James Harden Traded To Rockets. REACTION!!! (merged)

[nickagneta]

Oklahoma should be able to re-sign Kevin Martin for $8-10 million per annum.

If Lamb develops, I see them moving Martin later in the season.

I would be surprised if Lamb gets it together that quickly. I can imagine this happening a year or two down the road but I would be shocked if it happened this year.

Very tough for a rookie (late lotto pick, mid first rounder) to play well enough to discard a player like Kevin Martin.

I read some comments from McHale on Lamb about a week ago. It didn't sound like Lamb was ready to contribute to the Rockets this season. Made Lamb out as very inexperienced and had a lot to learn before he was ready to help.

The point is if the Thunder see development this year to the point where they think he will be a rotational player next year, then it makes sense to move Martin this year for an asset rather than letting him go in the off season as, if Lamb is looking like he will develop, Martin for a multiple year contract would be redundant.

I also don't see Presti investing in a guy with an injury history as bad as Martin's.

[bfrombleacher]

I can understand trading Harden before hit salary skyrockets but there wan't a better trade they could get than Kevin Martin and draft picks?  This is horrible for OKC.  Player like Harden don't come around often.

He is good enough that they should have been able to include him in a package with Perk to get a better center or power forward.

Harden and Perk for Josh Smith and filler would have made more sense.  While it might help OKC in the future they threw away a chance to be a championship team now.  It clearly drops them a notch.

They'd have the same problem with Josh Smith.

[Who]

Oklahoma should be able to re-sign Kevin Martin for $8-10 million per annum.

If Lamb develops, I see them moving Martin later in the season.

I would be surprised if Lamb gets it together that quickly. I can imagine this happening a year or two down the road but I would be shocked if it happened this year.

Very tough for a rookie (late lotto pick, mid first rounder) to play well enough to discard a player like Kevin Martin.

I read some comments from McHale on Lamb about a week ago. It didn't sound like Lamb was ready to contribute to the Rockets this season. Made Lamb out as very inexperienced and had a lot to learn before he was ready to help.

The point is if the Thunder see development this year to the point where they think he will be a rotational player next year, then it makes sense to move Martin this year for an asset rather than letting him go in the off season as, if Lamb is looking like he will develop, Martin for a multiple year contract would be redundant.

I just can't see Lamb proving enough in such a short space of time to convince OKC to discard Kevin Martin.

I don't think showing himself (Lamb) as a rotation worthy player next season is enough. I think Lamb will need to show he has the potential to be a bonafide above average starter (to make it worth the risk of moving/losing Kevin Martin) ... and I am very doubtful about Lamb's ability to prove that prior to this year's trade deadline. Just not enough time. Comes up too soon. Only a few months away (4 months?).

If it's just a rotation caliber wing player they want, they can always pickup a Courtney Lee type for the MLE in free agency. In that case, I don't think Lamb really figures into it ... more that they just don't want anything to do with Kevin Martin (at his pay level) over the medium/long term.

I also don't see Presti investing in a guy with an injury history as bad as Martin's.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Presti invested in Perk when Perk had just returned from injury and was clearly still out of sorts physically. Still doesn't look like he has fully recovered from that injury.

I don't think it's clear either way.

[RyNye]

I am amazed that there are people that think Martin is at all an effective replacement for Harden.

Last season, Martin shot 41.3% from the field.
Harden shot 49.1%.

Martin is going to play approximately the same role as Harden, which means he will get the same number of minutes and touches. Since he is a whopping 8 percentage points less efficient a scorer, he will produce less by default.

Seriously, do you people not understand how basketball works? You can't say that K-Mart averaged 23 points a game and just plug that production onto the Thunder. Scoring is about how many points you get per unit playing time, which relies on shooting a higher percentage.

Harden took 15.5 shot attempts per game last season. Martin is not going to get significantly more than that, since he will be playing the same off-the-bench scoring role. Since Martin shoots worse than Harden, he will produce fewer points.

And that isn't even getting into the fact that Harden is a better rebounder, passer, and defender.

Terrible trade for OKC, at least for this season (though Lamb and other picks may work out long-term, this really hurts this this year)

[Who]

There was an article recently about the large number of expiring contracts available this season. Saying that the value of those contracts would be less this season due to the large supply of them.

