Wes Welker signs with Denver Broncos / Amendola to Pats (Merged)

[Cman]

What coaches yell at players doesn't strike me as all that relevant to the expectations we should have as fans on a given sequence of football.

A play he could have made, but not one that I'd really expect a player to make.

I'd side more with this, although I'd say I expect him to make that catch because he's so good, but it wouldn't surprise me he didn't, because its such a tough catch. Kind of like Paul Pierce hitting a critical stepback J with a hand in his face.

Using the language/terms in this thread, if Rondo had just passed Pierce the ball, and Pierce misses that J, its "100% on Rondo".



yes, yes, I know it is a different situation, etc -- just having fun with how passionate some people are about bashing Brady at all costs

[Cman]

I sure will miss wes welker. He came through big when we needed him most.

That drop is 100% on Bill Belichick!

[Snakehead]

Regarding the drop in the Super Bowl, its real simple. Ask any high school coach, any college coach, any receivers coach, any D-back coach and they will all say the same thing. If the ball hits you in the hands, you have to catch it.

Period.

End of story.

Ha yeah, if the ball is within feet of a receiver it doesn't matter where it is at all, it's a good throw no matter what.

I know people are smarter than this.  Trying to figure this out but it's just funny at this point.  It was not a good throw.

It's not really an "Either Or" in my book like so many on here are trying to make it out to be. (I also think there are some other motives on here but I digress)

Not the best pass but a catchaable ball.  That play's been made in football at the Pro  level before and will be made again.

You're right, what kills me though is that this is probably Welker's only real flaw.  He can't catch high balls he has to rotate that way because of his size.

Yet this one play makes him a hack to many Pats fans and they discredit all of his other accomplishments.

Welker could have caught the ball, but it would have been a great catch and a bad pass.

What coaches yell at players doesn't strike me as all that relevant to the expectations we should have as fans on a given sequence of football.

A play he could have made, but not one that I'd really expect a player to make.

I'd side more with this, although I'd say I expect him to make that catch because he's so good, but it wouldn't surprise me he didn't, because its such a tough catch. Kind of like Paul Pierce hitting a critical stepback J with a hand in his face.

Using the language/terms in this thread, if Rondo had just passed Pierce the ball, and Pierce misses that J, its "100% on Rondo".



yes, yes, I know it is a different situation, etc -- just having fun with how passionate some people are about bashing Brady at all costs

It'd be more like bashing Pierce for not hitting a jump shot from a pass that made him have to drift out of bounds and deep from the three point line vs right in his motion.

Brady is great, Welker is great.  I just take issue with this play, it was not a good pass by Brady and Welker would have been making a great catch if he brought it in.

[Snakehead]

Regarding the drop in the Super Bowl, its real simple. Ask any high school coach, any college coach, any receivers coach, any D-back coach and they will all say the same thing. If the ball hits you in the hands, you have to catch it.

Period.

End of story.

Ha yeah, if the ball is within feet of a receiver it doesn't matter where it is at all, it's a good throw no matter what.

I know people are smarter than this.  Trying to figure this out but it's just funny at this point.  It was not a good throw.

Never said it was a good throw. Not once. I said it could have been a better throw.

That's not the point.

In football, if the ball hits both your hands, you are supposed to catch it. Doesn't matter if you are a DB, S, WR, RB, whatever. If the ball is in your area and hits both your hands, it is your responsibility to catch it.

Remember my soph year in high school like yesterday. In practice one day I swatted down a pass with both hands and thought I made a great play. Coach walked over, grabbed my face mask and screamed at me for 10 minutes about catching that ball. Its my job to catch it not knock it down. Its my job to catch it and give the ball back to our offense. Just knocking it down does nothing because if I try to knock it down and it bounces in the air, the opposing team, who teaches their receivers to catch anything thrown their way, might catch it and hurt the team.

Got smacked upside the head by the team captain for that one. YOU CATCH ANYTHING THAT HITS YOUR HANDS. That is what I was told before having this huge fist hit me upside the helmet.

