a big fan of noah but he has issues vs premium longer guys and also has little ability to operate in the post in the offensive end bc he cant get shots/hook shots over

I'm sorry, I can't let this go...

Bogut is a top 10 Center who's being criminally misused in Golden State.

There are only a few Centers who not only can anchor the defense, but makes a difference for the whole team. Offensively he's solid. We forgot how decent of a post player he is because (stupid) Mark Jackson relegated him to just nothing more than a guy who protect the paint (doing it pretty well) and cuts his minutes in favor of matching up against small ball.

And he did not need longer wingspan and elite athleticism to average 11 rebounds and lead the league in blocks in '10 - '11.

11 reb while good is not 13-14  that guys like dhoward and drummond get year after year.

Also bogut did lead in blocking shots but at what cost?  He has to get out of position other times he tries to block and cant recover. Look at guys like davis who can miss a block but still get a hand on another shot.

If we had bogut now we would be better but not one of the better teams. I dont feel this way with the possibility of how good embiid can be

Dwight Howard is on a different level. And you're making it sound like 11 rebounds is an easy task to do for an NBA Center.  And Drummond cant pass and not as skilled as Bogut is, not even sure yet if he can anchor one.

And isnt helping out on defense a great trait for Centers? Asking him to recover quickly, while could be great, is asking too much.  When you help, its up to the other guys to rotate and cover for you man since you're covering for someone else. Anthony Davis is on another level. But to completely dismiss Bogut's defensive impact because he cant go and chase another shot "after helping" to get a previous one? Wow...

BTW in '10-'11 The Bucks allowed opponents to 45% shooting on average (6th in the NBA), allowed 92.7 points (3rd in the NBA) and ranked 7th in turnovers allowed. Guess who anchored that defense?

(stats are per basketball-reference.com)

If Embiid would have an Andrew Bogut career without the injuries, you probably not hit a homerun, it it sure as heck can be stretched to a triple. So go and stretch it.

Its time we deserve to get a  "on another level" center

Not lets just get a competent one

Embiid if for sure was on the path to be amazing and had zero back issues would be traded by no team that chooses him. Lucky for us there are some uncertainties plus teams like the magic already have a good up coming center for example

[D.o.s.]

But if Embiid is already set to be that next level center, why wouldn't the Magic just hold on to him?

In fact, I'd argue that a team like the Magic has more incentive to draft him and stash him behind a player like Vucevic, the same way we could stash parker or Wiggins behind Jeff Green and/or AB as they develop.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

That seems like a silly reason to disqualify someone like Okafor, who is definitely a great looking prospect (even if he 'only' has a 7'3 wingspan)

I agree on its face that is silly, but if you look at the great centers (even the second tier HOFers) they all had wing spans greater than 7'3".  Even a guy like Alonzo Mourning who was only 6'10" had a 7'4" wing span. 

That seems like a silly reason to disqualify someone like Okafor, who is definitely a great looking prospect (even if he 'only' has a 7'3 wingspan)

As silly as you think, it matters. Also okafor while big is not really athletic or explosive  which doesnt help.

List me some exceptional centers in the nba that has 7'0 to 7'2 wingspan. Only one that I know is chandler but makes it up with his leaping ability.

Don't get me wrong , Okafor's most likely not going to be anything like the rim protector we need, I'm just saying that he's a great prospect.


Your argument TB16, is, essentially, the same as if I were to say 'Embiid's not a great prospect because he was born outside of the US, and only four foreign nationals have ever won the NBA MVP award'.


Also using your beloved DraftExpress, Bogut's got a 7'3 wingspan, and he's a great defensive player. A'mare's got a 7'1 wingspan, and if you don't think he played Center for the Suns, you never watched them. Noah's wingspan is 7'1. You already listed Chandler.
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements.php?page=&year=All&source=All&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=5&sort=5

Bogut is a second tier center at best. And yeah , maybe if he had a few inches longer wingspan he would be that much better. Also im a big fan of noah but he has issues vs premium longer guys and also has little ability to operate in the post in the offensive end bc he cant get shots/hook shots over

I'm sorry, I can't let this go...

Bogut is a top 10 Center who's being criminally misused in Golden State.

There are only a few Centers who not only can anchor the defense, but makes a difference for the whole team. Offensively he's solid. We forgot how decent of a post player he is because (stupid) Mark Jackson relegated him to just nothing more than a guy who protect the paint (doing it pretty well) and cuts his minutes in favor of matching up against small ball.

And he did not need longer wingspan and elite athleticism to average 11 rebounds and lead the league in blocks in '10 - '11.

11 reb while good is not 13-14  that guys like dhoward and drummond get year after year.

