Danny wants to build around rondo, green,sully (rumor)

[crimson_stallion]

Didn't see this posted as a thread, sry if it already has been posted

 http://msn.foxsports.com/ohio/story/nba-beat-raptors-lowry-tops-list-of-potential-trade-pieces-021014

Most executives contacted by FOX Sports Ohio say it seems moreand morelikelythat Ainge and coach Brad Stevens want to build around point guard Rajon Rondo, forward Jeff Green and second-year big man Jared Sullinger, the reigning Eastern Conference Player of the Week.

Everyone else, however, appears to be available. (And even those three aren't considered untouchable.)

Outside of Rondo, Green and Sullinger, forward Brandon Bass and guard Avery Bradley are drawing the most interest. The samegoesfor backup forward Kris Humphries, whose $12 million contractis set to expire.

 


I would probably do a hump, bradley for asik, late 1st trade

I would still trade green if I'm danny, he provides to much scoring for us to tank ...

I can't tell if you are serious, or if that is sarcasm?

Asik is being paid $8M this year.  He's being paid $15M next year.  He is putting up the same per-36 minute numbers as Reggie Evans, who is making $1.7M this year. and even more next year.  In fact, for all intents and purposes he pretty much is a 7 foot Reggie Evans.

Despite all of the above, he believes he is too good to come off the bench.

If you had Asik on your roster for that type of payroll, you would be PAYING teams just to take him off your hands. 

Avery Bradley is a very solid young prospect who is ALREADY better than Asik will ever be.  He is on a measley $2.5M contract that expires after this season.

Kris Humphreys is good enough to be a solid starter or a very good 6th man on a playoff team.  He's already far better than Asik, and he's on a $12M contract that expires after this year.

Why in god's name would you trade two skilled and productive players with legit trade value and $14.5M in expiring contracts...in exchange for a 7'0" Reggie Evans on a multi-year contract (which happens to also be one of the worst contracts in the game).  Oh, and a mid-to-late first rounder...probably would become a future role player at best.

Especially when you are a team that is in a rebuilding phase and your primary goal is clearing cap space and acquiring young talent. 

Imagine another opposing team had two guys on their team who are both < 30 years old, both starting calibre players, and had a combined $15M in expiring contracts attached.  Can you imagine that team giving up those guys in exchange for Gerald Wallace and our Clippers pick?  I think not...

[crimson_stallion]

makes sense, 3 good all around players, 1 being a upper level player
add in a scary draft pick and sign a top notch free agent and that is a contender

Neither Rondo nor Sullinger are anything close to "good all around players".

I hope you're saying they're better than that. No?

Perhaps you need to check the definition of "all-around"? You're talking about a guard who can't make threes or free throws, and a big who doesn't really block or challenge shots. No matter how good you consider these two players to be, they're not "all-around" due to the fact that you need to alter your game plan to cover for the things they don't do well.

Rondo has historically been a double figure scorer, a league leading assist guy, an elite rebounding PG, and a multi-year All Defense selection.

He leads all active players in triple doubles, and his playoff triple double numbers are historically good - ALREADY right up thre the leagues all time greats. 

If you want to go REALLY technical on the term "All Around" then you would also have to say Durant is not an "All Around" player - he's a woeful defender.  Same for Carmello.  In fact, about the only guys who you COULD call "All Around" players are Lebron and Chris Paul.

If that (a player who has zero faults) is your definition of All-Around, then it's fair to say that Rondo (like Durant) is not an "All Around" player. 

We will just have to settle on "well rounded" player instead.  Is that label ok with you?

[crimson_stallion]

I believe Asik and Waiters can be picked up reasonable for trades.   They would immediately make the Celtics better.......

Maybe too much .....if your tanking for Parker 

Make the Celtics better how? 

Wiaters maybe (though I do think he's overrated).  Asik though?  If you put him in as our starting center I think it would immediately make the Celtics exponentially worse....

That top 3 draft pick would be all but guaranteed!

[BballTim]

you don't believe Rondo was a bad defender last year?

He let guys get by him one after another after another (just like how he let Calderon the last game). He takes risks to steal the ball alot of times instead of just staying in front of his man. 

You keep spitting out stats to try to backup your claim. Instead of actually watching the game and even watching the end score.

Without Rondo last year we gave up less points. With pressey starting the last 5 games, we have been a better defensive team. And yes alot of it has to do with Rondo. You let the other pg get through and the wheels falls off for the whole team

1) I watch every single game.  Sometimes more than once.

2) I trust my lying eyes far more than I trust yours.

3) Doc preached a strategy of always guiding attackers to their left hand and into a help defender.   Rondo was a disciple.  This strategy requires others on the team defense to execute (help).   This is what my eyes watched in the games.

