Sullinger Arrested in Domestic Incident

[Roy H.]

She could just as easily have lied, or been pinned because she was trying to attack or kill him, or blah, blah, blah ... the conjecture goes on and on. But please, can we give a member of the Celtics the same consideration and benefit of the doubt that EVERY American is guaranteed under the laws of this great country?!?

Statistically this isn't accurate.

Edit: To clarify, statistically, across all reported cases of domestic violence, the odds of her lying are pretty small. I don't know how it compares to people in a certain income bracket, or a not athletes, but just before we go saying its 'just as likely', it's not. It is possible, but it's not just as likely.

I'd be curious to read whatever it is that you're citing.  I'm assuming that the criminal justice system of Maine isn't all that unique, and I see people lying in domestic violence situations quite frequently.  Heck, it happens so often that the legislature has made falsely accusing somebody of domestic violence a factor in child custody determinations.

I'll have her get me some links tomorrow. You have a lot more experience here than I do, but from what I've read and what I've heard in presentations and the like (an unfortunate necessity as the trophy husband here), I've gone from 'its just as likely that she's lying' to 'yeah that happens, but it's not anything close to the norm'.

Im not saying Sullinger is guilty or not guilty, and Im literally wearing his jersey right now so it's not like I think that there is no need for a trial to presume him guilty, Im just saying that a statement like 'its just as likely that she's lying' is incorrect, if you look at domestic violence as a spectrum. It's a dangerous preconception in my mind that dissuades women who are in real danger from trying to get away from it.

I don't know what the domestic violence organizations look like in Northern NY, but our local DV agencies would never concede that a "victim" would ever lie.  Heck, I had the head of an anti-batterers group testify under oath that my client was a "sexual abuser" because he liked to get the last word in in arguments with his wife and because he pleaded with his wife to get out of bed at 2pm in the afternoon to help with the kids.

Up here, there's been a radicalization of domestic violence support groups.  I'm sure they could cite lots of studies making all men out to be abusive pigs.  However, I'm doubtful of the veracity of those studies, no matter how earnestly some may believe it.

Like I said, I'm not sure where along the spectrum your wife's agency falls, and I'm interested to read the studies and links you're talking about.  From my experience, though, lying in domestic violence cases is very, very frequent.  There's a huge incentive to do so:  it basically automatically gives somebody possession of the couples' home and custody of their children on an interim basis.  That's a huge, huge power card, and lots of people play it.  Heck, lots of less scrupulous attorneys encourage their clients to fabricate or exaggerate altercations so they can file an order of protection.  Even outside of those fact patterns, there are the "victims" who simply lie to get their partners in trouble during an argument.

[indeedproceed]

Up here, there's been a radicalization of domestic violence support groups.  I'm sure they could cite lots of studies making all men out to be abusive pigs.  However, I'm doubtful of the veracity of those studies, no matter how earnestly some may believe it.

I think that's par for the course, a DV agency has to assume their charges are telling the truth (and my wife's agency provides aid in the form of housing, help with rent, baby sitting, etc..and when that's on the table, some career gamers of the system are bound to come calling).

But to the point of making all men out to be abusive pigs, that's not been my experience at all. The abusers are certainly trash, but well..that's cuz they are. But wholesale sexism or really reverse misogyny is closer to what you're describing isn't something I've encountered, and that's not a sentiment Id let pass. Her agency represents male victims as well as female, and advertises that.

DV is messy all around (and we're rapidly running away from Mr Sullinger with these statements the more general we get, so maybe we shouldn't veer too far here), but I find it unlikely that potential victims lie about the nature of encounters more than alledged abusers, who (when the alternative is copping to actual abuse, not refuting lies about abuse by telling the truth) have much, much more to gain by lying.

Then you look at the dynamic between abuser and victim, and it's frequent the case that the abuser is gifted in manipulation and is actually quite charming when they're not ruining someone's life.

But again, Im not saying accusers don't lie, and conspiracies for money grabs or advantages in custody cases don't happen, just that from what I've read and heard, it's not a 'just as likely' situation.

[Bahku]

She could just as easily have lied, or been pinned because she was trying to attack or kill him, or blah, blah, blah ... the conjecture goes on and on. But please, can we give a member of the Celtics the same consideration and benefit of the doubt that EVERY American is guaranteed under the laws of this great country?!?

Statistically this isn't accurate.

Edit: To clarify, statistically, across all reported cases of domestic violence, the odds of her lying are pretty small. I don't know how it compares to people in a certain income bracket, or a not athletes, but just before we go saying its 'just as likely', it's not. It is possible, but it's not just as likely.

