Did Danny hire Brad Stevens TOO SOON!!???

[Celtics18]

Considering how atrocious the East looks so far, I'm starting to think that maybe a fourth or a fifth seed in the playoffs might be attainable.  We could avoid having to meet one of the heavyweights (so far only Miami and Indy fit that bill) in the first round. 

I am cautiously upping my expectations from just making the playoffs to making the playoffs and actually winning a round. 

It would be so sweet to make the playoffs and still get our lottery pick from either the Hawks or the Nets.

That's my dream scenario. 

[playdream]

What the heck does BS think he's doing?? We're supposed to be losing game after game to get that big lottery payday, and now we've already got six wins after only 20% of the season, and Rondo hasn't even stepped on the court yet!! We even beat the Heat ON THE ROAD! All this with a bunch of ragtag mismatched parts.
If this keeps up, I think Danny will have to take action, as he sees his grand scheme starting to go astray! Seems like when things are going ok, that's when Danny pulls off a deal and everyone goes "oh, no"--that's a horrible move!
Just a feeling like the Celtic world as it was supposed to be this year is a little off axis, and DA may have to make it right!
BS really seems to be a heck of a coach--but stop winning darn it---we don't want to be a .500ish team--NOT THIS YEAR!!!!

lol.  My man.  I've been screaming thesame thing around here only to be bashed by shortsighted "true celtics fans," who would never root for their team to lose.

Seriously, can someone explain to me what good not being the best and not being the worst is going to do for us?

This should be a race to the bottom. 

Love Brad, tho.

I'm not sure how fans who are not pro tanking plan on winning a championship, it wont be through free agency and it wont be through draft around the 15th pick every year. I've taken a lot of heat for being pro tank but I whenever I ask those who are against it what their plan is to win another championship they usually say to make a big trade, thats fine, but to do that you need high picks and we can't get those without losing as many games as possible.

I understand the concept and get it, but what I don't understand is when some pro tankers think we have to lose every single game. You still need a competitive team once you get that top pick or you'll be a perpetual lottery team that never even sniffs the playoffs let alone win a championship.

This roster was designed to lose games, which they will do. But you can't instill a losing culture into a young team, it's hard to turn that around.

I like that. I believe there is a difference between tanking, and constructing a team to lose. I think they sound similar but different in a lot of ways

Tanking = losing on purpose, and as the above said, you don't want to instill a losing culture into a young team. I like using the Bobcats cuz they have been "tanking" for how long? I think a team like that will end up wasting their lottery player's time, like Kemba Walker. If you don't make playoffs, what is going to stop a Lebron like situation from happening.

I prefer constructing a team to lose. A. you develop players to actually try to win games. B. Those who are part of the future, stays, those who are not but has high value gets shipped out

This idea of a losing culture is something I don't understand, a losing culture is not something that sticks around as long as you have competent management and a good coach, we have both. If you want to use the bobcats as an example look who runs them, MJ cannot evaluate players or lock in on good free agents. I would say look at san antonio when they got duncan, or more recently new orleans with anthony davis, or OKC with durant. Tanking for a year hasnt left a mark on those teams. There arent many sure things in life, losing as many games as possible doesnt garuntee us the 1st overall pick, but it gives us the best chance to be successful in the long run.

Danny knows how to use assets, and Stevens looks like he really knows how to coach, as long as we have those two I dont think theres any chance we develop a "losing culture" thats an excuse for teams with poor GM's who screw up their picks and FA signings.

agreed "losing culture" doesn't really exist, it's just an excuse for poor GM management/evaluation and coaching

[D.o.s.]

What the heck does BS think he's doing?? We're supposed to be losing game after game to get that big lottery payday, and now we've already got six wins after only 20% of the season, and Rondo hasn't even stepped on the court yet!! We even beat the Heat ON THE ROAD! All this with a bunch of ragtag mismatched parts.
If this keeps up, I think Danny will have to take action, as he sees his grand scheme starting to go astray! Seems like when things are going ok, that's when Danny pulls off a deal and everyone goes "oh, no"--that's a horrible move!
Just a feeling like the Celtic world as it was supposed to be this year is a little off axis, and DA may have to make it right!
BS really seems to be a heck of a coach--but stop winning darn it---we don't want to be a .500ish team--NOT THIS YEAR!!!!

