Fire Doc

[Tgro]

On the flip side, we've seen the same weaknesses over and over.  The offense has generally not been good, and is entirely predictable.  We've seen the team get gassed out and collapse in the fourth quarter repeatedly. Losing the 2010 NBA Finals and the 2012 Eastern Conference Finals having led both series 3-2 were critical losses.   Throw in the Magic series in 2009 (albeit w/o Garnett) and that's three playoff series where the Celtics have lost having lead 3-2.  As coach, Doc Rivers has to be held accountable for much of that.

Those are successes as much as they are failures. In 2010, we were supposed to lose to the Cavaliers and the Magic and we beat them both. We were supposed to be gone long before the Finals and we got 6 minutes away from a title.

Did anybody really think we were supposed to beat the Heat last year? We came minutes away from making it to the Finals.

We've outperformed for a few years now. Everyone has been saying this team shouldn't have gotten as far as it did. KG and Pierce got older each year. Rondo was the X-Factor that got us close and KG and Pierce still had enough to make a difference. Each year, our supporting cast got a little more depleted. As much as this says Doc is to blame, Doc shined.

This year, no Ray, Rondo gone, KG gimpy and increasingly unable to perform as he used to even with rest, Pierce not bringing his usual game night after night, and a supporting cast that wouldn't get any team far unless we had all those things other guys going and they were on their A-game too.

I keep thinking it would be different if Doc had elite talent and healthy players and the team played this way, then yeah...go ahead and Fire Doc. I agree. But you should be able to see this team has been ridden like an old race horse as far as it can go and NO COACH was going to take this years team very far. Time is up on the team! It's time for Danny Ainge to bring us some good, fresh players again. It's time to rebuild. People act like we should win it all every year. Stop. This team had a heck of a run. I wouldn't miss out on the experience for nothing. They were grizzled vets who fought extremely hard. This year, they just ain't got nothing left. 

And if we Fire Doc, who we gonna get??? Seriously? Who are we gonna get? You see some of these teams going through coaches looking for some kind of spiritual magic healer and they are what their cast is and nothing more? They just don't have an awesome coach farm we can go cherry pick from and make this team better right away. People just need to face that it's just time to rebuild.   

[BballTim]

Rivers is terrible. The 08 team would have won no matter who was at the helm. We were stacked. Look at what Pop has done with the spurs in a similar circumstances with a aging
group.

  Have the Spurs outperformed the Celts in *any* of the past 5 playoffs?

[Pucaccia]

Rivers is terrible. The 08 team would have won no matter who was at the helm. We were stacked. Look at what Pop has done with the spurs in a similar circumstances with a aging
group.

This team is totally lost on offense and the rotations are different every night.  Terry and Lee confidence is totally shot. Doc has done a exceptionally poor job this year but...

I agree with everything you state. I do like Doc and I know players like to play for him, but...
1. Before the new big three, even though they had young players, they never looked like they were improving.
2. I agree, I could have coached the team in 08.
3. His biggest in game adjustment is "play defense".
4. After Rondo went down, his starting line up was Lee, AB, PP, KG, Bass and they went on a run that was very impressive. "What happened to that?"
5. Most of the year, players just look lost. Very Lost.

[ScottHow]

I like how before the big 3 doc sucked and didn't know what he was doing, then he became a great coach overnight, now he sucks again, lol.

[The Rondo Show]

No Thibs no success

[TheTruth34]

On the flip side, we've seen the same weaknesses over and over.  The offense has generally not been good, and is entirely predictable.  We've seen the team get gassed out and collapse in the fourth quarter repeatedly. Losing the 2010 NBA Finals and the 2012 Eastern Conference Finals having led both series 3-2 were critical losses.   Throw in the Magic series in 2009 (albeit w/o Garnett) and that's three playoff series where the Celtics have lost having lead 3-2.  As coach, Doc Rivers has to be held accountable for much of that.

Those are successes as much as they are failures. In 2010, we were supposed to lose to the Cavaliers and the Magic and we beat them both. We were supposed to be gone long before the Finals and we got 6 minutes away from a title.

Did anybody really think we were supposed to beat the Heat last year? We came minutes away from making it to the Finals.