The Thunder got enough assets from Houston (Raptors pick, Lamb + their own Perry Jones) to use as further incentives jump to the top of the expiring contract pile ... but in trades like this you are generally talking about teams who are trying to get rid of a bad long term contract, so would OKC really be in the position to take on a contract that burdensome?

They just parted with James Harden because they couldn't.

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They could be better off just keeping what they have and developing their young guys. Sign Kevin Martin to a three year contract (at $10 million per annum). Then let Martin go when young guys like Lamb and Perry Jones are ready to take larger roles in the team.

[nickagneta]

Lets not forget that Harden did a lot of playmaking and brought the ball up for OKC quite a bit when he was on the floor and Westbrook was off. Martin just doesn't have the same abilities on this end that Harden did. I think it will be a decent step backward this year.

That said, I think Lamb, if he asserts himself, could be a heck of a pickup for OKC long term.

[nickagneta]

BTW, the 2nd round pick that OKC got, was that the Charlotte pick that went to Boston in the Perk trade and then to Houston in the Lee trade? That could be pick #31-33 given how bad Charlotte is. That could be a heck of a good pick as could Houston's first rounder.

[Roy H.]

BTW, the 2nd round pick that OKC got, was that the Charlotte pick that went to Boston in the Perk trade and then to Houston in the Lee trade? That could be pick #31-33 given how bad Charlotte is. That could be a heck of a good pick as could Houston's first rounder.

Yeah, I'm curious to see what the picks are.  Did Houston hold on to the #1 they own from Toronto?

[Who]

Last season, Martin shot 41.3% from the field.
Harden shot 49.1%.

Martin is going to play approximately the same role as Harden, which means he will get the same number of minutes and touches. Since he is a whopping 8 percentage points less efficient a scorer, he will produce less by default.

This got me thinking about free throws.

James Harden and Kevin Martin are both hugely efficient scorers. Kevin Martin has been above 60% TS% five times in his career. Harden has been at 60+% for the last year and a half since Jeff Green was traded.

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So I was just thinking ...

• Kevin Martin is terrific at getting to the FT line. He led the NBA in free throws made two years ago and was the leader in free throws made per game a couple of years before that. A regular sight in the top ten for FTs made even with all his injury problems. Regularly gets around 7-8 FTAs per game and makes 6-7 of them.
• Kevin Durant led the league in free throws made for the past three years (tied with Kev Martin two seasons ago). Averages 8 FTAs per game and makes 7 for his career.
• Russell Westbrook is the second best PG (or the best, if you don't count Tyreke Evans as a PG) in the league at getting points in the paint. Draws lots of fouls. Westbrook has been in the top five for FTs made for the past two years. Got 6.3 FTAs last year and made 5.2 of them.

That is pretty darn impressive.

Harden was no slouch himself. Another guy who has been very good at getting to the FT line. Oh, Harden was actually in the top ten last year too. Surprised at that ... that Harden got that high from a bench role. That is very impressive. So not much of a difference but still pretty amazing to have three guys that good at getting to the FT line on the same team.

[Who]

BTW, the 2nd round pick that OKC got, was that the Charlotte pick that went to Boston in the Perk trade and then to Houston in the Lee trade? That could be pick #31-33 given how bad Charlotte is. That could be a heck of a good pick as could Houston's first rounder.

Yeah, I'm curious to see what the picks are.  Did Houston hold on to the #1 they own from Toronto?

It was the 2013 Raptors pick (top 3 protected) and 2013 Mavericks pick (top 20 protected) + that 2013 Bobcats second rounder.

Houston kept their own selection.

[LooseCannon]

Is anyone arguing that Presti could have gotten more for Harden?  I'm not, but I am curious if anyone is.

If Harden does not re-sign with Houston so that this deal ends up being a rental, how does this deal look for Houston?

[hwangjini_1]

BTW, the 2nd round pick that OKC got, was that the Charlotte pick that went to Boston in the Perk trade and then to Houston in the Lee trade? That could be pick #31-33 given how bad Charlotte is. That could be a heck of a good pick as could Houston's first rounder.

Yeah, I'm curious to see what the picks are.  Did Houston hold on to the #1 they own from Toronto?