If you think this story is not one told by tons of players in high school and college ball you haven't been around football much.

It wasn't a good throw. But the ball got there and hit Welker in his hands. He dropped it. That's on Welker. But you know what. receivers drop balls and Welker is an elite pass catcher. It happens. Brady is an elite QB. He threw the ball behind his receiver when he didn't have to. It happens to all QBs.

Yes your last paragraph is actually right here.  So why throw Welker under the bus with your previous "if it hits you on the hands" binary argument?  It doesn't take realities into account, it's a silly statement told to motivate players by coaches.  It isn't realistic, I heard it when I played too.

 As a person analyzing plays, we should be looking at more than "oh it hit his hands!"  We aren't people playing reciever trying to motivated to catch the ball.  Save the "hit his hands" talk.

What coaches yell at players doesn't strike me as all that relevant to the expectations we should have as fans on a given sequence of football.

A play he could have made, but not one that I'd really expect a player to make.

Exactly.

[kozlodoev]

what is McDaniels' facination with ex-players...really...Lloyd's YAC was one of the worst in the league...

You realize that you're rarely going toget YAC with the type of completions that are typically  thrown to Lloyd, right?

[Donoghus]

what is McDaniels' facination with ex-players...really...Lloyd's YAC was one of the worst in the league...

You realize that you're rarely going toget YAC with the type of completions that are typically  thrown to Lloyd, right?

Also, regarding the McDaniels/Amendola connection, those two had one game together with the Rams so I think I this whole idea being thrown around about the strength of that connection is a big overblown.

[nickagneta]

Regarding the drop in the Super Bowl, its real simple. Ask any high school coach, any college coach, any receivers coach, any D-back coach and they will all say the same thing. If the ball hits you in the hands, you have to catch it.

Period.

End of story.

Ha yeah, if the ball is within feet of a receiver it doesn't matter where it is at all, it's a good throw no matter what.

I know people are smarter than this.  Trying to figure this out but it's just funny at this point.  It was not a good throw.

Never said it was a good throw. Not once. I said it could have been a better throw.

That's not the point.

In football, if the ball hits both your hands, you are supposed to catch it. Doesn't matter if you are a DB, S, WR, RB, whatever. If the ball is in your area and hits both your hands, it is your responsibility to catch it.

Remember my soph year in high school like yesterday. In practice one day I swatted down a pass with both hands and thought I made a great play. Coach walked over, grabbed my face mask and screamed at me for 10 minutes about catching that ball. Its my job to catch it not knock it down. Its my job to catch it and give the ball back to our offense. Just knocking it down does nothing because if I try to knock it down and it bounces in the air, the opposing team, who teaches their receivers to catch anything thrown their way, might catch it and hurt the team.

Got smacked upside the head by the team captain for that one. YOU CATCH ANYTHING THAT HITS YOUR HANDS. That is what I was told before having this huge fist hit me upside the helmet.

If you think this story is not one told by tons of players in high school and college ball you haven't been around football much.

It wasn't a good throw. But the ball got there and hit Welker in his hands. He dropped it. That's on Welker. But you know what. receivers drop balls and Welker is an elite pass catcher. It happens. Brady is an elite QB. He threw the ball behind his receiver when he didn't have to. It happens to all QBs.

Yes your last paragraph is actually right here.  So why throw Welker under the bus with your previous "if it hits you on the hands" binary argument?  It doesn't take realities into account, it's a silly statement told to motivate players by coaches.  It isn't realistic, I heard it when I played too.

 As a person analyzing plays, we should be looking at more than "oh it hit his hands!"  We aren't people playing reciever trying to motivated to catch the ball.  Save the "hit his hands" talk.

What coaches yell at players doesn't strike me as all that relevant to the expectations we should have as fans on a given sequence of football.

A play he could have made, but not one that I'd really expect a player to make.

Exactly.

Let me just say, you are both wrong. It hit him in the hands. He has to make that catch. Heck he admitted it himself.

But he didnt. So its on him. Tough but makeable catch. He dropped it.