We've outperformed for a few years now. Everyone has been saying this team shouldn't have gotten as far as it did. KG and Pierce got older each year. Rondo was the X-Factor that got us close and KG and Pierce still had enough to make a difference. Each year, our supporting cast got a little more depleted. As much as this says Doc is to blame, Doc shined. 

I'm not necessarily advocating for Doc's firing.  I do think he's best served when he has a strong coordinator presence like Tom Thibodeau or Lawrence Frank.

As for 2010, I guess we see it differently.  Not a believer in the whole "supposed to lose" argument, that is mostly media-driven.  I think that the 2010 team could have (and should have) won the title. I get that KG was not 100%, but that team operated throughout the regular season with the proverbial "turn on the switch" mode.  Rasheed Wallace pretty obviously took games off and you could see that attitude permeate across the team, particularly Rondo.  Doc rationalized the regular season with "we chose health" theme.  Ultimately, that team should have pushed for home court advantage in a relatively weak Eastern Conference.  Having home court over the Lakers (who won 57 games in the tougher conference) probably would have resulted in #18.

I do not agree with the assessment that we've outperformed.  That really depends on your baseline expectation for the team.  In my mind, a team with Pierce, KG, Ray Allen and Rondo should have been a high seed going deep in the playoffs.

[MBunge]

My take is that Doc in neither excellent, nor terrible.  He's closer to middle of the road. We've seen his strengths, he's a motivator and he gets his players to buy in.  Successful NBA coaches are the ones that can command the respect of their players. And getting NBA players to commit on the defensive end is a challenge.  He has proven he can do that.

On the flip side, we've seen the same weaknesses over and over.  The offense has generally not been good, and is entirely predictable.  We've seen the team get gassed out and collapse in the fourth quarter repeatedly. Losing the 2010 NBA Finals and the 2012 Eastern Conference Finals having led both series 3-2 were critical losses.   Throw in the Magic series in 2009 (albeit w/o Garnett) and that's three playoff series where the Celtics have lost having lead 3-2.  As coach, Doc Rivers has to be held accountable for much of that.

Again, Doc is a good NBA coach, and I think his value is in the respect he has earned, as both a player and coach. He's a basketball lifer and his connections include the AAU circuit.  Through his reputation and network, he's able to sell/recruit players to play in Boston, which is not a popular destination among the current generation of players. 

I do think he's probably reaching his end here.  My guess is that he will slide out along with Pierce/KG, once the inevitable rebuild commences.

That's a very good analysis.

The big issue with Doc if he stays is that there's no fooling anyone any more.  He can't just have this team play the exact same way it has and expect Pierce and KG to win games.  The offense clearly needs a near total overhaul and the defense probably needs a few tweaks as well.  If Doc can do that, like Pop did with the Spurs, then the folks who hail his greatness will be proven right.

Mike

[BudweiserCeltic]

Doc has been downright terrible this season, no excuses. He's been even worse in the playoffs. I used to be a Doc backer for most of his career, including those awful Celtics we had, but no longer can he be this bad without repercussions.

[cltc5]

doc is a very good coach.  he isn't the issue.  the issue, and it has been for some time, is danny ainge.

by no means is DA not part of the responsibility either, iagree,  but if you think none of what i elaborated on above falls at docs feet then i cannot help you.

i didnt ask or want your help.  we can agree to disagree about doc.  i still think he is a very good coach.  i wouldnt say he is excellent, but very good.  ainge is the issue, not doc. he works with what he has

No doc doesnt work with what he has and thats part of the problem.  Do you think we coulda used a big or two like Randolph to fill the paint in game two when we were gettin eaten up?  sure, so what does Doc do, go small ball.  Anyone with common sense woulda made the change

[Boris Badenov]

Rivers is terrible. The 08 team would have won no matter who was at the helm. We were stacked. Look at what Pop has done with the spurs in a similar circumstances with a aging
group.

This is great, I can now just slightly update my numbers and have lengthy responses by pasting my responses from a month ago, the last time this came up:

You are either over-valuing the Celtics players, or under-valuing the Spurs players, or both.

Both Duncan and Parker are playing MVP-level basketball this year. Per-36 Duncan is averaging 21 pts, 12 reb, 3 ast, 1 stl and 3.2 blocks. KG is averaging 18 ppg, 9 rpg, 3 apg, 1.4 spg and 1.1 bpg.