6-10 is hardly .500ish.

[PhoSita]

Considering how atrocious the East looks so far, I'm starting to think that maybe a fourth or a fifth seed in the playoffs might be attainable.  We could avoid having to meet one of the heavyweights (so far only Miami and Indy fit that bill) in the first round. 

I am cautiously upping my expectations from just making the playoffs to making the playoffs and actually winning a round. 

It would be so sweet to make the playoffs and still get our lottery pick from either the Hawks or the Nets.

That's my dream scenario.

The word that comes to mind is fiasco.


Yup . . . Google definition: a thing that is a complete failure, esp. in a ludicrous or humiliating way.

Sounds about right.

[Celtics18]

What the heck does BS think he's doing?? We're supposed to be losing game after game to get that big lottery payday, and now we've already got six wins after only 20% of the season, and Rondo hasn't even stepped on the court yet!! We even beat the Heat ON THE ROAD! All this with a bunch of ragtag mismatched parts.
If this keeps up, I think Danny will have to take action, as he sees his grand scheme starting to go astray! Seems like when things are going ok, that's when Danny pulls off a deal and everyone goes "oh, no"--that's a horrible move!
Just a feeling like the Celtic world as it was supposed to be this year is a little off axis, and DA may have to make it right!
BS really seems to be a heck of a coach--but stop winning darn it---we don't want to be a .500ish team--NOT THIS YEAR!!!!

6-10 is hardly .500ish.

I think his point is that this looks like a team that could be .500ish by the end of the season, particularly when you consider that our best player will be returning at some point.

[LooseCannon]

Maybe Danny hired Brad Stevens too late and should have replaced Doc a few years ago.

[Celtics18]

Considering how atrocious the East looks so far, I'm starting to think that maybe a fourth or a fifth seed in the playoffs might be attainable.  We could avoid having to meet one of the heavyweights (so far only Miami and Indy fit that bill) in the first round. 

I am cautiously upping my expectations from just making the playoffs to making the playoffs and actually winning a round. 

It would be so sweet to make the playoffs and still get our lottery pick from either the Hawks or the Nets.

That's my dream scenario.

The word that comes to mind is fiasco.


Yup . . . Google definition: a thing that is a complete failure, esp. in a ludicrous or humiliating way.

Sounds about right.

I don't follow.  Why would that scenario be a fiasco?

[PhoSita]

What the heck does BS think he's doing?? We're supposed to be losing game after game to get that big lottery payday, and now we've already got six wins after only 20% of the season, and Rondo hasn't even stepped on the court yet!! We even beat the Heat ON THE ROAD! All this with a bunch of ragtag mismatched parts.
If this keeps up, I think Danny will have to take action, as he sees his grand scheme starting to go astray! Seems like when things are going ok, that's when Danny pulls off a deal and everyone goes "oh, no"--that's a horrible move!
Just a feeling like the Celtic world as it was supposed to be this year is a little off axis, and DA may have to make it right!
BS really seems to be a heck of a coach--but stop winning darn it---we don't want to be a .500ish team--NOT THIS YEAR!!!!

6-10 is hardly .500ish.

I think his point is that this looks like a team that could be .500ish by the end of the season, particularly when you consider that our best player will be returning at some point.

I'll put it this way -- if we played teams like Orlando, Milwaukee, Charlotte, and Atlanta every night, I'd agree with you.  The Celtics could easily finish around .500 in that scenario.

But over the course of an entire season I think this team is going to drop a lot of games to teams in the upper two thirds of the league, while only managing to win roughly half of their games against everybody else.

Rondo's return might give them a better chance against the more talented teams, but I'm not sure that Rondo is going to be an immediate boon to this team, and I also believe that Danny will be a seller at the deadline.

[PhoSita]

Considering how atrocious the East looks so far, I'm starting to think that maybe a fourth or a fifth seed in the playoffs might be attainable.  We could avoid having to meet one of the heavyweights (so far only Miami and Indy fit that bill) in the first round. 

I am cautiously upping my expectations from just making the playoffs to making the playoffs and actually winning a round. 

It would be so sweet to make the playoffs and still get our lottery pick from either the Hawks or the Nets.

That's my dream scenario.

The word that comes to mind is fiasco.


Yup . . . Google definition: a thing that is a complete failure, esp. in a ludicrous or humiliating way.

