Doc takes Blame for Ray leavin

[Chris]

So, I am suggesting he decided to uproot his family one last time.  To the city he wants to stay in.  When he can do it during the summer, rather than during the school year.  And do it while his kids are still young, rather than in 3 years, when they will be older, and more established in school/etc.

According to his statements, he still plans to maintain his offseason home in New England. So I don't think this is it.

Right, summer in new england, school year in Miami. 

This is just a guess on your part, it's not substantiated by evidence, just your gut.

All of this is guesses on all of our parts.  No one other than Ray knows the real story here.  And I wouldn't be surprised if even he couldn't distill it down all that well.

[colincb]

I've yet to hear anything negative about Ray as a team mate (and I've heard ex-players speak very favorably about him) and yet to hear anything positive about Rondo.  Not once.

Allow me to introduce you to Rondo's teammate, the Reverend Keyon Dooling:

There were a lot of people who didn't necessarily talk before the game. John Stockton was a guy who never talked before the game, never signed autographs or anything like that and he was known as a gentleman and a saint so the spin that Rondo has is definitely a misconception. If you ask the guys in the locker room, I'd tell you that everybody is with him. If I have to go down a dark alley, I want to go down there with him. As a matter of fact, behind him because he's a great leader … I think he has pure passion for the game. He loves the game, he's a thinker of the game, he's a student of the game, he's a historian of the game. He wants to be special. He wants to quietly leave his mark on this league and he wants to kind of do it his way … He's a reserved guy. Don't allow people to tell you that this guy is a jerk or an **** because he's quiet and he doesn't want to talk before games or he doesn't have this superman personality, this Dwight Howard personality.

Everyone's with Rondo?  That's pretty funny as Doc has said otherwise, Ray by all accounts wasn't on the same page, and Rondo's been described as a diva according to unnamed team mates. But for Rondo, I suspect Keyon's looking for a new gig this year. Be that as it may, you have unearthed a highly favorable report as to Rondo's character albeit from an impeachable source.

[BballTim]

 Celts non-Rondo assisted makes/opportunities: 935/2650 = 35.3%
 Celts Rondo-assisted makes/opportunities: 231/413 = 55.9%
 Difference: 20.6%."

  According to 82games, the typical increase in scoring likelihood from an assist vs a non-assist is 8%. But in any case the Celts were just over 70% more likely to convert a scoring chance that came from a Rondo pass than they were otherwise.

  I'd say the results warrant Rondo having the ball in his hands.

Some of this could be due to the fact that a Rondo-assisted basket means that the play worked, in terms of getting the first option a good look.

If the play fails, the first option needs to pass to the second option for a worse shot, or we go into "hero" mode. Lower assist rate in either case.

I'm not saying I disagree with your overall point, btw. Just to take these numbers with a grain of salt.

  Rondo getting an assist doesn't necessarily mean that the play "worked or the first option got the shot, and it doesn't include the "hockey assists" that he gets, where he forces a mismatch and swings the ball around to Ray or Paul to make the entry pass.

[BballTim]

Personally, I think Doc's reaction here is pretty narcistic.  Although that is also human nature.  Whenever someone close to us leaves on bad terms, our thoughts naturally go to "what did I do?".
 

Disagree. I think Doc is getting this out there to:

1. Take the focus off the other players (Rondo) and put the focus on himself, to avoid drama.

2. Get out in front of the story as much as possible before the start of the season, to minimize the media circus and gossip before game 1.

3. Let everyone know that the team he ran out there for the last 30 games of the 2012 season is the one he believes in this season.

Doc knows that things other than Doc Rivers were important in Ray's decision.

But he also knows that three more months of teeth-gnashing and speculation about Ray Allen, and Ray vs. Rondo, etc., will be bad for his team.

He's just being smart about the politics of it all, IMO.

Pretty much my thinking.  Rondo's got a pretty bad rep around the NBA as a Richard, especially compared to Ray, that I think Doc wanted to take some heat off of him. Doc's very popular, so he can afford to place himself in opposition to Ray.

