James Harden Traded To Rockets. REACTION!!! (merged)

[Lucky17]

The thing about this trade that really surprised me was how quickly things happened.

Literally a matter of hours after Harden turned down a 4 year, $54 million contract. The max he could have gotten: 4 years, $60 million, according to reports.

Six million dollars spread out over four years. That's not a huge gap to try to bridge for those two sides. Instead of trying to bridge that gap, Presti pulled the trigger on a deal that could seriously disrupt OKC team chemistry. I think he got a great return, but OKC was a championship finalist last year.

[syfy9]

Martin is a very good player. While he's not the same mold as Harden, he excels in his own ways.

Martin is one of the best players at drawing fouls. He creates points by getting to the line so often and making them. With the ball in his hands, he can get you points - not the way Harden does (in terms of how) though. He's also a pure shooter - while he's better at playing with the ball, he will do just fine. He'll create scoring opportunities - just not in the play maker role that Harden was in.


I believe that Harden is by all means better than K-Mart, but K-Mart is not a scrub. He's also a top 5-7 shooting guard in this league. Add in Lamb (a very good prospect that can run with the other youngsters) and a lottery pick (that could possibly be #4), and Presti made a very good deal.

[arambone]

Not sure why OKC didn't just amnesty Perkins this summer.

[indeedproceed]

Martin is a very good player. While he's not the same mold as Harden, he excels in his own ways.

Martin is one of the best players at drawing fouls. He creates points by getting to the line so often and making them. With the ball in his hands, he can get you points - not the way Harden does (in terms of how) though. He's also a pure shooter - while he's better at playing with the ball, he will do just fine. He'll create scoring opportunities - just not in the play maker role that Harden was in.

Offensively, Kevin Martin draws a ton of fouls, and is a great shooter and shot creator. Just a good scorer.

But not as good as he used to be. Lowest TS% and second lowest FG% since his rookie year, third worst 3pt% of his career, his lowest free-throws attempted since his sophomore year, a lot of indicators that he's losing his scoring efficiency, which is the only thing that made him a viable starter.

Plus, Martin is a terrible, terrible defender. A lot of experts in the field have him ranked as the worst 2 guard defender in basketball, and he's not a particularly good facilitator.

I believe that Harden is by all means better than K-Mart, but K-Mart is not a scrub. He's also a top 5-7 shooting guard in this league. Add in Lamb (a very good prospect that can run with the other youngsters) and a lottery pick (that could possibly be #4), and Presti made a very good deal.

See, the knock on Kevin Martin, even when he was the most efficient scorer in basketball 4 years ago was that even with his unimpeachable scoring resume, his defense was so extraordinarily bad that for every point he scored, he gave one up as well.

Now, with his efficiency dropping, that gets a bit exacerbated. I don't think he's a top 5 shooting guard, I don't even think he's a top 10 or 15 shooting guard, and that's a very thin position.

[BballTim]

Martin is a very good player. While he's not the same mold as Harden, he excels in his own ways.

Martin is one of the best players at drawing fouls. He creates points by getting to the line so often and making them. With the ball in his hands, he can get you points - not the way Harden does (in terms of how) though. He's also a pure shooter - while he's better at playing with the ball, he will do just fine. He'll create scoring opportunities - just not in the play maker role that Harden was in.

Offensively, Kevin Martin draws a ton of fouls, and is a great shooter and shot creator. Just a good scorer.

But not as good as he used to be. Lowest TS% and second lowest FG% since his rookie year, third worst 3pt% of his career, his lowest free-throws attempted since his sophomore year, a lot of indicators that he's losing his scoring efficiency, which is the only thing that made him a viable starter.

  I think his health had a lot to do with his shooting woes last season.

[Eja117]

From the point of view of the Rockets I think they messed up. Sending a large expiring contract, the best sg in this draft, and two more first rounders is just not worth it for Harden alone. 

From the point of view of the Thunder they got pretty good value for a guy that was going to be really tough to stuff under the cap. Gives them a lot of depth. 