Sounds about right.

I don't follow.  Why would that scenario be a fiasco?

Because if we had wanted to be a middling playoff team destined for a first round massacre, we could have just held onto Pierce and Garnett and avoided the gnashing of teeth that came with that trade.

We'd get a mediocre pick in one of the most loaded drafts in recent memory, and the only real reward we'd get for it would be to see our team of misfit toys and unproven youngsters get swept out of the first round. 

A 4th or 5th seed could not possibly mean less this season in what is truly a joke of a conference.  Meanwhile, whatever gains the Celtics might get in terms of playoff experience for the players on the team is entirely offset by the fact that this roster is almost sure to be drastically overturned over the next 2-3 seasons. 

Getting destroyed by a legitimate team in four straight games might not even be a positive thing for the confidence of the younger players, either.


I can just imagine the inane chortling of Felger -- "They can't even tank the right way!  What pick did they end up with?  #18?  Bahahaha!  Hope it was worth it!"

[Celtics18]

What the heck does BS think he's doing?? We're supposed to be losing game after game to get that big lottery payday, and now we've already got six wins after only 20% of the season, and Rondo hasn't even stepped on the court yet!! We even beat the Heat ON THE ROAD! All this with a bunch of ragtag mismatched parts.
If this keeps up, I think Danny will have to take action, as he sees his grand scheme starting to go astray! Seems like when things are going ok, that's when Danny pulls off a deal and everyone goes "oh, no"--that's a horrible move!
Just a feeling like the Celtic world as it was supposed to be this year is a little off axis, and DA may have to make it right!
BS really seems to be a heck of a coach--but stop winning darn it---we don't want to be a .500ish team--NOT THIS YEAR!!!!

6-10 is hardly .500ish.

I think his point is that this looks like a team that could be .500ish by the end of the season, particularly when you consider that our best player will be returning at some point.

I'll put it this way -- if we played teams like Orlando, Milwaukee, Charlotte, and Atlanta every night, I'd agree with you.  The Celtics could easily finish around .500 in that scenario.

But over the course of an entire season I think this team is going to drop a lot of games to teams in the upper two thirds of the league, while only managing to win roughly half of their games against everybody else.

Rondo's return might give them a better chance against the more talented teams, but I'm not sure that Rondo is going to be an immediate boon to this team, and I also believe that Danny will be a seller at the deadline.

I don't understand the thinking behind the bolded statement.  Surely, if Rondo gives a better chance against the more talented teams, he will give us a better chance against all the teams. 

Personally, I don't think it's far-fetched to believe that this team as constituted is a .500 or slightly above team with the addition of Rondo. 

You say that you think Ainge will be a "seller" at the deadline.  I am wondering what you think he will be looking to get back on those sales?  Are you implying that he will be selling off players with the sole or primary purpose of getting worse in the short term?

[Celtics18]

Considering how atrocious the East looks so far, I'm starting to think that maybe a fourth or a fifth seed in the playoffs might be attainable.  We could avoid having to meet one of the heavyweights (so far only Miami and Indy fit that bill) in the first round. 

I am cautiously upping my expectations from just making the playoffs to making the playoffs and actually winning a round. 

It would be so sweet to make the playoffs and still get our lottery pick from either the Hawks or the Nets.

That's my dream scenario.

The word that comes to mind is fiasco.


Yup . . . Google definition: a thing that is a complete failure, esp. in a ludicrous or humiliating way.

Sounds about right.

I don't follow.  Why would that scenario be a fiasco?

Because if we had wanted to be a middling playoff team destined for a first round massacre, we could have just held onto Pierce and Garnett and avoided the gnashing of teeth that came with that trade.

We'd get a mediocre pick in one of the most loaded drafts in recent memory, and the only real reward we'd get for it would be to see our team of misfit toys and unproven youngsters get swept out of the first round. 

A 4th or 5th seed could not possibly mean less this season in what is truly a joke of a conference.  Meanwhile, whatever gains the Celtics might get in terms of playoff experience for the players on the team is entirely offset by the fact that this roster is almost sure to be drastically overturned over the next 2-3 seasons. 

Getting destroyed by a legitimate team in four straight games might not even be a positive thing for the confidence of the younger players, either.