I'd be curious to read whatever it is that you're citing.  I'm assuming that the criminal justice system of Maine isn't all that unique, and I see people lying in domestic violence situations quite frequently.  Heck, it happens so often that the legislature has made falsely accusing somebody of domestic violence a factor in child custody determinations.

I'll have her get me some links tomorrow. You have a lot more experience here than I do, but from what I've read and what I've heard in presentations and the like (an unfortunate necessity as the trophy husband here), I've gone from 'its just as likely that she's lying' to 'yeah that happens, but it's not anything close to the norm'.

Im not saying Sullinger is guilty or not guilty, and Im literally wearing his jersey right now so it's not like I think that there is no need for a trial to presume him guilty, Im just saying that a statement like 'its just as likely that she's lying' is incorrect, if you look at domestic violence as a spectrum. It's a dangerous preconception in my mind that dissuades women who are in real danger from trying to get away from it.

I didn't say "she just as likely lied", as in comparing statistics, (cuz I honestly have no idea what the statistics are in such situations, nor does it really matter), I said "she could just as easily have lied", meaning human nature is just as apt to go in that direction.

But again, it matters not, because he's still entitled to the benefit of the doubt via the law, (innocent until proven guilty), which also isn't flawless, but it's the best we have. Semantics, I guess, but it doesn't change the point I was trying to get across..

[Roy H.]

DV is messy all around (and we're rapidly running away from Mr Sullinger with these statements the more general we get, so maybe we shouldn't veer too far here), but I find it unlikely that potential victims lie about the nature of encounters more than alledged abusers, who (when the alternative is copping to actual abuse, not refuting lies about abuse by telling the truth) have much, much more to gain by lying.

Oh, there's no doubt that actual abusers lie.  I don't think I've met a criminal yet that doesn't lie, minimize, or play the victim.

In domestic violence cases, though, I think that accusers lie / fabricate / exaggerate at a much higher frequency than in any other type of criminal case I handle regularly. 

So, like I said, I'll wait and see with Sully.

[indeedproceed]

I didn't say "she just as likely lied", as in comparing statistics, (cuz I honestly have no idea what the statistics are in such situations, nor does it really matter), I said "she could just as easily have lied", meaning human nature is just as apt to go in that direction.

I understood that, but you're basing that on human nature, as in all humans. Im saying that it's actually not just as likely, if you're looking at all humans in DV cases. Im fully in favor of withholding judgement, as my Sullinger jersey supports, Im saying that your generalization isn't an accurate one, at least according to my own experience with the topic.

It's a nitpicky disagreement, but if every time a woman actually caught in the cyclic web of abuse finds the courage to come forward she's greeted with 'its just as likely she's lying', I think that's a pretty dangerous and irresponsible road to go down.

[Bahku]

I didn't say "she just as likely lied", as in comparing statistics, (cuz I honestly have no idea what the statistics are in such situations, nor does it really matter), I said "she could just as easily have lied", meaning human nature is just as apt to go in that direction.

I understood that, but you're basing that on human nature, as in all humans. Im saying that it's actually not just as likely, if you're looking at all humans in DV cases. Im fully in favor of withholding judgement, as my Sullinger jersey supports, Im saying that your generalization isn't an accurate one, at least according to my own experience with the topic.

It's a nitpicky disagreement, but if every time a woman actually caught in the cyclic web of abuse finds the courage to come forward she's greeted with 'its just as likely she's lying', I think that's a pretty dangerous and irresponsible road to go down.

I absolutely agree about women coming forward, and it takes a lot of courage to do so when it's true, but it's also just as dangerous to assume in these cases that every man accused of abuse is guilty ... I'm saying assumption is wrong, in ANY direction, favoring either side. I was responding to those bashing Sully under the assumption he's guilty, and it's just plain wrong to do so, as wrong as it is to assume the woman is lying.

[Adelaide Celt]

Sullinger you bloody idiot

[mmmmm]

I didn't say "she just as likely lied", as in comparing statistics, (cuz I honestly have no idea what the statistics are in such situations, nor does it really matter), I said "she could just as easily have lied", meaning human nature is just as apt to go in that direction.

I understood that, but you're basing that on human nature, as in all humans. Im saying that it's actually not just as likely, if you're looking at all humans in DV cases. Im fully in favor of withholding judgement, as my Sullinger jersey supports, Im saying that your generalization isn't an accurate one, at least according to my own experience with the topic.

It's a nitpicky disagreement, but if every time a woman actually caught in the cyclic web of abuse finds the courage to come forward she's greeted with 'its just as likely she's lying', I think that's a pretty dangerous and irresponsible road to go down.

This seems like a completely irrelevant track.