As to what coaches tell their players, it might not be relevant to fans or their expectations but it is the law of these football players. The same way the basics are drilled into basketball players about boxing out, keeping hands up, making passes crisp, keeping your man in front of you, etc, etc. We have expectations for those players to do those things. Those expectations shouldn't change simply because the basic skill is different and in another sport.

[Snakehead]

Regarding the drop in the Super Bowl, its real simple. Ask any high school coach, any college coach, any receivers coach, any D-back coach and they will all say the same thing. If the ball hits you in the hands, you have to catch it.

Period.

End of story.

Ha yeah, if the ball is within feet of a receiver it doesn't matter where it is at all, it's a good throw no matter what.

I know people are smarter than this.  Trying to figure this out but it's just funny at this point.  It was not a good throw.

Never said it was a good throw. Not once. I said it could have been a better throw.

That's not the point.

In football, if the ball hits both your hands, you are supposed to catch it. Doesn't matter if you are a DB, S, WR, RB, whatever. If the ball is in your area and hits both your hands, it is your responsibility to catch it.

Remember my soph year in high school like yesterday. In practice one day I swatted down a pass with both hands and thought I made a great play. Coach walked over, grabbed my face mask and screamed at me for 10 minutes about catching that ball. Its my job to catch it not knock it down. Its my job to catch it and give the ball back to our offense. Just knocking it down does nothing because if I try to knock it down and it bounces in the air, the opposing team, who teaches their receivers to catch anything thrown their way, might catch it and hurt the team.

Got smacked upside the head by the team captain for that one. YOU CATCH ANYTHING THAT HITS YOUR HANDS. That is what I was told before having this huge fist hit me upside the helmet.

If you think this story is not one told by tons of players in high school and college ball you haven't been around football much.

It wasn't a good throw. But the ball got there and hit Welker in his hands. He dropped it. That's on Welker. But you know what. receivers drop balls and Welker is an elite pass catcher. It happens. Brady is an elite QB. He threw the ball behind his receiver when he didn't have to. It happens to all QBs.

Yes your last paragraph is actually right here.  So why throw Welker under the bus with your previous "if it hits you on the hands" binary argument?  It doesn't take realities into account, it's a silly statement told to motivate players by coaches.  It isn't realistic, I heard it when I played too.

 As a person analyzing plays, we should be looking at more than "oh it hit his hands!"  We aren't people playing reciever trying to motivated to catch the ball.  Save the "hit his hands" talk.

What coaches yell at players doesn't strike me as all that relevant to the expectations we should have as fans on a given sequence of football.

A play he could have made, but not one that I'd really expect a player to make.

Exactly.

Let me just say, you are both wrong. It hit him in the hands. He has to make that catch. Heck he admitted it himself.

But he didnt. So its on him. Tough but makeable catch. He dropped it.

As to what coaches tell their players, it might not be relevant to fans or their expectations but it is the law of these football players. The same way the basics are drilled into basketball players about boxing out, keeping hands up, making passes crisp, keeping your man in front of you, etc, etc. We have expectations for those players to do those things. Those expectations shouldn't change simply because the basic skill is different and in another sport.

So how about hitting your receiver "between the numbers".  Does Brady not get that old cliche coach motivator on that play?

[Donoghus]

Regarding the drop in the Super Bowl, its real simple. Ask any high school coach, any college coach, any receivers coach, any D-back coach and they will all say the same thing. If the ball hits you in the hands, you have to catch it.

Period.

End of story.

Ha yeah, if the ball is within feet of a receiver it doesn't matter where it is at all, it's a good throw no matter what.

I know people are smarter than this.  Trying to figure this out but it's just funny at this point.  It was not a good throw.

Never said it was a good throw. Not once. I said it could have been a better throw.

That's not the point.

In football, if the ball hits both your hands, you are supposed to catch it. Doesn't matter if you are a DB, S, WR, RB, whatever. If the ball is in your area and hits both your hands, it is your responsibility to catch it.