I can just imagine the inane chortling of Felger -- "They can't even tank the right way!  What pick did they end up with?  #18?  Bahahaha!  Hope it was worth it!"

The chortling of Felger is the least of my concerns.  I make it a point never to listen to him.

I happen to think that we may have more keepers on this team than you imagine. 

Also, I never said anything about "getting destroyed by a legitimate team in four straight games."  I don't see that happening, not with a player who is as capable of playoff brilliance as Rajon Rondo. 

[PhoSita]

Personally, I don't think it's far-fetched to believe that this team as constituted is a .500 or slightly above team with the addition of Rondo. 

You say that you think Ainge will be a "seller" at the deadline.  I am wondering what you think he will be looking to get back on those sales?  Are you implying that he will be selling off players with the sole or primary purpose of getting worse in the short term?

1. Re: Rondo

It is well established that it takes players up to a year once they've returned from a knee injury to get back to where they were prior to the injury.  So I think it's reasonable to expect that Rondo is not immediately going to be quite the star-caliber player he has been.

On top of that, I think that Rondo's return will force the team to adjust to playing off of Rondo instead of playing their current style, which involves a more egalitarian approach on offense.  A number of the players currently in the rotation have never played with Rondo before, so there won't be any chemistry there at all to begin with.  That will take time. 

Rondo's return will force some players who are currently doing quite well to change roles.  How well will Crawford play once he's forced back into a reserve role?  Will Avery still have such confidence offensively when he doesn't have the chance to take so many dribble pull-ups from mid-range?  Where will Lee fit in?  What impact will Wallace make now that his point-forward role is not as necessary?

Furthermore, I view Rondo as the type of player whose ceiling is raised or lowered depending on the players that surround him.  His passing options will be limited on this team with an utter lack of elite finishers.  Sullinger is the only thing approaching a reliable offensive option.  Green comes to mind, but Green has actually been worse playing off Rondo in the past.

In any case, I think it's far from a foregone conclusion that the team is suddenly going to get better as soon as Rondo returns.


2. Re: Seller Danny


I believe Danny should (and will) look to trade Bass, Lee and Crawford to any team that will give up a second round pick and / or an end-of-the-rotation young player plus an expiring contract or two.  I'd add Wallace, but unless it's for an even bigger and more putrid contract, I don't see anybody in the league trading for him.

Bass especially has played quite well this season, and there will be teams that could use his services.  I think the opportunity to sell high will be there, and I expect Danny to take it.

Significant return value not necessary; it's all about clearing the deck, for cap purposes and also to free up playing time for young guys.

[D.o.s.]

What the heck does BS think he's doing?? We're supposed to be losing game after game to get that big lottery payday, and now we've already got six wins after only 20% of the season, and Rondo hasn't even stepped on the court yet!! We even beat the Heat ON THE ROAD! All this with a bunch of ragtag mismatched parts.
If this keeps up, I think Danny will have to take action, as he sees his grand scheme starting to go astray! Seems like when things are going ok, that's when Danny pulls off a deal and everyone goes "oh, no"--that's a horrible move!
Just a feeling like the Celtic world as it was supposed to be this year is a little off axis, and DA may have to make it right!
BS really seems to be a heck of a coach--but stop winning darn it---we don't want to be a .500ish team--NOT THIS YEAR!!!!

6-10 is hardly .500ish.

I think his point is that this looks like a team that could be .500ish by the end of the season, particularly when you consider that our best player will be returning at some point.

If Rondo's return can help this team to the same record we had last year, I'll be very surprised.

On the other hand, the early conference returns are looking really awful right now. We might end up winning our division with 26.

[fairweatherfan]

Considering how atrocious the East looks so far, I'm starting to think that maybe a fourth or a fifth seed in the playoffs might be attainable.  We could avoid having to meet one of the heavyweights (so far only Miami and Indy fit that bill) in the first round. 

I am cautiously upping my expectations from just making the playoffs to making the playoffs and actually winning a round. 

It would be so sweet to make the playoffs and still get our lottery pick from either the Hawks or the Nets.

That's my dream scenario.

The word that comes to mind is fiasco.


Yup . . . Google definition: a thing that is a complete failure, esp. in a ludicrous or humiliating way.

Sounds about right.

I don't follow.  Why would that scenario be a fiasco?