Also bogut did lead in blocking shots but at what cost?  He has to get out of position other times he tries to block and cant recover. Look at guys like davis who can miss a block but still get a hand on another shot.

If we had bogut now we would be better but not one of the better teams. I dont feel this way with the possibility of how good embiid can be

Dwight Howard is on a different level. And you're making it sound like 11 rebounds is an easy task to do for an NBA Center.  And Drummond cant pass and not as skilled as Bogut is, not even sure yet if he can anchor one.

And isnt helping out on defense a great trait for Centers? Asking him to recover quickly, while could be great, is asking too much.  When you help, its up to the other guys to rotate and cover for you man since you're covering for someone else. Anthony Davis is on another level. But to completely dismiss Bogut's defensive impact because he cant go and chase another shot "after helping" to get a previous one? Wow...

BTW in '10-'11 The Bucks allowed opponents to 45% shooting on average (6th in the NBA), allowed 92.7 points (3rd in the NBA) and ranked 7th in turnovers allowed. Guess who anchored that defense?

(stats are per basketball-reference.com)

If Embiid would have an Andrew Bogut career without the injuries, you probably not hit a homerun, it it sure as heck can be stretched to a triple. So go and stretch it.

Its time we deserve to get a  "on another level" center

Not lets just get a competent one

Embiid if for sure was on the path to be amazing and had zero back issues would be traded by no team that chooses him. Lucky for us there are some uncertainties plus teams like the magic already have a good up coming center for example

Embiid has the potential to be that "another level" Center. But you may not be able to get him unless you take risks.

Back issue is a concern, but then again, pro wrestlers can get back in the ring after multiple neck surgeries, whats a basketball player's chance of coming back to for after back issues? Very high.

[Moranis]

Bogut has never averaged more than 15. 9 points or 10.3 rebounds a game.  Just two seasons above 2.0 blocks as well.  Career FG% of 52.8.

Noah is averaging his career high in points 12.6 and rebounds 11.2 this year.  Just one season (not this one) above 2.0 blocks.  Career FG% of 50.1.

Those are good player numbers, but they aren't HOF player numbers. 


Dwight Howard is shorter than both Bogut and Noah, but his wing span is 7'8".  He hasn't been below 12.3 rebounds in a game since his rookie year and hasn't been below 17.1 points since his second year.  6 of his 10 years above 2.0 blocks a game.  Career FG% of 57.9 (and he hasn't been below 57.2 since his second year).

That is a what a great centers numbers look like and that is a HOF player.


Reach matters.  Especially when you are playing in the paint with the other trees.  It isn't the only thing and you can be very good without the reach, but you had better darn well be physically strong, athletic as all get out, with a quick burst, and massive leaping ability if you don't have the reach and are going to be a HOF center.

[Tr1boy]

Bogut has never averaged more than 15. 9 points or 10.3 rebounds a game.  Just two seasons above 2.0 blocks as well.  Career FG% of 52.8.

Noah is averaging his career high in points 12.6 and rebounds 11.2 this year.  Just one season (not this one) above 2.0 blocks.  Career FG% of 50.1.

Those are good player numbers, but they aren't HOF player numbers. 


Dwight Howard is shorter than both Bogut and Noah, but his wing span is 7'8".  He hasn't been below 12.3 rebounds in a game since his rookie year and hasn't been below 17.1 points since his second year.  6 of his 10 years above 2.0 blocks a game.  Career FG% of 57.9 (and he hasn't been below 57.2 since his second year).

That is a what a great centers numbers look like and that is a HOF player.


Reach matters.  Especially when you are playing in the paint with the other trees.  It isn't the only thing and you can be very good without the reach, but you had better darn well be physically strong, athletic as all get out, with a quick burst, and massive leaping ability if you don't have the reach and are going to be a HOF center.

+1.

[nickagneta]

First...Its Nerlens not Nerlins

Second, any Enbiid speculation needs to be tempered until the doctors get a look at his medical records and see what was wrong with his back. If it was a severely strained muscle, that's one thing, if it was anything else, well, Sullinger and Noel fell like crazy because of injury. Embiid might as well.

Word will leak after the NBA doctors get a hold of Embiid. Let's see what comes of that.

In the mean time, no, I don't do the deal. I like Embiid less than Wiggins. It would be Wiggins I would trade up for.

You were very down on Wiggins when the season started. Glad to see you changed your mind. I would love for us to get Wiggins. He's 1st on my draft board.

Embiid does scare me a bit. So much potential, but a lot of risk as well.

I wasn't down on Wiggins as much as I questioned reports that had him in the same stratosphere as Lebron and Durant, and those reports were quite widespread and rehashed on this site. Then when he came out and showed the flaws in his game and showed the one major flaw I pointed out early on, his inconsistency/passiveness/non-killer instinct I just pointed that out. And let me say I was pointing that out well before the media and GMs were starting to question this in him.