Remember my soph year in high school like yesterday. In practice one day I swatted down a pass with both hands and thought I made a great play. Coach walked over, grabbed my face mask and screamed at me for 10 minutes about catching that ball. Its my job to catch it not knock it down. Its my job to catch it and give the ball back to our offense. Just knocking it down does nothing because if I try to knock it down and it bounces in the air, the opposing team, who teaches their receivers to catch anything thrown their way, might catch it and hurt the team.

Got smacked upside the head by the team captain for that one. YOU CATCH ANYTHING THAT HITS YOUR HANDS. That is what I was told before having this huge fist hit me upside the helmet.

If you think this story is not one told by tons of players in high school and college ball you haven't been around football much.

It wasn't a good throw. But the ball got there and hit Welker in his hands. He dropped it. That's on Welker. But you know what. receivers drop balls and Welker is an elite pass catcher. It happens. Brady is an elite QB. He threw the ball behind his receiver when he didn't have to. It happens to all QBs.

Yes your last paragraph is actually right here.  So why throw Welker under the bus with your previous "if it hits you on the hands" binary argument?  It doesn't take realities into account, it's a silly statement told to motivate players by coaches.  It isn't realistic, I heard it when I played too.

 As a person analyzing plays, we should be looking at more than "oh it hit his hands!"  We aren't people playing reciever trying to motivated to catch the ball.  Save the "hit his hands" talk.

What coaches yell at players doesn't strike me as all that relevant to the expectations we should have as fans on a given sequence of football.

A play he could have made, but not one that I'd really expect a player to make.

Exactly.

Let me just say, you are both wrong. It hit him in the hands. He has to make that catch. Heck he admitted it himself.

But he didnt. So its on him. Tough but makeable catch. He dropped it.

As to what coaches tell their players, it might not be relevant to fans or their expectations but it is the law of these football players. The same way the basics are drilled into basketball players about boxing out, keeping hands up, making passes crisp, keeping your man in front of you, etc, etc. We have expectations for those players to do those things. Those expectations shouldn't change simply because the basic skill is different and in another sport.

So how about hitting your receiver "between the numbers".  Does Brady not get that old cliche coach motivator on that play?

How many throws actually hit receivers in the numbers in an actual game?

That's an overblown cliche in itself. It's the ideal scenario but often not practical.

[Cman]

To get back on topic:

I wish Welker all the best in Denver (except when he plays the Patriots, of course), and I look forward to seeing what Amendola can do.

Moving on, what I care more about now, from a Patriots point of view, is the additional FA moves the team makes. I'm particularly interested in the D, as this was a clear weakness of the Pats (relative to other contenders).

[Boris Badenov]

I hate to derail this absolutely riveting discussion about what our coaches told us in high school, and how that relates to a play involving the best QB/receiver tandem in the game in the Super Bowl, but to me it seems possible that Belichick et al. felt that Welker:

(a) Might have made the Patriots a little to easy to game-plan when he is the first option on the field, in part because of how much Brady looks for him in the clutch;
(b) Might not be the best fit (compared to a top-tier outside threat) when Gronk and Hernandez are on the field;
(c) Is about to suffer a decline in playing ability.

These are really the only explanations I can think of that makes football sense.

[Snakehead]

Regarding the drop in the Super Bowl, its real simple. Ask any high school coach, any college coach, any receivers coach, any D-back coach and they will all say the same thing. If the ball hits you in the hands, you have to catch it.

Period.

End of story.

Ha yeah, if the ball is within feet of a receiver it doesn't matter where it is at all, it's a good throw no matter what.

I know people are smarter than this.  Trying to figure this out but it's just funny at this point.  It was not a good throw.

Never said it was a good throw. Not once. I said it could have been a better throw.

That's not the point.

In football, if the ball hits both your hands, you are supposed to catch it. Doesn't matter if you are a DB, S, WR, RB, whatever. If the ball is in your area and hits both your hands, it is your responsibility to catch it.