4) The stats show that when Rondo was on the floor with veterans who knew what the heck they were supposed to do in picking up rotations behind him, our defense was great.   When he was on the floor with a bunch of newbs who frequently and obviously blew rotations, our defense was bad.

But you go on with your compelling arguments.

TP

I watched every game last year, excellent points you made there. The added fact that the roster turnover last year was HUGE, given that there were only 4 healthy players who played in the ECF in 2012 and returned the next year.

Also I'm more inclined to believe the experts who have given Rondo multiple All-team defense selections, because they sure know what they are looking for compared to forum bloggers. His lateral quickness may be horible atm, but he still pushes players to the correct position for help defenders, it's unfortunate that Sully at center can't block a shot to save his life.

What about last year? Why was his defense so poor then?  And why did we play better defense with the same team when he went off due to injuries?

  If you paid any attention to the team last year you saw great variations in the team's defense. They were very poor early on and improved significantly as the season progressed. What was the main reason for the poor defense at the beginning of the season? Aside from new players not knowing their rotations, it was the play of the bigs aside from KG.

  In the first month or two of the season the defense was 18 ppp worse when KG was on the bench than it was when he was in the game. That's a staggering number. As the season progressed the defense with KG improved to the point that it was just as good with KG on the bench as it was with him in the game.

  Where does that leave Rondo? He played the bulk of his minutes in November and December when the bigs aside from KG were terrible and was out with an injury when the defense was playing well. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Rondo's overall numbers would be bad just because of that.

  Did you follow the team closely enough last year to see any problems on defense aside from Rondo? Did it occur to you that they might effect his on/off numbers? I'd guess not.

  How about our won/loss record, by the way? KG was playing roughly half of the game, and the defense was miserable with him on the bench. Do you understand how that bad defense might affect our record? Does it factor into your "we were better without Rondo" claims? Because, for the most part, you'd have to assume that the people who tout our slightly improved record without Rondo last year were either unable to see the change in our defense or didn't understand that it might impact our record.

[BballTim]

I know BballTim is fond of bringing up Rondo's all-defense awards, but my suspicion is that any defensive accolades for Rondo are squarely in the past tense, and help us evaluate his play in the present about as much as you might infer.

  Is this similar to your suspicion that Rondo's play in his first few games back from injury was at an unsustainably high level?

That's the opposite of my suspicion, which was that the Rondo we see around the ASB is the Rondo that'll be here to stay.

  Pretty sure that you responded to one of my posts about how Rondo was still getting a lot of assists post-injury with the statement that it was a small sample size and he might not be able to sustain that level of play.

[D.o.s.]

Oh, ok. The Kendall Marshall thing. That's more of a thought experiement, I think, but I can see where you're coming from.

[BballTim]

Oh, ok. The Kendall Marshall thing. That's more of a thought experiement, I think, but I can see where you're coming from.

  That sounds about right. I thought it was a fairly odd thing to post but then that hardly sets it apart from the crowd.

[rondohondo]

Didn't see this posted as a thread, sry if it already has been posted

 http://msn.foxsports.com/ohio/story/nba-beat-raptors-lowry-tops-list-of-potential-trade-pieces-021014

Most executives contacted by FOX Sports Ohio say it seems moreand morelikelythat Ainge and coach Brad Stevens want to build around point guard Rajon Rondo, forward Jeff Green and second-year big man Jared Sullinger, the reigning Eastern Conference Player of the Week.

Everyone else, however, appears to be available. (And even those three aren't considered untouchable.)

Outside of Rondo, Green and Sullinger, forward Brandon Bass and guard Avery Bradley are drawing the most interest. The samegoesfor backup forward Kris Humphries, whose $12 million contractis set to expire.

 


I would probably do a hump, bradley for asik, late 1st trade

I would still trade green if I'm danny, he provides to much scoring for us to tank ...

I can't tell if you are serious, or if that is sarcasm?

Asik is being paid $8M this year.  He's being paid $15M next year.  He is putting up the same per-36 minute numbers as Reggie Evans, who is making $1.7M this year. and even more next year.  In fact, for all intents and purposes he pretty much is a 7 foot Reggie Evans.

Despite all of the above, he believes he is too good to come off the bench.

If you had Asik on your roster for that type of payroll, you would be PAYING teams just to take him off your hands. 

Avery Bradley is a very solid young prospect who is ALREADY better than Asik will ever be.  He is on a measley $2.5M contract that expires after this season.

Kris Humphreys is good enough to be a solid starter or a very good 6th man on a playoff team.  He's already far better than Asik, and he's on a $12M contract that expires after this year.

Why in god's name would you trade two skilled and productive players with legit trade value and $14.5M in expiring contracts...in exchange for a 7'0" Reggie Evans on a multi-year contract (which happens to also be one of the worst contracts in the game).  Oh, and a mid-to-late first rounder...probably would become a future role player at best.