  People here have no real idea about what Rondo or Ray's reputations are around the league, just like they had no idea that much of what we've heard about Ray over the last month or two were at all likely to be true.

I actually think Ray's biggest beef was with Danny FWIW.  DA's constant talk about breaking up the Big 3 wasn't too bright, the frequent trade rumors about Ray, Rondo, Pierce et al weren't smart, and the botched panic trade with Memphis wasn't DA's finest hour either.  Why it never crossed anyone's mind that Mayo (AND Ray) would have to in effect approve the deal beforehand is puzzling.

  Why was Ray to Memphis for Mayo and a pick a panic move?

I've yet to hear anything negative about Ray as a team mate (and I've heard ex-players speak very favorably about him) and yet to hear anything positive about Rondo.  Not once.  Doc himself has been pretty clear about Rondo's difficulties in the past and we've seen him act like a jerk more than once.

  You must not have been paying much attention since Ray hit free agency. There was talk that he was upset that he made less money than PP or KG, that he had to take a smaller role on offense, that he didn't get enough touches, that he wasn't starting and that the team worried more about bringing back KG than him. I probably missed a few items, that's off of the top of my head. Do those all seem like the traits of a good team mate? Or are you saying you've heard none of this before?

[Interceptor]

All of this is guesses on all of our parts.  No one other than Ray knows the real story here.  And I wouldn't be surprised if even he couldn't distill it down all that well.

This is a false equivalence, in my opinion. If someone says that the world is flat, the take-away is not "views differ on the shape of the planet". The arrows here are pointing in a very distinct direction. While the smoke may be from a prankster who set up a fog machine, in reality it's probably a fire.

Allen had his chance to make his case. The difference between his mealy-mouthed explanation and JO's, is that JO was frank about his dissatisfaction with his role in the Celtics offense. It's been three weeks, and the list of teammates defending Allen has expanded from "Nobody" to "No really, it's Nobody".

[Chris]

All of this is guesses on all of our parts.  No one other than Ray knows the real story here.  And I wouldn't be surprised if even he couldn't distill it down all that well.

This is a false equivalence, in my opinion. If someone says that the world is flat, the take-away is not "views differ on the shape of the planet". The arrows here are pointing in a very distinct direction. While the smoke may be from a prankster who set up a fog machine, in reality it's probably a fire.

Allen had his chance to make his case. The difference between his mealy-mouthed explanation and JO's, is that JO was frank about his dissatisfaction with his role in the Celtics offense. It's been three weeks, and the list of teammates defending Allen has expanded from "Nobody" to "No really, it's Nobody".

No, this is all guess work.  And I think you are also misunderstanding, or mischaracterizing what I am saying here.

I am by no means saying the things Doc talked about having to do with Ray's issues on the court with the C's played a role in his decision.  I am just saying that I believe that the actual destination, and in particular, what I believe was a greater sense of security, and a feeling that he would not be traded by Miami (which he was not getting from Boston), played a MUCH larger role.

It is speculation, just like everything you have said.  And we all have evidence to point to our speculation, but it is speculation nonetheless. 

[colincb]

Personally, I think Doc's reaction here is pretty narcistic.  Although that is also human nature.  Whenever someone close to us leaves on bad terms, our thoughts naturally go to "what did I do?".
 

Disagree. I think Doc is getting this out there to:

1. Take the focus off the other players (Rondo) and put the focus on himself, to avoid drama.

2. Get out in front of the story as much as possible before the start of the season, to minimize the media circus and gossip before game 1.

3. Let everyone know that the team he ran out there for the last 30 games of the 2012 season is the one he believes in this season.

Doc knows that things other than Doc Rivers were important in Ray's decision.

But he also knows that three more months of teeth-gnashing and speculation about Ray Allen, and Ray vs. Rondo, etc., will be bad for his team.

He's just being smart about the politics of it all, IMO.

Pretty much my thinking.  Rondo's got a pretty bad rep around the NBA as a Richard, especially compared to Ray, that I think Doc wanted to take some heat off of him. Doc's very popular, so he can afford to place himself in opposition to Ray.