It was the 2013 Raptors pick (top 3 protected) and 2013 Mavericks pick (top 20 protected) + that 2013 Bobcats second rounder.

Houston kept their own selection.

yes. also, i believe that the raptors pick is top 3 protected in 2013, top 2 protected in 2014, and top 1 protected in 2015. after that, i dont know what happens.

but in all likelihood, OKC will receive the lottery pick in either 2013 or 2014 given how p--- poor charlotte is these days.

[BballTim]

I am amazed that there are people that think Martin is at all an effective replacement for Harden.

Last season, Martin shot 41.3% from the field.
Harden shot 49.1%.

Martin is going to play approximately the same role as Harden, which means he will get the same number of minutes and touches. Since he is a whopping 8 percentage points less efficient a scorer, he will produce less by default.

Seriously, do you people not understand how basketball works? You can't say that K-Mart averaged 23 points a game and just plug that production onto the Thunder. Scoring is about how many points you get per unit playing time, which relies on shooting a higher percentage.

  Aside from the fact that Martin had a lower than usual fg% because of a shoulder injury that affected his play, the way basketball works is that Martin was the #1 offensive option in Houston, so a) he commanded a lot of attention from the defense and b) he had to force up a lot of shots when the offense broke down. Now he'll generally be the 2nd or 3rd option, command less attention from the defense, and force up fewer shots when the offense breaks down, so it's likely that his fg% will be higher than it's been in the past. Just like how PP and Ray both took fewer shots and made a higher percentage of them when they were put on the same team.

[BballTim]

Lets not forget that Harden did a lot of playmaking and brought the ball up for OKC quite a bit when he was on the floor and Westbrook was off. Martin just doesn't have the same abilities on this end that Harden did. I think it will be a decent step backward this year.

That said, I think Lamb, if he asserts himself, could be a heck of a pickup for OKC long term.

  I think that the ballhandling when Westbrook's out will go to Maynor, who missed most of last season.

[hwangjini_1]

I am amazed that there are people that think Martin is at all an effective replacement for Harden.

Last season, Martin shot 41.3% from the field.
Harden shot 49.1%.

Martin is going to play approximately the same role as Harden, which means he will get the same number of minutes and touches. Since he is a whopping 8 percentage points less efficient a scorer, he will produce less by default.

Seriously, do you people not understand how basketball works? You can't say that K-Mart averaged 23 points a game and just plug that production onto the Thunder. Scoring is about how many points you get per unit playing time, which relies on shooting a higher percentage.

  Aside from the fact that Martin had a lower than usual fg% because of a shoulder injury that affected his play, the way basketball works is that Martin was the #1 offensive option in Houston, so a) he commanded a lot of attention from the defense and b) he had to force up a lot of shots when the offense broke down. Now he'll generally be the 2nd or 3rd option, command less attention from the defense, and force up fewer shots when the offense breaks down, so it's likely that his fg% will be higher than it's been in the past. Just like how PP and Ray both took fewer shots and made a higher percentage of them when they were put on the same team.

good points above. just to add to the discussion...

offensively, both players are very good, though i agree harden may be seen the better of the two when we consider their ages. harden could be growing better, martin could be facing a decline. however, this does not mean that marting is a slug offensively. not at all.

the real significant differences i see are...

1. harden is by far a better defender than martin. martin is know as a weak defender so OKC will have to figure out a way to coverup this loss somehow.

2. martin has a history of injuries. in the past 6 years he has played in:
61 games
51 games
22 games
24 games
80 games
40 games

in only 1 out of the last 6 years has he played close to a full season. not good.

but having said all that, martin's role was to produce much of the scoring in houston and carry the team offensively. in OKC, not so much will be expected of him. Durant and westbrook will make sure of that. maybe martin's health will hold up when he doesnt have to produce so many points and defenses dont focus as much on him. he may also increase he efficiency. we will have to see about that.

also, it is likely that the charlotte draft pick will be in the 4-6 range next year. this may allow OKC to pick up a great young player who compliments durant and westbrook. a number of good power forwards should be available. so, martin maybe more of a bridge than a permanent fixture.

in any case, this is a really bold move by OKC and houston. i am really curious as to how it works out.