Remember my soph year in high school like yesterday. In practice one day I swatted down a pass with both hands and thought I made a great play. Coach walked over, grabbed my face mask and screamed at me for 10 minutes about catching that ball. Its my job to catch it not knock it down. Its my job to catch it and give the ball back to our offense. Just knocking it down does nothing because if I try to knock it down and it bounces in the air, the opposing team, who teaches their receivers to catch anything thrown their way, might catch it and hurt the team.

Got smacked upside the head by the team captain for that one. YOU CATCH ANYTHING THAT HITS YOUR HANDS. That is what I was told before having this huge fist hit me upside the helmet.

If you think this story is not one told by tons of players in high school and college ball you haven't been around football much.

It wasn't a good throw. But the ball got there and hit Welker in his hands. He dropped it. That's on Welker. But you know what. receivers drop balls and Welker is an elite pass catcher. It happens. Brady is an elite QB. He threw the ball behind his receiver when he didn't have to. It happens to all QBs.

Yes your last paragraph is actually right here.  So why throw Welker under the bus with your previous "if it hits you on the hands" binary argument?  It doesn't take realities into account, it's a silly statement told to motivate players by coaches.  It isn't realistic, I heard it when I played too.

 As a person analyzing plays, we should be looking at more than "oh it hit his hands!"  We aren't people playing reciever trying to motivated to catch the ball.  Save the "hit his hands" talk.

What coaches yell at players doesn't strike me as all that relevant to the expectations we should have as fans on a given sequence of football.

A play he could have made, but not one that I'd really expect a player to make.

Exactly.

Let me just say, you are both wrong. It hit him in the hands. He has to make that catch. Heck he admitted it himself.

But he didnt. So its on him. Tough but makeable catch. He dropped it.

As to what coaches tell their players, it might not be relevant to fans or their expectations but it is the law of these football players. The same way the basics are drilled into basketball players about boxing out, keeping hands up, making passes crisp, keeping your man in front of you, etc, etc. We have expectations for those players to do those things. Those expectations shouldn't change simply because the basic skill is different and in another sport.

So how about hitting your receiver "between the numbers".  Does Brady not get that old cliche coach motivator on that play?

How many throws actually hit receivers in the numbers in an actual game?

That's an overblown cliche in itself. It's the ideal scenario but often not practical.

Well that's my point.

Realism over cliches. I was being sarcastic.

[Roy H.]

I have seen a lot of plays where receivers get their hands on a ball through some sort of amazing effort, but don't complete the catch.  Acrobatic plays, twisting plays, diving plays, plays where they're crunched by two defenders.

Is the suggestion that if those player don't complete what would be an otherwise amazing catch, that they're somehow doing something wrong?  Is a receiver who isn't talented enough to get his hands on a ball somehow better than the receiver who makes a play on a poor pass, but who ultimately doesn't make the completion?

As Snakehead said above, that binary argument lacks any sort of context or realism.

[nickagneta]

Basketball player makes an alley oop pass to a another player. Its a bit off but the player has the ball go right threw his hands and doesnt get the basket.

Should the player have caught it and flushed it? Of course. Is it the passers fault he didnt? No. Could the passer have thrown a better pass? Sure. Does that remove the responsibility from the guy who is supposed to make the catch and dunk because he didnt do what he was supposed do even though it was difficult? No.

Players make alley oop catches and dunks on not the best thrown passes all the time. If you make the play, you are doing what you are supposed to do regardless of the difficulty. If you dont make the play, its on you.

Thats not an agenda against Welker or me protecting Brady. It just is what it is.

[kozlodoev]

I have seen a lot of plays where receivers get their hands on a ball through some sort of amazing effort, but don't complete the catch.  Acrobatic plays, twisting plays, diving plays, plays where they're crunched by two defenders.

Is the suggestion that if those player don't complete what would be an otherwise amazing catch, that they're somehow doing something wrong?  Is a receiver who isn't talented enough to get his hands on a ball somehow better than the receiver who makes a play on a poor pass, but who ultimately doesn't make the completion?

As Snakehead said above, that binary argument lacks any sort of context or realism.

Well, for what it's worth, Welker lead the NFL in dropped passes last season, and the second guy wasn't even close. Make of this what you will.