  People here have no real idea about what Rondo or Ray's reputations are around the league, just like they had no idea that much of what we've heard about Ray over the last month or two were at all likely to be true.

I actually think Ray's biggest beef was with Danny FWIW.  DA's constant talk about breaking up the Big 3 wasn't too bright, the frequent trade rumors about Ray, Rondo, Pierce et al weren't smart, and the botched panic trade with Memphis wasn't DA's finest hour either.  Why it never crossed anyone's mind that Mayo (AND Ray) would have to in effect approve the deal beforehand is puzzling.

  Why was Ray to Memphis for Mayo and a pick a panic move?

I've yet to hear anything negative about Ray as a team mate (and I've heard ex-players speak very favorably about him) and yet to hear anything positive about Rondo.  Not once.  Doc himself has been pretty clear about Rondo's difficulties in the past and we've seen him act like a jerk more than once.

  You must not have been paying much attention since Ray hit free agency. There was talk that he was upset that he made less money than PP or KG, that he had to take a smaller role on offense, that he didn't get enough touches, that he wasn't starting and that the team worried more about bringing back KG than him. I probably missed a few items, that's off of the top of my head. Do those all seem like the traits of a good team mate? Or are you saying you've heard none of this before?

I follow the Cs very closely. Since you're so plugged in, outside of the Washburn story about Allen being unhappy with the botched Grizzlies trade, how much were you aware of before Ray went into free agency and how much has he said publicly confirming your claims?

[cman88]

well, Wyc said he would be all for a no-trade clause, and alluded that Rays contract demands were real..im going with Wyc on this.

i dont get it, we are supposed to "not believe" the claims in articles by Woj/washburn that state reasons allen was un-happy and his

but are supposed to believe it is gospel about Rondo...even when those rumors come from same writers/sources

is this a Celtics blog, or a Ray allen one? I wonder if half the posters defending him so hard are going to do so when he starts hitting shots against the C's in our quest for #18

doc made decisions that were better for the team. he said even before starting bradley that he was thinking of starting pietrus and bringing allen off the bench to give it a scoring punch.

lots of great NBA players come off the bench...Terry, Ginobli, harden.

Ray simply cared more about his ego than what is best for the team. why start Allen just to appease him if it makes our chances that much less at #18??? because that is all that should matter...winning games and winning banner #18

[BballTim]

Personally, I think Doc's reaction here is pretty narcistic.  Although that is also human nature.  Whenever someone close to us leaves on bad terms, our thoughts naturally go to "what did I do?".
 

Disagree. I think Doc is getting this out there to:

1. Take the focus off the other players (Rondo) and put the focus on himself, to avoid drama.

2. Get out in front of the story as much as possible before the start of the season, to minimize the media circus and gossip before game 1.

3. Let everyone know that the team he ran out there for the last 30 games of the 2012 season is the one he believes in this season.

Doc knows that things other than Doc Rivers were important in Ray's decision.

But he also knows that three more months of teeth-gnashing and speculation about Ray Allen, and Ray vs. Rondo, etc., will be bad for his team.

He's just being smart about the politics of it all, IMO.

Pretty much my thinking.  Rondo's got a pretty bad rep around the NBA as a Richard, especially compared to Ray, that I think Doc wanted to take some heat off of him. Doc's very popular, so he can afford to place himself in opposition to Ray.

  People here have no real idea about what Rondo or Ray's reputations are around the league, just like they had no idea that much of what we've heard about Ray over the last month or two were at all likely to be true.

I actually think Ray's biggest beef was with Danny FWIW.  DA's constant talk about breaking up the Big 3 wasn't too bright, the frequent trade rumors about Ray, Rondo, Pierce et al weren't smart, and the botched panic trade with Memphis wasn't DA's finest hour either.  Why it never crossed anyone's mind that Mayo (AND Ray) would have to in effect approve the deal beforehand is puzzling.

  Why was Ray to Memphis for Mayo and a pick a panic move?

I've yet to hear anything negative about Ray as a team mate (and I've heard ex-players speak very favorably about him) and yet to hear anything positive about Rondo.  Not once.  Doc himself has been pretty clear about Rondo's difficulties in the past and we've seen him act like a jerk more than once.