The statistical percentage rate at which accusers in some other prior sample of DV cases lied or told the truth is pretty much irrelevant to the point of Sullinger's guilt or innocence.  Only the facts of THIS particular case are relevant to that.

Let the process work through the actual evidence.  There are two many unknowns at this point and too many possible stories that can fit the few bits that are known.

[indeedproceed]

I didn't say "she just as likely lied", as in comparing statistics, (cuz I honestly have no idea what the statistics are in such situations, nor does it really matter), I said "she could just as easily have lied", meaning human nature is just as apt to go in that direction.

I understood that, but you're basing that on human nature, as in all humans. Im saying that it's actually not just as likely, if you're looking at all humans in DV cases. Im fully in favor of withholding judgement, as my Sullinger jersey supports, Im saying that your generalization isn't an accurate one, at least according to my own experience with the topic.

It's a nitpicky disagreement, but if every time a woman actually caught in the cyclic web of abuse finds the courage to come forward she's greeted with 'its just as likely she's lying', I think that's a pretty dangerous and irresponsible road to go down.

This seems like a completely irrelevant track.

The statistical percentage rate at which accusers in some other prior sample of DV cases lied or told the truth is pretty much irrelevant to the point of Sullinger's guilt or innocence.  Only the facts of THIS particular case are relevant to that.

Let the process work through the actual evidence.  There are two many unknowns at this point and too many possible stories that can fit the few bits that are known.

I think it's irrelevant in the context you phrase it. But that wasn't the discussion we were having.

[LatterDayCelticsfan]

Fighting the temptation to write a tasteless post about Sullinger and fouling out

[LooseCannon]

Fighting the temptation to write a tasteless post about Sullinger and fouling out

If Sullinger ever gives mild contact that doesn't prevent a "and one" when he should be delivering a hard foul in the paint, who's going to yell at Sullinger to treat the opposing player like a woman?

[tyrone biggums]

Unless these charges get dropped altogether, the clock should be ticking on him to go.  Too bad.  Didnt the Red Sox sign a guy a few years back with a history of DV and he was probably the most hated local athlete at the time?  To its credit, the city doesnt tolerate scumbag behavior from its sports stars very well.  Bad timing for this with the Hernandez stuff not too far behind either.

Hernandez and Sullinger are comparing apples to oranges. You don't let a young kid with one slip up (it's a big one, granted) go. Lets not even get into Hernandez's rap sheet from college with the drugs and other infractions that Meyer and Gator Nation probably helped cover up. See if he learns from it and if he doesn't then cut him. Didn't DJ have a whole list of priors before coming to the Celtics? He turned out alright I think...

[nickagneta]

She could just as easily have lied, or been pinned because she was trying to attack or kill him, or blah, blah, blah ... the conjecture goes on and on. But please, can we give a member of the Celtics the same consideration and benefit of the doubt that EVERY American is guaranteed under the laws of this great country?!?

Statistically this isn't accurate.

Edit: To clarify, statistically, across all reported cases of domestic violence, the odds of her lying are pretty small. I don't know how it compares to people in a certain income bracket, or a not athletes, but just before we go saying its 'just as likely', it's not. It is possible, but it's not just as likely.

I'd be curious to read whatever it is that you're citing.  I'm assuming that the criminal justice system of Maine isn't all that unique, and I see people lying in domestic violence situations quite frequently.  Heck, it happens so often that the legislature has made falsely accusing somebody of domestic violence a factor in child custody determinations.

My wife was in DV advocacy for a decade. I can confirm what IP is stating.

Now I am not sure if those studies include cases that start out as custody cases in divorce court where a person then claims DV without ever having filed a police report. But the study is based on police reports of initial calls for DV where the police created a report and investigated the situation due specifically because of DV.

Also take into consideration that enforcement of DV laws vary from city to city, town to town, and at times, from police officer to police officer. My wife literally saw various police officers reprimanded for not properly reporting, following procedure, or making arrests in DV cases because of old school attitude regarding the thought that DV is just a domestic disturbance between people and isn't a crime. So many DV cases never make it to court in those cases. Also, cases won't make it to court when the victim has battered victim syndrome and doesn't want to report the spouse because they have been brainwashed into thinking they did something wrong to cause the situation. They think they deserved the beating. Many times without the victim's cooperation, the DA has no case.

Then there's DV in areas where the people involved are not citizens and won't report or file charges for fear of deportation, or because abuse is common place in their country and no laws exist in their country for such things so they believe it the right and natural thing to be abused. Most of these cases never see the inside of a court.

So the study probably has a raft of data that you necessarily would never see being a defense lawyer Roy. And maybe this is true and maybe its not but my guess is that most guys that need to get a defense lawyer for DV, aren't always 100% truthful with their lawyers about how things went down.

