Wes Welker signs with Denver Broncos / Amendola to Pats (Merged)

[KGs Knee]

I think it's going to be nearly impossible for Amendola to replicate Welker's production or impact in the short term.  Messing with the chemistry of the top QB/WR tandem in the league seems like a negative for a "win now" team.

We'll see. People claim Lloyd had "no chemistry" with Brady, but he still caught 70+ balls for 900+ yards.

They're not likey going to expect Amendola to replicate Welker's production.

My guess, is that they'll be expecting Gronk and Hernandez to pick up the slack.  Meaning, whatever lesser amount of passes Amendola has thrown his way should be able to be made up for by others.  I'd feel fairly confident Gronk/Hernandez should be capable.

The risk is in whether or not they can stay healthy, and also whether or not any of them (including Amendola) will be able to as consistently make the important catches on 3rd downs and such.

[Donoghus]

I have seen a lot of plays where receivers get their hands on a ball through some sort of amazing effort, but don't complete the catch.  Acrobatic plays, twisting plays, diving plays, plays where they're crunched by two defenders.

Is the suggestion that if those player don't complete what would be an otherwise amazing catch, that they're somehow doing something wrong?  Is a receiver who isn't talented enough to get his hands on a ball somehow better than the receiver who makes a play on a poor pass, but who ultimately doesn't make the completion?

As Snakehead said above, that binary argument lacks any sort of context or realism.

Well, for what it's worth, Welker lead the NFL in dropped passes last season, and the second guy wasn't even close. Make of this what you will.

I'm curious what constitutes a "drop".  If they count that incompletion in the Super Bowl as one, then it's a meaningless statistic.

Lol oh man, Sometimes I wonder if we're looking at the same play. There's no way that catch was anywhere near as tough as you're desperately trying to make it out to be. It would have been a good catch but a catch he SHOULD have made.

As someone else said, that's what makes great players great. They catch balls that are right in their hands with no defender near them in the superbowl. Not make excuses because the ball wasn't perfectly thrown..

Welker didn't make any excuses.  He's a great teammate, and teammates don't throw other teammates under the bus.

However, fans are allowed to be a little more objective, and don't have to miscast blame.  You've admitted that it was a poor throw, and required a good catch.  And yet, you put the majority of blame on Welker?  How does that make any sense?

If Brady makes an average throw, the Pats win the Super Bowl.  When Welker drops the ball on a good pass -- like he did against Baltimore -- then he deserves blame.  However, when his QB chokes in the clutch and throws it high and outside, that's on the QB.

So is this anaylysis supposed to be objective?

I think it's objective, sure.  What's my agenda?  Arguing that wide receivers shouldn't be blamed when their QB misses them badly on a throw? 

Like I said, blame Welker when he drops a good pass, like he did against Baltimore.  Don't hang him out to dry when his QB messes up, though.

See, I find it just as subjective as pretty much everyone on here that place whole blame on Welker or somewhere in between.

To be clear, do you place the entire blame on Brady here?  Using the subjective terms like "choke job" & "the altar of Brady" thing from yesterday would seem to indicate that.

[KGs Knee]

To be clear, I don't expect perfection in a pass.

However, there are different types of off-target throws.  Throws that lead a WR a little too much, or that are slightly too high or too low, are definitely catchable.  They require the WR to make an adjustment, but it's basically within the area where a ball is reachable.

What happened on the Brady incompletion to Welker is different.  His throw required his WR to contort and to totally break stride.  When guys are required to rapidly change direction, that makes a catch very, very difficult.  Balls that are behind a guy are among the most uncatchable balls throw.

This pretty much exactly how I feel about it.

Had Brady "missed" with the pass almost anywhere else, it likely would have been caught, and had it not been, Welker would be deserving of the majority of the blame.

But that wasn't what happened.  Instead, Brady threw the ball to the worst possible spot (outside of throwing it even more off target).  So, it wasn't just that Brady missed his target, it's where he missed.

[Roy H.]

I have seen a lot of plays where receivers get their hands on a ball through some sort of amazing effort, but don't complete the catch.  Acrobatic plays, twisting plays, diving plays, plays where they're crunched by two defenders.

Is the suggestion that if those player don't complete what would be an otherwise amazing catch, that they're somehow doing something wrong?  Is a receiver who isn't talented enough to get his hands on a ball somehow better than the receiver who makes a play on a poor pass, but who ultimately doesn't make the completion?

As Snakehead said above, that binary argument lacks any sort of context or realism.

Well, for what it's worth, Welker lead the NFL in dropped passes last season, and the second guy wasn't even close. Make of this what you will.

I'm curious what constitutes a "drop".  If they count that incompletion in the Super Bowl as one, then it's a meaningless statistic.

Lol oh man, Sometimes I wonder if we're looking at the same play. There's no way that catch was anywhere near as tough as you're desperately trying to make it out to be. It would have been a good catch but a catch he SHOULD have made.