Parker is similarly having a career year. His numbers are pretty close to Chris Paul's, particularly on a per-minute basis.

Both have been mentioned in MVP discussions during the year.

http://www.sbnation.com/2013/4/5/4186466/nba-mvp-award-2013-lebron-james-kevin-durant

http://www.nba.us/mvp-ladder/

Duncan and Parker have PERs of 24.7 and 23.5 (6th and 9th in the league). KG and Rondo were at 19.0 and 18.1 (38th and 55th).

When the Celtics were winning 60+ games per year, KG's PER was 25 (in 07-08) and he was an MVP/DPOY candidate. We had Rondo playing well, and both Pierce and Allen playing at All-Star or close to All-Star levels.

What we are seeing now is that our best player(s) are simply not at that elite level any more - but the Spurs' players are. The coaches are the same, but the players are different.

As far as the supporting casts, I think that Pierce and Ginobili are pretty equal, with Pierce having the edge this year in terms of minutes and durability.

But Leonard/Splitter/Green/Blair/etc. are superior to Green/Bradley/Terry/Lee/Sully/etc...without getting into the details, I think Leonard is superior in virtually every aspect of the game), but more important we have no one even remotely close to Splitter in the frontcourt.

But regardless it's the difference at the top that really matters. Given the big difference in terms of the top players, and the overall superiority of Spurs talent everywhere else, the difference in their records is not surprising.

You can argue that it's Doc all you want, but Doc coached a 66-win team to the championship when he had a top-5 talent, another top-20 talent and a decent supporting cast. We have nothing close to that now.

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

I like how before the big 3 doc sucked and didn't know what he was doing, then he became a great coach overnight, now he sucks again, lol.

I think you just answered your own question.

[cltc5]

I like how before the big 3 doc sucked and didn't know what he was doing, then he became a great coach overnight, now he sucks again, lol.

I think you just answered your own question.

thats becasue we have a coach that thinks KG and PP are still at that level so runs them into the ground, and a GM that thinks getting guys like Kmart is not a good fit.  But it wouldnt matter anyway becasue ainge doesnt tell doc rivers ...look we got this guy for you now play him...aka randolph

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

doc is a very good coach.  he isn't the issue.  the issue, and it has been for some time, is danny ainge.

by no means is DA not part of the responsibility either, iagree,  but if you think none of what i elaborated on above falls at docs feet then i cannot help you.

i didnt ask or want your help.  we can agree to disagree about doc.  i still think he is a very good coach.  i wouldnt say he is excellent, but very good.  ainge is the issue, not doc. he works with what he has

No doc doesnt work with what he has and thats part of the problem.  Do you think we coulda used a big or two like Randolph to fill the paint in game two when we were gettin eaten up?  sure, so what does Doc do, go small ball.  Anyone with common sense woulda made the change

DING DING DING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

we stayed allergic to the paint. has not used a plethora of players correctly. JET, shav, t-will, even wilcox to an extent.

[badshar]

To those saying they can put anyone can coach the 08 team is either stupid or doesn't know anything about basketball. That year, not only did Doc have to manage the egos of the Big 3 and force them to no longer be the "superstar" on the team, but he also had to convince them to play their best defense they had ever played and had to manage the egos of the young players (Rondo, who had attitude problems) and force them to listen to the Big 3.

He had a ton of things to deal with.
Just because you have talent doesn't mean anyone can take the coaching role and they will win no matter what.

Heat lost to Mavs in 2011 because Spoelstra did not do a good job coaching then. They had all the talent, so could you coach them to a championship too?

Their offense was garbage. It was all fat break and ISO. They had no plays on offense.

Since then, their offense has turned 180 degrees. Their offense is 100 times better.

I am sorry to break your bubbles, but you couldn't have coached the 08 Celtics despite having all the talent and you couldn't have coached the 11 Heat despite having LeBron, Wade and Bosh.

So think 100 times next time before posting BS garbage nonsense about you being able to coach any superteam.

[wdleehi]

Not over the outcome of this season. 


This season is an issue of injuries, age and the inability to get one more good big.






If they want to replace him because they are going to blow up the team and want to go young, I could see them looking to bring in an experience coach with a track record of developing young players, I could be ok with that.