You'll see that Harden was never the engine or even a second fiddle that powered the Thunder. He was a very distant third fiddle behind Durant and Westbrook.  Stick Martin in there and they'll still be great. We found out the hard way Ray Allens don't matter much in the great scheme of things. You can put other guys in there and still be very good.

Look at where they were last year.

Take out Harden

Put in Martin, Lamb, and PJ3 and they're a better team. And they get draft picks too.

But the Rockets missed a prime opportunity to move out big men or Royce White or something.  I assume the Thunder insisted on Lamb because of Martin's expiring contract and the Rockets didn't want to give up any more prospects

[Neurotic Guy]

Is this the parting of the sea for the Lakers? 

Not sure how this will impact OKC long-term but it sure doesn't look like a move to make them better in 12-13. 

[pearljammer10]

I think this is a lose, lose, lose for all three parties involved (Thunder, Rockets, and Harden).

Yes the Thunder will end up saving money and I get the idea of trying to get as much value as they can for Harden. They were able to get good young players and a vet in Martin. But Harden was the most efficient ball handler in the league last season (especially on the pick and roll). Taking that away will be huge. The Thunder were the kings of the West with the core of Durant Westbrook and Harden (Ibaka as well) and to distrupt that chemistry two days before the season starts will be a huge road bump.

They get Lamb who a lot of prospects like, but playing behind Westbrook, Thabo, and Martin, where is he going to get his minutes to develop? The two first round picks and the early second rounder will be nice, but eventually the Thunder are just going to have to dish out money to pay these guys as well, money that they wont have. As for Martin, I think he is extremely overated. Yes, he has been known to score but you already have the leagues best scorer plus Westbrook with the balls in their hands. Where is Martin going to get enough touches to be effective? Plus Martin cant guard a chair and is extremely injury prone. I dont buy that Martin is going to make the Thunder better. Loosing harden drops the Thunder behind the Lakers and the Spurs immediately, who knows if they will get better in years beyond with this aquisition.

The Rockets give up A LOT for Harden. They stock piled these draft picks to make a big splash and spend it on a 6th man? Now Harden is taken out of his role and is giving the reigns as the number one option in Houston. If opposing teams put their best defenders on Harden, his production goes way down and then there is no one else on the rockets to pick him up. Lin or Asik will not be making teams pay for double teaming Harden. They loose some nice draft picks and a great pick this year for a guy who might not be capable of playing the number one option in their system.

Finally, Harden looses as well. He was part of a team that could be a contending dynasty to the Heat. He really couldnt take 2 mil less a year to keep this thing in tact and make a Finals run consistantly for the next 4 to 5 and even 6 years? What a bone head. With a core of Westbrook, Durant, Harden, and Ibaka you can fill in the rest with vet min contracts and rookie deals and still contend year after year. Now Harden is placed in a rebuilding situation with the worst team in the West and he is a number one option with no one to help him...All because he wanted to be considered a Max Deal guy?

The Rockets have had an extremely rough off season in my eyes. Not really sure what they are trying to accomplish down there in Houston. But in three years when the Lin and Asik contracts hit those ridiculous back loaded numbers, plus if the resign Harden to a max deal, they are going to be so cash strapped with bad contracts its not even funny. Not to mention the possibility that Harden may not sign an extension (smart move by him) and they loose 3 great draft picks because of it.

[indeedproceed]

You guys know that even with Harden on a Max deal, even with Lin and Asik, Houston will still have enough cap room for another max deal, right?

Plus, Harden has already said he'll be signing a max extension before Wednesday.

[GreenFaith1819]

I think OKC could stand to gain in this trade if they bring Martin off the bench for scoring punch. He is not the defender that Harden is, but he can help them in the offensive regard.

Start Thabo.

Here are Martin's and Harden's comparisons from 82games.com. I still think that OKC lost in this trade, even though I understand why Presti had to make it.

http://www.82games.com/1112/11OKC7.HTM

http://www.82games.com/1011/10HOU7.HTM

The part that I base my defensive comparison from is the "Player 48 min production by position" and the "Opponent counter-part 48 min production."

I think Harden has the slight edge defensively, but KMart is no slouch, either.