As someone else said, that's what makes great players great. They catch balls that are right in their hands with no defender near them in the superbowl. Not make excuses because the ball wasn't perfectly thrown..

Welker didn't make any excuses.  He's a great teammate, and teammates don't throw other teammates under the bus.

However, fans are allowed to be a little more objective, and don't have to miscast blame.  You've admitted that it was a poor throw, and required a good catch.  And yet, you put the majority of blame on Welker?  How does that make any sense?

If Brady makes an average throw, the Pats win the Super Bowl.  When Welker drops the ball on a good pass -- like he did against Baltimore -- then he deserves blame.  However, when his QB chokes in the clutch and throws it high and outside, that's on the QB.

So is this anaylysis supposed to be objective?

I think it's objective, sure.  What's my agenda?  Arguing that wide receivers shouldn't be blamed when their QB misses them badly on a throw? 

Like I said, blame Welker when he drops a good pass, like he did against Baltimore.  Don't hang him out to dry when his QB messes up, though.

See, I find it just as subjective as pretty much everyone on here that place whole blame on Welker or somewhere in between.

To be clear, do you place the entire blame on Brady here?  Using the subjective terms like "choke job" & "the altar of Brady" thing from yesterday would seem to indicate that.

Yes, I do, in this particular instance.  Brady didn't put the ball where it needed to be.  Here, he solely deserves the blame.  When you require your WR to break stride and contort to make an attempt on the ball, it's the QB's fault.  Just because Welker has allegedly caught similar bad throws in the past, or because Welker got his hands on the ball, doesn't mean that he gets blamed for not making a great catch.

I say that under the assumption that Welker ran the correct route, of course.  If the ball was intended to go over Welker's outside shoulder, and Welker put himself into a bad position, then it would be on him.  However, I haven't heard that particular defense of Brady's throw.

[Donoghus]

I will say it is interesting to see the contrasts of where blames lies among the various posters on here in regards to those who might be football fans but not Pats fans, football fans who don't mind the Pats, & Pats fans.

Quite the dynamic. 

[kozlodoev]

I will say it is interesting to see the contrasts of where blames lies among the various posters on here in regards to those who might be football fans but not Pats fans, football fans who don't mind the Pats, & Pats fans.

Quite the dynamic.

What I find interesting is that there's a 15+ page thread on Welker, and zero threads on how the Pats have only 2 real DBs under contract.

[Cman]

Interesting piece of news from the tweetfeed today:

@tomecurran: Amendola signed with the Patriots on Tuesday. NE did not react to Denver, they made choice when Welker went to market

This is fascinating, if true.

A bunch of things popped into my mind when I read that:

(1) Pats pretty much nailed the market value for Welker.

(2) Pats were nervous that they'd end up with *no* slot receiver, so rather take the bird in hand (Amendola) at the price they liked rather than wait and risk having nothing.

(3) Sends a message to Talib and Vollmer -- Pats are ready to move on players in the market if the price is right (in the Pats' eyes). Pats aren't necessarily going to wait for Talib and Vollmer to establish their value on the market before deciding to match or not.

[kozlodoev]

Interesting piece of news from the tweetfeed today:

@tomecurran: Amendola signed with the Patriots on Tuesday. NE did not react to Denver, they made choice when Welker went to market

This is fascinating, if true.

A bunch of things popped into my mind when I read that:

(1) Pats pretty much nailed the market value for Welker.

(2) Pats were nervous that they'd end up with *no* slot receiver, so rather take the bird in hand (Amendola) at the price they liked rather than wait and risk having nothing.

(3) Sends a message to Talib and Vollmer -- Pats are ready to move on players in the market if the price is right (in the Pats' eyes). Pats aren't necessarily going to wait for Talib and Vollmer to establish their value on the market before deciding to match or not.

I find Vollmer and Talib incomparably more critical at this juncture, given that we've lost Donald Thomas and Patrick Chung already, Dennard is convicted, and Arrington remains unsigned.

[Donoghus]

I will say it is interesting to see the contrasts of where blames lies among the various posters on here in regards to those who might be football fans but not Pats fans, football fans who don't mind the Pats, & Pats fans.

Quite the dynamic.

What I find interesting is that there's a 15+ page thread on Welker, and zero threads on how the Pats have only 2 real DBs under contract.

McCourty & Gregory?  Tavon's still around too.

Well, I guess Dennard has his fair share of issues right now.   

[nickagneta]

A)  Even if it did make the Pats "too easy to gameplan", the correct solution isn't geting rid of the player, the correct solution is changing your own gameplan to counteact this.

Maybe, but Brady will throw where Brady wants to throw. And when he has Amendola instead of Welker in the slot, he may be less inclined to go there. As great as TB12 is, there is clear favoritism in where he delivers the ball.

Not sure this is true as much as Welker is the read that is constantly open. Brady has his primary, secondary and sometimes tertiary reads and then checks down to the slot receiver. He does this amazingly fast, maybe faster than anyone in the league.