Because if we had wanted to be a middling playoff team destined for a first round massacre, we could have just held onto Pierce and Garnett and avoided the gnashing of teeth that came with that trade.

We'd get a mediocre pick in one of the most loaded drafts in recent memory, and the only real reward we'd get for it would be to see our team of misfit toys and unproven youngsters get swept out of the first round. 

Uh, that and the 4 extra 1sts and the right-to-swap we got from the KG/PP and Doc deals. 

Bottoming out this year is probably ideal, but suggesting that being mediocre instead makes the trade pointless is ignoring all the valuable future assets we got.

[Celtics18]

Personally, I don't think it's far-fetched to believe that this team as constituted is a .500 or slightly above team with the addition of Rondo. 

You say that you think Ainge will be a "seller" at the deadline.  I am wondering what you think he will be looking to get back on those sales?  Are you implying that he will be selling off players with the sole or primary purpose of getting worse in the short term?

1. Re: Rondo

It is well established that it takes players up to a year once they've returned from a knee injury to get back to where they were prior to the injury.  So I think it's reasonable to expect that Rondo is not immediately going to be quite the star-caliber player he has been.

On top of that, I think that Rondo's return will force the team to adjust to playing off of Rondo instead of playing their current style, which involves a more egalitarian approach on offense.  A number of the players currently in the rotation have never played with Rondo before, so there won't be any chemistry there at all to begin with.  That will take time. 

Rondo's return will force some players who are currently doing quite well to change roles.  How well will Crawford play once he's forced back into a reserve role?  Will Avery still have such confidence offensively when he doesn't have the chance to take so many dribble pull-ups from mid-range?  Where will Lee fit in?  What impact will Wallace make now that his point-forward role is not as necessary?

Furthermore, I view Rondo as the type of player whose ceiling is raised or lowered depending on the players that surround him.  His passing options will be limited on this team with an utter lack of elite finishers.  Sullinger is the only thing approaching a reliable offensive option.  Green comes to mind, but Green has actually been worse playing off Rondo in the past.

In any case, I think it's far from a foregone conclusion that the team is suddenly going to get better as soon as Rondo returns.


2. Re: Seller Danny


I believe Danny should (and will) look to trade Bass, Lee and Crawford to any team that will give up a second round pick and / or an end-of-the-rotation young player plus an expiring contract or two.  I'd add Wallace, but unless it's for an even bigger and more putrid contract, I don't see anybody in the league trading for him.

Bass especially has played quite well this season, and there will be teams that could use his services.  I think the opportunity to sell high will be there, and I expect Danny to take it.

Significant return value not necessary; it's all about clearing the deck, for cap purposes and also to free up playing time for young guys.

Re: Rondo

It takes players "up to a year" to return to form?  So, that could be within two or three weeks, depending on how well they respond, right?


I happen to think that this roster is full of guys who will benefit from having a primary ball handler to take the pressure off them.  We have one of the very worst assist to turnover ratios in the league.  Rondo's return should up those numbers to respectability, which I think will do wonders for the offense.

Avery Bradley played the best basketball of his short career as a two guard next to Rondo.  Having the ball in his hand to create his own offense is not his best role.  I thought everybody was in agreement on that.  Lee is a prototypical off the ball player, as well.  I contend that Gerald will be much more effective alongside Rondo as well.  His job will be to get in passing lanes, create havoc, and run.  He will be rewarded.  I'm sure Jordan will lose minutes, but hopefully he will be able to stay effective as a scoring back up to Rondo. 


Also, I believe that Stevens has kept Rondo in mind while creating this offense.  Rondo's return will help the running game, which looks like it is one of Stevens' main focuses.  The strategy to have the bigs spread the floor to beyond the three point line will open up the lane for a player like Rondo and make it even easier for him to pick defenses apart. 

In short, this team is clamoring for a player like Rondo right now, someone who can get into the lane and create offense, making it easier for everybody else.

Re: Seller Danny

Crawford is an expiring contract.  I don't see what trading him in for another expiring contract saves us.

Bass expires after the following season.

Lee is locked up for three seasons including this one, but his contract is hardly going to represent an albatross at about $5million a year. 

I'm not saying Danny shouldn't or won't make any moves, but I don't see it as anything approaching a necessity in the immediate future.  If the right deal comes make it, but there's no need to make trades just for the sake of getting rid of guys.