Especially when you are a team that is in a rebuilding phase and your primary goal is clearing cap space and acquiring young talent. 

Imagine another opposing team had two guys on their team who are both < 30 years old, both starting calibre players, and had a combined $15M in expiring contracts attached.  Can you imagine that team giving up those guys in exchange for Gerald Wallace and our Clippers pick?  I think not...

Asik is one of the best defensive/rebounding centers in the league, go look at the stats last year .

Bradley and Hump are both free agents next year, and neither of them is a starting caliber players on championship teams without having dominate players at the pg,sf,c position .

They are role players, and if you resign them, you are not going to have the cap space to get dominate players you need to be a contending team .

So would you rather have a very good defensive center, who would be on an expiring contract and relatively easy to move if it doesn't work out , or an undersized SG who can't create,can't pass , and is a chucker who is only good at shooting from two spots on the floor , and an 8th man in Hump on longterm(3+ years) contract ?

I know what I choose ....

[More Banners]

I don't worry about Asik's actual salary.  That's Wyc's problem.  The cap number and the player are my only concerns, really.

I don't think Bradley is a championship starter, but he'll get paid like one.  Trade him at the deadline.

Of the expirings, I'm willing to take a chance on keeping Hump.  I like him, and he probably won't get a huge offer.  Great guy behind Sully.

Trading Bradley, I keep Green.  And keeping Rondo is a no brainer.

So we have a lineup that looks like

Rondo/Pressey (cheap backup)
_____/Johnson (easy to keep for short $$)
Green/Wallace (stuck with him)
Sully/Hump/
Asik/KO/

Out the door or available are Bass, Bradley, Bogans, future picks (a nice package) and some of that will have to net Asik.

We need an assassin at SG, and that's a team.

[mmmmm]

you don't believe Rondo was a bad defender last year?

He let guys get by him one after another after another (just like how he let Calderon the last game). He takes risks to steal the ball alot of times instead of just staying in front of his man. 

You keep spitting out stats to try to backup your claim. Instead of actually watching the game and even watching the end score.

Without Rondo last year we gave up less points. With pressey starting the last 5 games, we have been a better defensive team. And yes alot of it has to do with Rondo. You let the other pg get through and the wheels falls off for the whole team

1) I watch every single game.  Sometimes more than once.

2) I trust my lying eyes far more than I trust yours.

3) Doc preached a strategy of always guiding attackers to their left hand and into a help defender.   Rondo was a disciple.  This strategy requires others on the team defense to execute (help).   This is what my eyes watched in the games.

4) The stats show that when Rondo was on the floor with veterans who knew what the heck they were supposed to do in picking up rotations behind him, our defense was great.   When he was on the floor with a bunch of newbs who frequently and obviously blew rotations, our defense was bad.

But you go on with your compelling arguments.

don't believe your lying eyes bc the 4th point makes little to no sense

How has this newbie team without Rondo starting the last 4 or 5 games, given up 10-15 points less on avg? 

Could one big reason be Pressey/JB is playing much better defense then Rondo?  Last year , when Rondo went down, how did we give up less points with practially the same lineup left?

You should stop blaming everyone else.

What the heck does my assertion (supported by data) about the 2012-13 season have anything to do with what happened in the last handful of games?

Please try to pay attention.

If I were to comment at all about Rondo's defensive performance in the tiny handful of games since he came back THIS year I would say (1) he's probably going to be rusty and a little slow for awhile (2) in the tiny sample that he's been back, he has suited up for the tougher opponents that we have faced and been rested against some of the easier ones and (3) IT'S A TINY FREAKING SAMPLE!

It is absolutely insane to try to reach for any useful conclusion about Rondo's defense based on the tiny handful of games since he's been back.

 

[mmmmm]

you don't believe Rondo was a bad defender last year?

He let guys get by him one after another after another (just like how he let Calderon the last game). He takes risks to steal the ball alot of times instead of just staying in front of his man. 

You keep spitting out stats to try to backup your claim. Instead of actually watching the game and even watching the end score.

Without Rondo last year we gave up less points. With pressey starting the last 5 games, we have been a better defensive team. And yes alot of it has to do with Rondo. You let the other pg get through and the wheels falls off for the whole team

  I'd guess everyone in this thread watch the games. Most people see things differently from what you're seeing and explain that not only do they disagree with you but the stats (ie unbiased measurement) show that the opposite of what you think is happening actually is.

  Imagine if I was insisting that Jeff Green was the best rebounding SF in the league. Most people would claim that wasn't the case and cite statistics that show him to be a poor rebounder. I could then list some of the rebounds I've seen him get and tell people to ignore stats and watch the game. If they continued to disagree with me I could claim they only look at stats and don't watch games. That's similar to the discussion we seem to be having.

  I don't think anyone's disagreeing that Rondo's defense is fairly poor this year. Most people able to see how this is related to his knee injury and not to his play last season.