I was also cautioning people jumping to conclusions on these players before they had even played a college game. The hype and expectations put on these poor kids were ridiculous and I cautioned coming to conclusions and expecting such hype to be realized.

But, after watching a lot of these players play complete games at least 3-4 times each, IMO, Andrew Wiggins is the player who has the highest upside potential combined with the least likely bust potential. He could give a team the equal of Victor Oladipo next year. He could give a lot less as he adjusts to the pros. But ultimately, if I am Boston, Wiggins is the player I draft. He fits a need AND is probably the best player available no matter where you take him.

He's just not Lebron or Durant.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Bogut has never averaged more than 15. 9 points or 10.3 rebounds a game.  Just two seasons above 2.0 blocks as well.  Career FG% of 52.8.

Noah is averaging his career high in points 12.6 and rebounds 11.2 this year.  Just one season (not this one) above 2.0 blocks.  Career FG% of 50.1.

Those are good player numbers, but they aren't HOF player numbers. 


Dwight Howard is shorter than both Bogut and Noah, but his wing span is 7'8".  He hasn't been below 12.3 rebounds in a game since his rookie year and hasn't been below 17.1 points since his second year.  6 of his 10 years above 2.0 blocks a game.  Career FG% of 57.9 (and he hasn't been below 57.2 since his second year).

That is a what a great centers numbers look like and that is a HOF player.


Reach matters.  Especially when you are playing in the paint with the other trees.  It isn't the only thing and you can be very good without the reach, but you had better darn well be physically strong, athletic as all get out, with a quick burst, and massive leaping ability if you don't have the reach and are going to be a HOF center.

I disagree. Reach helps, but it's not like it's the most important thing. (i mean that in a way that of course you have to have atleast decent wingspan)

Dwight indeed has long arms, but also had imposing strength and athleticism. I'll bet my WrestleMania tickets that if Noah and Bogut had Howard's strength and athleticism, they would also be able to easily average 14 rebounds a game and possibly dominate. 

Besides, those two guys are already proving the point that not so long wingspan can still work in the NBA. It may not be HOF numbers but enough to be recognized as one of the best defensive centers in the NBA, or better, an MVP candidate. While they dont average the same amount of rebounds as Dwight, we've seen them have monster rebounding games. They are not as good as Dwight, but they are capable. And they have shorter arms.

Just for comparison. Bogut's per 36 this season puts him averaging 13.8 (via basketball-reference). If Mark Jackson is not stupid and let Bogut be on the court longer, he could be grabbing the same amount of boards as Dwight this season.

[nickagneta]

No why Joakim Noah is so good?

Because he is a hell of an all around basketball player.

Sometimes, you have to sacrifice the physical stats and just go with the guy that knows how to play the game. Noah knows how to play the game. He's got a fabulous motor for a big man and he brings it every second he is on the floor.

Been saying since that 2009 series with Boston that I would take Noah any time to be a Celtic. He's got a ton of Dave Cowens in him and being a child of the 70's, that means a whole lot more to me than it does to a lot of you.

[Tr1boy]

No why Joakim Noah is so good?

Because he is a hell of an all around basketball player.

Sometimes, you have to sacrifice the physical stats and just go with the guy that knows how to play the game. Noah knows how to play the game. He's got a fabulous motor for a big man and he brings it every second he is on the floor.

Been saying since that 2009 series with Boston that I would take Noah any time to be a Celtic. He's got a ton of Dave Cowens in him and being a child of the 70's, that means a whole lot more to me than it does to a lot of you.

Again noah , chandler are exceptions  for centers with only mediocre wingspans.

Just go the traditional way , dont take a risk and draft a gyy with a nice wingspan plus upside.

If we cant  get embiid, danny should consider taking a risk on capela with our 2nd first. Kid has potential to be like a ibaka in a year or two and then a legit center if he can put on more weight

[crimson_stallion]

No.

Firstly, I think the top 4 guys in this draft all have similar potential.  Either one of those guys could end up becoming the disfinitive NBA superstar.  Moving from 3 or 4 to 1 is IMHO more of a sideways step.

Secondly throwing all my eggs in one basket is too risky of a move for a high risk player like Embiid.  He has poor basketball IQ and a history of back problems...work the gamble if you can take him with our own first, but not worth giving up our own first (plus other picks) for.

I'd much rather just keep our pick and trade up our second pick so we can grab a big later In the lottery (Vonleh in particular).  Wouldn't surprise me if he ends up becoming an All-Star in the future (i see a lot of Amare in him) so adding him to a talent pool of Wiggins/Parker/Exum, Bradley, Sully, Olynyk...that is a lot of young potential to work with.