Doc takes Blame for Ray leavin

[Interceptor]

The reports that the C's would offer a no-trade were VERY sketchy.  So, unless there was a really strong report of that, then I don't believe it, because it goes against anything Danny has done in the past.

It is perfectly consistent with Danny's behavior. We're not talking about giving a no-trade to Pierce's gigantic multi-year contract (which he rightly wouldn't go along with), we're talking 2y/12M when the Celtics are already locking up people for 3-4 years. He's not going to give something away for free, but the cost is small to him if it closes the deal. A no-trade doesn't prevent Ray from being traded, it just prevents him from being traded without his consent, so that wouldn't even preclude a mutually beneficial arrangement down the road.

I don't buy that it was too "sketchy" to rely on. If you believe that Danny wanted to keep Allen (and if he didn't, he's a hell of a good actor), it's not much of a stretch to believe that he'd cave on a trade clause or kicker as a last resort.

And the "insane counter-offer" was also a pretty sketchy report.  Just because he asked for that, doesn't mean it was actually all he would have taken.

Wyc claimed on radio that accepting Allen's offer would put them over the apron. I'm going with Wyc on this one. We skirted it pretty close as it is, and that's with other people taking paycuts and deals below their market value.

But then again, I think the counter offer is more evidence that he did choose lifestyle, and basically told the C's, they need to drastically overpay him, if he is going to stay in a situation where he doesn't really want to be in.

If you want to leave, then leave. Don't make an offer you know that they can't accept. More evidence suggesting that this was more about Allen sticking it to the org than anything else.

[Jon]

I tend to agree with the general consensus that Doc is generally trying to absorb the blame and consequently end any controversy with such a move so it doesn't affect the team. 

That said, I do somewhat question Doc's decision to bench Ray last year.  Was Ray's pride getting the best of him?  Sure.  But it's that sort of pride that makes a superstar a superstar and still allowed Ray to hit the daggers he did last year. 

Furthermore, I think people are confusing the old adage that it doesn't matter who starts a game, it matters who ends it.  That line isn't support for someone being a sixth man; it's literally saying that who starts doesn't matter at all. 

And that was my feeling on the matter.  And since who starts and who comes off the bench is really inconsequential after the first quarter, I don't know why Doc couldn't have just given Ray the KG treatment, and started him for 5 minutes, pulled him for 3-4 minutes, and then brought him back again at the end of the 1st.

Such an approach would've done two things:

1) It would've kept Ray happy.

2) It would've had Ray and KG both coming back in around the 2 minute mark in the first quarter, which would've served the exact same purpose that having a good bench would've had: it would've given the bench a boost and allowed them to return to the game right around the time most teams start bringing in their bench players. 

At this point, it's water under the bridge.  This isn't supposed to be an all out attack on Doc.  I think he's one of the better coaches in the NBA and I think most criticisms on this board of him are unfounded (for instance, the perpetual claim he's unfair to rookies).  But I think if he had just done with Ray what he did with KG, this whole issue could've been avoided and he could've had the same benefits her perceived he was getting from bringing Ray off the bench. 

[gar]

Yes, it was getting harder and harder and taking more and more time off the clock to get Ray open. In Miami he will be living at the 3pt. line not running off of screens all day. With KG taking more of the scoring load both PP and Ray saw the ball less. This will increase with Jeff Green and Wilcox coming back. That said his role will be even less in Miami. Pride goes before the fall.

[BballTim]

I knew Ray Allen had fans but I didn't know they or one of them could be so obsessive about him.  I'm even on Allen's side in regard to his dissatisfaction about his usage as I personally can't stand the ball being in one guy's hands all the time when the results don't warrant it but man, I'm not unhappy at all that Ray's gone.

  You keep saying that Rondo shouldn't have the ball all the time because the results don't warrant it. That's simply not the case.

  A month or so into the season last year a Wizards fan felt that John Wall didn't get a lot of assists because the players on his team were bad finishers. He went to the synergy sports website and checked all of Wall's passes that led to a shot attempt or probably would have if not for a turnover to see the success rate of those passes. For comparison, he did the same thing with Rondo. Here's the link:

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/3/2/2838291/rajon-rondo-missed-assist-tracker-john-wall

  Here's what he came up with about Rondo:

"Total makes by Boston so far this year: 1166 Total Makes: 2564 Total turnovers: 500
 Total non-Rondo assisted makes: 1166-231 = 935
 Total non-Rondo assisted “opportunities” (attempts + turnovers): 3063 – 413 = 2650
 Celts non-Rondo assisted makes/opportunities: 935/2650 = 35.3%
 Celts Rondo-assisted makes/opportunities: 231/413 = 55.9%
 Difference: 20.6%."