  You must not have been paying much attention since Ray hit free agency. There was talk that he was upset that he made less money than PP or KG, that he had to take a smaller role on offense, that he didn't get enough touches, that he wasn't starting and that the team worried more about bringing back KG than him. I probably missed a few items, that's off of the top of my head. Do those all seem like the traits of a good team mate? Or are you saying you've heard none of this before?

I follow the Cs very closely. Since you're so plugged in, outside of the Washburn story about Allen being unhappy with the botched Grizzlies trade, how much were you aware of before Ray went into free agency and how much has he said publicly confirming your claims?

  First of all, you just claimed that you've yet to hear anything negative about Ray as a teammate, I'm just wondering about whether you've never heard any of the points that I brought up, whether you don't think that any of them would mean Ray was a bad teammate, or whether you don't believe any of it to be true.

  And while I'd see the occasional clash between Ray and Rondo on the court, it's true that I wasn't aware of all of this before he went into free agency. Which, of course, was my point. People here don't have a lot of insight into the team, much of what they say is guesswork bolstered to something assumed to be true by people here who agree with them.

[European NBA fan]

I still don't get why some people still want to put blame on Rondo. Right before Ray's decision, KG said to Ray, that Danny would come through. Unless KG meant trading Rondo (which he obviously didn't), he didn't see anything unmendable in the locker room or on the court. And KG was one of the guys that Ray actually talked to. So I think that Doc's comments make more sense than anything else.

[celticsleyte]

Personally, I think Doc's reaction here is pretty narcistic.  Although that is also human nature.  Whenever someone close to us leaves on bad terms, our thoughts naturally go to "what did I do?".
 

Disagree. I think Doc is getting this out there to:

1. Take the focus off the other players (Rondo) and put the focus on himself, to avoid drama.

2. Get out in front of the story as much as possible before the start of the season, to minimize the media circus and gossip before game 1.

3. Let everyone know that the team he ran out there for the last 30 games of the 2012 season is the one he believes in this season.

Doc knows that things other than Doc Rivers were important in Ray's decision.

But he also knows that three more months of teeth-gnashing and speculation about Ray Allen, and Ray vs. Rondo, etc., will be bad for his team.

He's just being smart about the politics of it all, IMO.

Doc is putting a good spin on it.  Kinda like handling an interview question about your weaknesses and making yourself sound like your faults actually lead to a better bottom line for the company.  Frankly, at this point in time the Celtics are better off without Ray and as I have stated before in other threads Doc's job just got a lot easier.  A team needs only so much veteran leadership the Celtics have enough without Ray.  Our defense should be improved.  Our offense could go in either direction with other players getting more looks.

[2short]

 Celts non-Rondo assisted makes/opportunities: 935/2650 = 35.3%
 Celts Rondo-assisted makes/opportunities: 231/413 = 55.9%
 Difference: 20.6%."

  According to 82games, the typical increase in scoring likelihood from an assist vs a non-assist is 8%. But in any case the Celts were just over 70% more likely to convert a scoring chance that came from a Rondo pass than they were otherwise.

  I'd say the results warrant Rondo having the ball in his hands.

Some of this could be due to the fact that a Rondo-assisted basket means that the play worked, in terms of getting the first option a good look.

If the play fails, the first option needs to pass to the second option for a worse shot, or we go into "hero" mode. Lower assist rate in either case.

I'm not saying I disagree with your overall point, btw. Just to take these numbers with a grain of salt.

  Rondo getting an assist doesn't necessarily mean that the play "worked or the first option got the shot, and it doesn't include the "hockey assists" that he gets, where he forces a mismatch and swings the ball around to Ray or Paul to make the entry pass.