[Roy H.]

She could just as easily have lied, or been pinned because she was trying to attack or kill him, or blah, blah, blah ... the conjecture goes on and on. But please, can we give a member of the Celtics the same consideration and benefit of the doubt that EVERY American is guaranteed under the laws of this great country?!?

Statistically this isn't accurate.

Edit: To clarify, statistically, across all reported cases of domestic violence, the odds of her lying are pretty small. I don't know how it compares to people in a certain income bracket, or a not athletes, but just before we go saying its 'just as likely', it's not. It is possible, but it's not just as likely.

I'd be curious to read whatever it is that you're citing.  I'm assuming that the criminal justice system of Maine isn't all that unique, and I see people lying in domestic violence situations quite frequently.  Heck, it happens so often that the legislature has made falsely accusing somebody of domestic violence a factor in child custody determinations.

My wife was in DV advocacy for a decade. I can confirm what IP is stating.

Now I am not sure if those studies include cases that start out as custody cases in divorce court where a person then claims DV without ever having filed a police report. But the study is based on police reports of initial calls for DV where the police created a report and investigated the situation due specifically because of DV.

Also take into consideration that enforcement of DV laws vary from city to city, town to town, and at times, from police officer to police officer. My wife literally saw various police officers reprimanded for not properly reporting, following procedure, or making arrests in DV cases because of old school attitude regarding the thought that DV is just a domestic disturbance between people and isn't a crime. So many DV cases never make it to court especially when the victim has battered victim syndrome and doesn't want to report the spouse because they have been brainwashed into thinking they did something wrong to cause the situation. They think they deserved the beating. many times without the victim's cooperation, the DA has no case.

Then there's DV in areas where the people involved are not citizens and won't report or file charges for fear of deportation, or because abuse is common place in their country and no laws exist in their country for such things so they believe it the right and natural thing to be abuse. Most of these cases never see the inside of a court.

I want to read those studies for myself.  IP said something like the studies show that the alleged domestic violence incidents aren't completely made up (i.e., "proven to be completely unfounded or fabricated").  So, if somebody is charged with felony domestic violence that is fabricated, and he pleads down to disorderly conduct because he'd rather pay a $250 fine than risk his fate with a jury, that means the case, in the eyes of the study, had validity.  That's just not an accurate take on the situation.

What I unfortunately see is a combination of what we're both talking about.  The chronically-abused victims are still very hesitant to come forward, and will often retract their statements and make prosecution extremely difficult.  At the same time, there are a lot of accusers who use the system to their advantage, and make up / exaggerate situations for their own advantage.

[cltc5]

Have to say it, because it's rampant and it's wrong and it's what incites a flood of negativity and animosity against people in similar situations: As far as I know, there is NO ONE here who knows the facts of this case, and all of these negative statements about Jared are being made under assumptions, and it really, really gets to me.

There has been a statement made from the District Atorney's office, (which is obvious in it's bias), a statement by Sully and the Celtics, some tweets, and a bunch of unverified and unproven conjecture. How in the name of anything worthwhile can you hang this guy without knowing the full story?!?

You can't ... no one can.

It may all be very true, and the guy may be completely guilty here, but domestic violence is so rampant because it involves the greatest amount of emotion, and where love, jealousy, anger, retribution, and hatred are involved, (along with money), you simply can NOT assume anything and and expect to be taken seriously.

She could just as easily have lied, or been pinned because she was trying to attack or kill him, or blah, blah, blah ... the conjecture goes on and on. But please, can we give a member of the Celtics the same consideration and benefit of the doubt that EVERY American is guaranteed under the laws of this great country?!?

Come on, this membership is better than that ... let's take the high road here, and wait for the facts/evidence/conviction before we nail this guy up and destroy his character, and not make fools of ourselves with assumption and gossip. Or, if you already have some verifiable proof of his guilt that we haven't seen yet, please provide it.

Well said.  Look, My ex wife and I got into a physical altercation one time.  And that's the only time i ever got physical with a woman.  Unfortunately, in relationships it happens. Does that now make me a monster or scum of the earth?  Let it up to some people around here  it would but then I'm sure they have no skeletons in their closets .  Point is, Sully has not bad history of offensives like this or any other agregious acts that we know of.  The man had the decency to admit his srongdoing and face the shame and so called "human beings" on here dont wanna give him a second chance?  Pathetic and Shameful on you!  God help you if you're ever in a similar situation.  Like Terrance Williams, he made a mistake, and that in no way is any reason to disown the guy.  Trade?  Release?  LOL!  Some of you are daft in the head.