  According to 82games, the typical increase in scoring likelihood from an assist vs a non-assist is 8%. But in any case the Celts were just over 70% more likely to convert a scoring chance that came from a Rondo pass than they were otherwise.

  I'd say the results warrant Rondo having the ball in his hands.

[BballTim]

I think Ray wanted to find his final place to settle.  This is his last stop, and I think Miami is where he wants to be.  It was much less a basketball decision, than it was a decision about his life and family.

Doesn't square with 1) giving up stability of a no-trade, and 2) his insane counter-offer. Available facts best fit the "screw you" narrative.

The reports that the C's would offer a no-trade were VERY sketchy.  So, unless there was a really strong report of that, then I don't believe it, because it goes against anything Danny has done in the past.

And the "insane counter-offer" was also a pretty sketchy report.  Just because he asked for that, doesn't mean it was actually all he would have taken.

But then again, I think the counter offer is more evidence that he did choose lifestyle, and basically told the C's, they need to drastically overpay him, if he is going to stay in a situation where he doesn't really want to be in.

  I don't think it was a no trade clause that was being discussed but a trade kicker in his contract that would make it harder to trade him.

[BballTim]

I tend to agree with the general consensus that Doc is generally trying to absorb the blame and consequently end any controversy with such a move so it doesn't affect the team. 

That said, I do somewhat question Doc's decision to bench Ray last year.  Was Ray's pride getting the best of him?  Sure.  But it's that sort of pride that makes a superstar a superstar and still allowed Ray to hit the daggers he did last year. 

Furthermore, I think people are confusing the old adage that it doesn't matter who starts a game, it matters who ends it.  That line isn't support for someone being a sixth man; it's literally saying that who starts doesn't matter at all. 

And that was my feeling on the matter.  And since who starts and who comes off the bench is really inconsequential after the first quarter, I don't know why Doc couldn't have just given Ray the KG treatment, and started him for 5 minutes, pulled him for 3-4 minutes, and then brought him back again at the end of the 1st.

Such an approach would've done two things:

1) It would've kept Ray happy.

2) It would've had Ray and KG both coming back in around the 2 minute mark in the first quarter, which would've served the exact same purpose that having a good bench would've had: it would've given the bench a boost and allowed them to return to the game right around the time most teams start bringing in their bench players. 

At this point, it's water under the bridge.  This isn't supposed to be an all out attack on Doc.  I think he's one of the better coaches in the NBA and I think most criticisms on this board of him are unfounded (for instance, the perpetual claim he's unfair to rookies).  But I think if he had just done with Ray what he did with KG, this whole issue could've been avoided and he could've had the same benefits her perceived he was getting from bringing Ray off the bench.

  I thought that one of Doc's concerns was that the team was getting off to slow starts. Keeping Ray in the lineup wouldn't have helped with that.

[CelticG1]

I tend to agree with the general consensus that Doc is generally trying to absorb the blame and consequently end any controversy with such a move so it doesn't affect the team. 

That said, I do somewhat question Doc's decision to bench Ray last year.  Was Ray's pride getting the best of him?  Sure.  But it's that sort of pride that makes a superstar a superstar and still allowed Ray to hit the daggers he did last year. 

Furthermore, I think people are confusing the old adage that it doesn't matter who starts a game, it matters who ends it.  That line isn't support for someone being a sixth man; it's literally saying that who starts doesn't matter at all. 

And that was my feeling on the matter.  And since who starts and who comes off the bench is really inconsequential after the first quarter, I don't know why Doc couldn't have just given Ray the KG treatment, and started him for 5 minutes, pulled him for 3-4 minutes, and then brought him back again at the end of the 1st.

Such an approach would've done two things:

1) It would've kept Ray happy.

2) It would've had Ray and KG both coming back in around the 2 minute mark in the first quarter, which would've served the exact same purpose that having a good bench would've had: it would've given the bench a boost and allowed them to return to the game right around the time most teams start bringing in their bench players. 