I'm a bit tired and not agree/disagree with either post but thought on the subject I'd add:
on more than a few occasions (quite a few really) the ball would be put into miss match by rondo and player A would kick it out, rondo knowing the mismatch would put ball right back in and bark something
sure it might hurt some by having a younger guy point out mistakes but this is the pros
side note: this was never ray but definitely bass and other guys
my point is rondo is a very smart basketball mind

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

Some people are speculating on what Ray's reasoning was... Doc clearly said more than once what Ray told him that reasoning was... the only way Doc could be wrong (because it isn't speculation if he says Ray TOLD him), is if he is telling a lie! The ones speculating on here don't even know Ray and probably never even got a shot out on Twitter from him... NO, your speculation on the matter is not the same as if Doc was speculating, he actually KNOWS him personally!!

[colincb]

Personally, I think Doc's reaction here is pretty narcistic.  Although that is also human nature.  Whenever someone close to us leaves on bad terms, our thoughts naturally go to "what did I do?".
 

Disagree. I think Doc is getting this out there to:

1. Take the focus off the other players (Rondo) and put the focus on himself, to avoid drama.

2. Get out in front of the story as much as possible before the start of the season, to minimize the media circus and gossip before game 1.

3. Let everyone know that the team he ran out there for the last 30 games of the 2012 season is the one he believes in this season.

Doc knows that things other than Doc Rivers were important in Ray's decision.

But he also knows that three more months of teeth-gnashing and speculation about Ray Allen, and Ray vs. Rondo, etc., will be bad for his team.

He's just being smart about the politics of it all, IMO.

Pretty much my thinking.  Rondo's got a pretty bad rep around the NBA as a Richard, especially compared to Ray, that I think Doc wanted to take some heat off of him. Doc's very popular, so he can afford to place himself in opposition to Ray.

  People here have no real idea about what Rondo or Ray's reputations are around the league, just like they had no idea that much of what we've heard about Ray over the last month or two were at all likely to be true.

I actually think Ray's biggest beef was with Danny FWIW.  DA's constant talk about breaking up the Big 3 wasn't too bright, the frequent trade rumors about Ray, Rondo, Pierce et al weren't smart, and the botched panic trade with Memphis wasn't DA's finest hour either.  Why it never crossed anyone's mind that Mayo (AND Ray) would have to in effect approve the deal beforehand is puzzling.

  Why was Ray to Memphis for Mayo and a pick a panic move?

I've yet to hear anything negative about Ray as a team mate (and I've heard ex-players speak very favorably about him) and yet to hear anything positive about Rondo.  Not once.  Doc himself has been pretty clear about Rondo's difficulties in the past and we've seen him act like a jerk more than once.

  You must not have been paying much attention since Ray hit free agency. There was talk that he was upset that he made less money than PP or KG, that he had to take a smaller role on offense, that he didn't get enough touches, that he wasn't starting and that the team worried more about bringing back KG than him. I probably missed a few items, that's off of the top of my head. Do those all seem like the traits of a good team mate? Or are you saying you've heard none of this before?

I follow the Cs very closely. Since you're so plugged in, outside of the Washburn story about Allen being unhappy with the botched Grizzlies trade, how much were you aware of before Ray went into free agency and how much has he said publicly confirming your claims?

  First of all, you just claimed that you've yet to hear anything negative about Ray as a teammate, I'm just wondering about whether you've never heard any of the points that I brought up, whether you don't think that any of them would mean Ray was a bad teammate, or whether you don't believe any of it to be true.

  And while I'd see the occasional clash between Ray and Rondo on the court, it's true that I wasn't aware of all of this before he went into free agency. Which, of course, was my point. People here don't have a lot of insight into the team, much of what they say is guesswork bolstered to something assumed to be true by people here who agree with them.

I still have yet to hear anyone in basketball say anything bad about Ray as a team mate.  He didn't sabotage the team in the press.  He wasn't a problem in the clubhouse.  He didn't sulk and give less than best effort.

He played hurt even after apparently deciding he wanted out. He still went out and did his ridiculous OCD pre-game routine and as the playoffs went on he was able to overcome some, though not all, of the effects of his injury on his long established muscle memory. I saw nothing and have yet to hear anything that Ray has done with the Celtics or any other team that hurt his team.  Several Celtics stated that they weren't even aware that he was dissatisfied after he had announced his decision.

We might not like why he left or to where he went, but there' not a shred of evidence that he was a bad teammate as you imply.