Welker is an elite, fantastic, amazing slot receiver knowing exactly how to properly find his place between the secondary and linebackers and stopping in the open spot. He's better at it than anyone. But he's thrown to so much because he is the safety valve on over 80% of the Pats throwing plays. And he is the primary read on probably the other percentage of plays.

Branch was that way for many years as well. Thing is it took years for Branch, Welker and Brady to develop that rhythm and trust and now that has to start over. If Amendola's hands are as good as his stats and he stays healthy, I think it will mitigate the loss of Welker.

[kozlodoev]

I will say it is interesting to see the contrasts of where blames lies among the various posters on here in regards to those who might be football fans but not Pats fans, football fans who don't mind the Pats, & Pats fans.

Quite the dynamic.

What I find interesting is that there's a 15+ page thread on Welker, and zero threads on how the Pats have only 2 real DBs under contract.

McCourty & Gregory?  Tavon's still around too.

Well, I guess Dennard has his fair share of issues right now.

Yep, the safety corpse is ok, I guess (though I'd happily take Pollard, too) -- but we need CBs in the worst way.

[Donoghus]

A)  Even if it did make the Pats "too easy to gameplan", the correct solution isn't geting rid of the player, the correct solution is changing your own gameplan to counteact this.

Maybe, but Brady will throw where Brady wants to throw. And when he has Amendola instead of Welker in the slot, he may be less inclined to go there. As great as TB12 is, there is clear favoritism in where he delivers the ball.

Not sure this is true as much as Welker is the read that is constantly open. Brady has his primary, secondary and sometimes tertiary reads and then checks down to the slot receiver. He does this amazingly fast, maybe faster than anyone in the league.

Welker is an elite, fantastic, amazing slot receiver knowing exactly how to properly find his place between the secondary and linebackers and stopping in the open spot. He's better at it than anyone. But he's thrown to so much because he is the safety valve on over 80% of the Pats throwing plays. And he is the primary read on probably the other percentage of plays.

Branch was that way for many years as well. Thing is it took years for Branch, Welker and Brady to develop that rhythm and trust and now that has to start over. If Amendola's hands are as good as his stats and he stays healthy, I think it will mitigate the loss of Welker.

I really think they'll be splitting out Hernandez more this season.  He'll much more resemble a WR.

[Cman]

Interesting piece of news from the tweetfeed today:

@tomecurran: Amendola signed with the Patriots on Tuesday. NE did not react to Denver, they made choice when Welker went to market

This is fascinating, if true.

A bunch of things popped into my mind when I read that:

(1) Pats pretty much nailed the market value for Welker.

(2) Pats were nervous that they'd end up with *no* slot receiver, so rather take the bird in hand (Amendola) at the price they liked rather than wait and risk having nothing.

(3) Sends a message to Talib and Vollmer -- Pats are ready to move on players in the market if the price is right (in the Pats' eyes). Pats aren't necessarily going to wait for Talib and Vollmer to establish their value on the market before deciding to match or not.

I find Vollmer and Talib incomparably more critical at this juncture, given that we've lost Donald Thomas and Patrick Chung already, Dennard is convicted, and Arrington remains unsigned.

Agreed, though I'd rank Talib well above Vollmer. Defense is the real area the Pats need to address this offseason, preferably via FA, IMHO.  Thankfully, from what I understand, it is a pretty soft market for CBs. I wouldn't be surprised if the Pats end up with Talib and another decent CB.

[kozlodoev]

Agreed, though I'd rank Talib well above Vollmer. Defense is the real area the Pats need to address this offseason, preferably via FA, IMHO.  Thankfully, from what I understand, it is a pretty soft market for CBs. I wouldn't be surprised if the Pats end up with Talib and another decent CB.

Sean Smith just got a 3 year, $18 million deal. No reason why Talib should command any more than this. Him and Grimes seem to be the top 2 CBs on the market right now.

[Lightskinsmurf]

A)  Even if it did make the Pats "too easy to gameplan", the correct solution isn't geting rid of the player, the correct solution is changing your own gameplan to counteact this.

Maybe, but Brady will throw where Brady wants to throw. And when he has Amendola instead of Welker in the slot, he may be less inclined to go there. As great as TB12 is, there is clear favoritism in where he delivers the ball.

Not sure this is true as much as Welker is the read that is constantly open. Brady has his primary, secondary and sometimes tertiary reads and then checks down to the slot receiver. He does this amazingly fast, maybe faster than anyone in the league.

Welker is an elite, fantastic, amazing slot receiver knowing exactly how to properly find his place between the secondary and linebackers and stopping in the open spot. He's better at it than anyone. But he's thrown to so much because he is the safety valve on over 80% of the Pats throwing plays. And he is the primary read on probably the other percentage of plays.

Branch was that way for many years as well. Thing is it took years for Branch, Welker and Brady to develop that rhythm and trust and now that has to start over. If Amendola's hands are as good as his stats and he stays healthy, I think it will mitigate the loss of Welker.

Welker had similar stats to amendola before he came to new england didn't he?