At this point, it's water under the bridge.  This isn't supposed to be an all out attack on Doc.  I think he's one of the better coaches in the NBA and I think most criticisms on this board of him are unfounded (for instance, the perpetual claim he's unfair to rookies).  But I think if he had just done with Ray what he did with KG, this whole issue could've been avoided and he could've had the same benefits her perceived he was getting from bringing Ray off the bench.

I agree with you on starting Ray and how they went about demoting him.

First off Rays injury did force Docs hand a bit but a player should never lose his starting job because of injury which is what happened to Ray. Ray wasn't losing his starting spot if he never got injured.

So Doc pretty much pretty much tells everyone that AB is going to be the starter and Ray is going to be the sixth man as soon as Ray got healthy. There wasn't any wiggle room at all.

I just don't know why he said that immediately instead of letting it play out a bit, not too mention Rays first game back which he started also was Averys best game of the season and he came off the bench.

Ray proceeded to get injured not too long after but at that point he was already demoted to the bench.

I just don't see how Doc doesn't give him the benefit of the doubt their and let him try and play himself out or in the starting rotation. Maybe ray would have got injured anyway and would have been demoted to the bench by default, maybe AB would have accelerated in his role off the bench.

Doc made such a definitive claim about AB that there was no wiggle room. It was pretty much no matter how well Ray played he was going to be a bench guy and that just came out of nowhere

[Lord of Mikawa]

If Ray cared about the team, he would have taken the sixth man role. But he couldn't handle losing his job to a kid who barely played NBA ball for a year and a half. Oh well...

[GreenEnvy]

Personally, I think Doc's reaction here is pretty narcistic.  Although that is also human nature.  Whenever someone close to us leaves on bad terms, our thoughts naturally go to "what did I do?".

I think Doc is overthinking things here.  I am sure the stuff he talked about played a role.  I am sure the trade rumors did, as well as his diminished role on the team.  Ultimately though, I think this was a life decision made by a guy who can see the end.

I think Ray wanted to find his final place to settle.  This is his last stop, and I think Miami is where he wants to be.  It was much less a basketball decision, than it was a decision about his life and family.

I disagree. I think he did it strictly for basketball reasons.

His family was settled in Boston (that's one of the reasons why he was so upset about the possibility of being traded, having to uproot his kids). By all accounts, he loved New England and always considered it a home away from home when he before he came to the C's (due to his UConn rootes).

Being close to the end of his career, why would he want to find a new place to settle when he was here for 5 years? The real fans understand it was hard for him to stomach coming off the bench, and if he returned here knowing that, the fans would have appreciated him even more IMO. He could have finally had a legacy identified with a single team. If he swallowed his pride and we won with him sacrificing himself for the betterment of the team, that would not have gone unnoticed.

I'm not gonna say this was an ego thing, but he was clearly uncomfortable in the C's locker room. With Rondo, with DA, with Doc, and maybe even with Pierce/KG for not sticking up for him.

I understand his decision to leave. There were a lot of changes since he arrived here. I, like many (Doc included), was p---ed when he left. Now I get it. It's kinda like breaking up from a relationship that had soured long ago. Both Ray and the C's will be happier in the long run. I wish Ray the best (personally, not for his team), but I hope he misses every shot against us and they lose every game they play.

Kudos to Doc for opening up about everything, he didn't have to comment on it in such detail like he did.

I think the C's fawning over JET at 12:01AM was the final straw. He knew his time was diminishing with the emergence of AB. Once they ran out to sign a combo guard with their biggest chip (the MLE) instead of going for a big, he knew he would be reduced to even less time.

It's OK to go to a new team and take on that role, but to assume that same role from an organization you played a major part in rebuilding (never mind his play.. remember, if it wasn't for the acquisition of Ray, KG doesn't come here) is a tough pill to swallow. Easier to be a hired gun than be forgotten and unappreciated.

[BballTim]

Personally, I think Doc's reaction here is pretty narcistic.  Although that is also human nature.  Whenever someone close to us leaves on bad terms, our thoughts naturally go to "what did I do?".

I think Doc is overthinking things here.  I am sure the stuff he talked about played a role.  I am sure the trade rumors did, as well as his diminished role on the team.  Ultimately though, I think this was a life decision made by a guy who can see the end.

I think Ray wanted to find his final place to settle.  This is his last stop, and I think Miami is where he wants to be.  It was much less a basketball decision, than it was a decision about his life and family.