OKC still loses big time with chemistry lost. So much of what OKC does relies on chemistry and being that they are a young team it will be VERY interesting to see how Durant and Westbrook react to this.

The good thing is that this happened at the beginning of the season, so they do have some time to integrate players - unlike with BOS when Perk was traded.

In any event, I believe the Lakers now assume Top Seed in the West. IMO, OKC takes a step back with this.

[Who]

Plus, Harden has already said he'll be signing a max extension before Wednesday.

$82 million over 5 years (Houston) vs $53-54 million over four years (OKC)

[hpantazo]

Presti was the man here. He sent a message that if guys don't take a little less for the benefit of the team they will be sent packing. He also got great return in an extremely short time with no drawn out saga. Doing the trade so quickly at the beginning of the season really helps out the team as they have more time to build chemistry and they did not spend half the season with the looming trade hanging over their heads. A+ for Presti.

[indeedproceed]

I think OKC could stand to gain in this trade if they bring Martin off the bench for scoring punch. He is not the defender that Harden is, but he can help them in the offensive regard.

Start Thabo.

Here are Martin's and Harden's comparisons from 82games.com. I still think that OKC lost in this trade, even though I understand why Presti had to make it.

http://www.82games.com/1112/11OKC7.HTM

http://www.82games.com/1011/10HOU7.HTM

The part that I base my defensive comparison from is the "Player 48 min production by position" and the "Opponent counter-part 48 min production."

I think Harden has the slight edge defensively, but KMart is no slouch, either.

OKC still loses big time with chemistry lost. So much of what OKC does relies on chemistry and being that they are a young team it will be VERY interesting to see how Durant and Westbrook react to this.

The good thing is that this happened at the beginning of the season, so they do have some time to integrate players - unlike with BOS when Perk was traded.

In any event, I believe the Lakers now assume Top Seed in the West. IMO, OKC takes a step back with this.

Those are not the numbers I was expecting at all. Kevin Martin has one of the worst defensive reputations in the league, but even John Hollinger came to your own conclusions (that he's passable).

Martin took 259 shots at the rim in 2010-11. Last season he took 63. Yes, he played half as many minutes, but even after adjusting for the playing time this was a staggering decline. After a season in which he outscored every shooting guard in the league on a per-minute basis, Martin spent much of 2011-12 as a spot-up shooter. His prolific free-throw rate cratered too -- from 8.4 a game to just 4.5 -- and as a result Martin's normally phenomenal true shooting percentage was pretty ordinary last season.

It didn't help that the spot-up shooting didn't work out so great either; Martin made only 34.7 percent of his 3s. A 42.5 percent mark on long 2s was more in line with his history, and his assist and turnovers were some of the best of his career. As a result, he was still a fairly effective offensive player ... he just wasn't the lethal, highly efficient killer he'd been a year earlier.

Martin also missed 26 games, contributing to a worrisome trend: He's missed at least 20 games in four of the past five seasons. Even the pros were cons last year; Martin had a career-high assist ratio but also had some of the league's cheapest dimes.

Defensively, at least, he showed some positive signs. Martin normally ranks among the league's most flammable defenders, but last season he was passable. Not great, but passable. The Rockets gave up 1.0 points per 100 possessions more with him on the court and Synergy gave him poor grades, but opposing shooting guards had just a 12.6 PER against him.

[Eja117]

I think they HAVE to get something pretty good out of Lamb to sell this trade.  I think the idea would be maybe to move Thabo to backup sf and give him like 12 mins a game there and try to save Durant's legs a little. Then give Martin like 32ish mins at sg and Lamb the rest.  Balance it well. See how things fit. 

I think we'll find out a few things about some players here.

Let's see how Martin does with Durant and Westbrook to take away so much defensive attention.

Let's see how Harden does getting a lot more passes and a lot more attention

[coco]

Not sure why OKC didn't just amnesty Perkins this summer.

Good thing they didn't.  Now that DHoward is a Laker, keeping KPerkins is a good move.

As for the trade, I think OKC came out on top.  JLamb is really good and can fill it up.  KMartin is not a scrubb either, then you add the picks and my Lord....what a steal!

OKC will be fine.