[BballTim]

Personally, I think Doc's reaction here is pretty narcistic.  Although that is also human nature.  Whenever someone close to us leaves on bad terms, our thoughts naturally go to "what did I do?".
 

Disagree. I think Doc is getting this out there to:

1. Take the focus off the other players (Rondo) and put the focus on himself, to avoid drama.

2. Get out in front of the story as much as possible before the start of the season, to minimize the media circus and gossip before game 1.

3. Let everyone know that the team he ran out there for the last 30 games of the 2012 season is the one he believes in this season.

Doc knows that things other than Doc Rivers were important in Ray's decision.

But he also knows that three more months of teeth-gnashing and speculation about Ray Allen, and Ray vs. Rondo, etc., will be bad for his team.

He's just being smart about the politics of it all, IMO.

Pretty much my thinking.  Rondo's got a pretty bad rep around the NBA as a Richard, especially compared to Ray, that I think Doc wanted to take some heat off of him. Doc's very popular, so he can afford to place himself in opposition to Ray.

  People here have no real idea about what Rondo or Ray's reputations are around the league, just like they had no idea that much of what we've heard about Ray over the last month or two were at all likely to be true.

I actually think Ray's biggest beef was with Danny FWIW.  DA's constant talk about breaking up the Big 3 wasn't too bright, the frequent trade rumors about Ray, Rondo, Pierce et al weren't smart, and the botched panic trade with Memphis wasn't DA's finest hour either.  Why it never crossed anyone's mind that Mayo (AND Ray) would have to in effect approve the deal beforehand is puzzling.

  Why was Ray to Memphis for Mayo and a pick a panic move?

I've yet to hear anything negative about Ray as a team mate (and I've heard ex-players speak very favorably about him) and yet to hear anything positive about Rondo.  Not once.  Doc himself has been pretty clear about Rondo's difficulties in the past and we've seen him act like a jerk more than once.

  You must not have been paying much attention since Ray hit free agency. There was talk that he was upset that he made less money than PP or KG, that he had to take a smaller role on offense, that he didn't get enough touches, that he wasn't starting and that the team worried more about bringing back KG than him. I probably missed a few items, that's off of the top of my head. Do those all seem like the traits of a good team mate? Or are you saying you've heard none of this before?

I follow the Cs very closely. Since you're so plugged in, outside of the Washburn story about Allen being unhappy with the botched Grizzlies trade, how much were you aware of before Ray went into free agency and how much has he said publicly confirming your claims?

  First of all, you just claimed that you've yet to hear anything negative about Ray as a teammate, I'm just wondering about whether you've never heard any of the points that I brought up, whether you don't think that any of them would mean Ray was a bad teammate, or whether you don't believe any of it to be true.

  And while I'd see the occasional clash between Ray and Rondo on the court, it's true that I wasn't aware of all of this before he went into free agency. Which, of course, was my point. People here don't have a lot of insight into the team, much of what they say is guesswork bolstered to something assumed to be true by people here who agree with them.

I still have yet to hear anyone in basketball say anything bad about Ray as a team mate.  He didn't sabotage the team in the press.  He wasn't a problem in the clubhouse.  He didn't sulk and give less than best effort.

He played hurt even after apparently deciding he wanted out. He still went out and did his ridiculous OCD pre-game routine and as the playoffs went on he was able to overcome some, though not all, of the effects of his injury on his long established muscle memory. I saw nothing and have yet to hear anything that Ray has done with the Celtics or any other team that hurt his team.  Several Celtics stated that they weren't even aware that he was dissatisfied after he had announced his decision.

We might not like why he left or to where he went, but there' not a shred of evidence that he was a bad teammate as you imply.

  If none of Ray being upset about not starting, having a smaller role on offense, not being valued as highly as KG or PP, or constantly clashing with a teammate makes Ray a bad teammate at all, I'd wonder what, in your opinion, does make someone a bad teammate.

  You were comparing Ray's stellar reputation around the league to Rondo's poor reputation. Where's all the evidence stronger than this about Rondo? What's he done over the last few years that's wildly worse than what we've heard about Ray?