  There are only a couple of teams in the league (if there are that many) that a player like Ray can stand on the perimeter and get open because his defender leaves him alone to cover other players. On most teams he'd have to work to get open and he's not very good at that anymore.

[Chris]

I think Ray wanted to find his final place to settle.  This is his last stop, and I think Miami is where he wants to be.  It was much less a basketball decision, than it was a decision about his life and family.

Doesn't square with 1) giving up stability of a no-trade, and 2) his insane counter-offer. Available facts best fit the "screw you" narrative.

The reports that the C's would offer a no-trade were VERY sketchy.  So, unless there was a really strong report of that, then I don't believe it, because it goes against anything Danny has done in the past.

And the "insane counter-offer" was also a pretty sketchy report.  Just because he asked for that, doesn't mean it was actually all he would have taken.

But then again, I think the counter offer is more evidence that he did choose lifestyle, and basically told the C's, they need to drastically overpay him, if he is going to stay in a situation where he doesn't really want to be in.

  I don't think it was a no trade clause that was being discussed but a trade kicker in his contract that would make it harder to trade him.

Exactly.  Which never actually stops a guy from being traded.  Especially if he is only making $6 million per year.  With a 15% trade kicker, that just puts him up at $7 million. 

Ray knew that the second Danny had an opportunity, he would try to trade him again.  And he didn't want to go through that.  My guess is the Heat gave him an assurance they would never trade him without his consent.  Danny, on the other hand wouldn't have done that. 

[Boris Badenov]

Personally, I think Doc's reaction here is pretty narcistic.  Although that is also human nature.  Whenever someone close to us leaves on bad terms, our thoughts naturally go to "what did I do?".
 

Disagree. I think Doc is getting this out there to:

1. Take the focus off the other players (Rondo) and put the focus on himself, to avoid drama.

2. Get out in front of the story as much as possible before the start of the season, to minimize the media circus and gossip before game 1.

3. Let everyone know that the team he ran out there for the last 30 games of the 2012 season is the one he believes in this season.

Doc knows that things other than Doc Rivers were important in Ray's decision.

But he also knows that three more months of teeth-gnashing and speculation about Ray Allen, and Ray vs. Rondo, etc., will be bad for his team.

He's just being smart about the politics of it all, IMO.

[CelticG1]

I don't think it has anything to do with wanting to go to Miami as a life decision. I don't see any real evidence to back that up. He has at the absolute most 3 years there. He could have just moved their in 3 years. He's completely uprooting his familyfrom a community they've been deeply involved in, invested in, taking them out pf schools hospitals, his wife even had her own tv show.

I don't see how you can't look at it as personal problems/issues with the team, coach, owners and players when everything points to that.

[colincb]

Yes, it was getting harder and harder and taking more and more time off the clock to get Ray open. In Miami he will be living at the 3pt. line not running off of screens all day. With KG taking more of the scoring load both PP and Ray saw the ball less. This will increase with Jeff Green and Wilcox coming back. That said his role will be even less in Miami. Pride goes before the fall.

The bold sentence is incorrect. KG wasn't the primary reason for Ray getting less shots per game. Pierce shot 1.8 more FGA per 36 minutes last year than in the prior four years (at a lower eFG%).  KG shot 0.7 shots more FGA last year per 36 minutes than in the prior 4 years (at a lower eFG%).  Ray Allen shot 1.5 shots less per 36 minutes than the prior 4 years (at a slightly better eFG%).

Otherwise, I expect Allen's role to be pretty much the same with the Heat: one of the 5 guys on the floor at the end of games and the Heat's primary long distance threat.  That's the way the Heat are talking about Allen and given that he's still one of the top shooters in the league statistically. I don't see much to support your conclusion.  LBJ and Wade are bigger threats going to the basket than Rondo is so I suspect Ray will get plenty of open shots. 

[Lightskinsmurf]

I don't think it has anything to do with wanting to go to Miami as a life decision. I don't see any real evidence to back that up. He has at the absolute most 3 years there. He could have just moved their in 3 years. He's completely uprooting his familyfrom a community they've been deeply involved in, invested in, taking them out pf schools hospitals, his wife even had her own tv show.

I don't see how you can't look at it as personal problems/issues with the team, coach, owners and players when everything points to that.

Exactly! Its so clear on why he left and who cares !! Move on people we're a better team now ray is gone accept it. Its all about 18 not all about ray allen!