Then can you explain why he played poor defense also last season? Before his injury he was healthy

Please go back and read a few comments back in the topic where the relevant defensive data for Rondo last year was posted.  The data was very clear - he didn't play "poor defense" last year.

[mmmmm]

you don't believe Rondo was a bad defender last year?

He let guys get by him one after another after another (just like how he let Calderon the last game). He takes risks to steal the ball alot of times instead of just staying in front of his man. 

You keep spitting out stats to try to backup your claim. Instead of actually watching the game and even watching the end score.

Without Rondo last year we gave up less points. With pressey starting the last 5 games, we have been a better defensive team. And yes alot of it has to do with Rondo. You let the other pg get through and the wheels falls off for the whole team

1) I watch every single game.  Sometimes more than once.

2) I trust my lying eyes far more than I trust yours.

3) Doc preached a strategy of always guiding attackers to their left hand and into a help defender.   Rondo was a disciple.  This strategy requires others on the team defense to execute (help).   This is what my eyes watched in the games.

4) The stats show that when Rondo was on the floor with veterans who knew what the heck they were supposed to do in picking up rotations behind him, our defense was great.   When he was on the floor with a bunch of newbs who frequently and obviously blew rotations, our defense was bad.

But you go on with your compelling arguments.

TP

I watched every game last year, excellent points you made there. The added fact that the roster turnover last year was HUGE, given that there were only 4 healthy players who played in the ECF in 2012 and returned the next year.

Also I'm more inclined to believe the experts who have given Rondo multiple All-team defense selections, because they sure know what they are looking for compared to forum bloggers. His lateral quickness may be horible atm, but he still pushes players to the correct position for help defenders, it's unfortunate that Sully at center can't block a shot to save his life.

What about last year? Why was his defense so poor then?  And why did we play better defense with the same team when he went off due to injuries?

Well as mmmmm pointed out with statistics, our defense was solid with him on the court. Sure i could say with an eye test he was getting beat more on a pick and roll and opting for the steal, but the help defense wasn't there like it had been in the past for him.

Look at the roster last year:

- Wilcox and Green missing a whole year. Do you think that had a positive effect on the teams defense with their conditioning being low?
- Bradley missing the first 2 months or so of the season, then he comes back and 2 weeks later Rondo goes down. He is a great defender, and the fact that he comes back and basically replaces Rondo is going to improve our defense because he is a better defender than Rondo (Also because he had the energy to focus on defense and not run the offense).
- New additions in Lee and Terry. Lee was not a good defender to start the year, and had the pressure of replacing Ray. It didn't work, he got buried on the bench by the end of it, so Lee can take some blame there too. Not to mention Terry is no DPoY either, Ray probably plays better defense than him.

You could look at this as excuses for Rondo, or you could say that these facts impacted the teams defense and made Rondo look bad. I say more so the latter, because Rondo is a proven defender unlike any new player that was brought on that team, and although he may have cheated plays for steals it was under docs instructions.

Good post. But i disagree

AB and Lee were just as good as stealers as Rondo last season. But they still guarded their man and got many steals.

Again with the same exact team

But that (steals) simply isn't what defense is for.  Defense is about preventing points.

And Lee, in particular, was not very good at helping the _team_ prevent points.   Yes, he was pretty good at sticking to his man.

But he was constantly caught being a fan (watching the play) from the off-side of plays instead of making his rotations.

We got burned again and again because he would not react in time to help prevent a weak-side crash by a man freed up by a help rotation.

This was both easily observed if you simply watched the games he played in last year and was blatantly obvious based on the team Drtgs when Lee was on the floor.

Lee got benched by Doc for this reason.

[mmmmm]

Didn't see this posted as a thread, sry if it already has been posted

 http://msn.foxsports.com/ohio/story/nba-beat-raptors-lowry-tops-list-of-potential-trade-pieces-021014


I would probably do a hump, bradley for asik, late 1st trade

I would still trade green if I'm danny, he provides to much scoring for us to tank ...

I can't tell if you are serious, or if that is sarcasm?

Asik is being paid $8M this year.  He's being paid $15M next year.  He is putting up the same per-36 minute numbers as Reggie Evans, who is making $1.7M this year. and even more next year.  In fact, for all intents and purposes he pretty much is a 7 foot Reggie Evans.

Despite all of the above, he believes he is too good to come off the bench.

I am not in favor of the suggested trade, but I think your comparison of Asik with Reggie Evans is about 90 million miles off the mark.

Asik is an elite paint defender who dramatically changes the defensive performance of the units he's played with when he's on the floor.     His defensive impact more than makes up for the limitations of his offense.

He thinks he should be a starter because he was signed by the Rockets to be a starter and he was a [dang] good one last year.

It is not his fault that Dwight decided to leave La-La Land and end up falling into Houston's lap.