Why Are We Assuming that Ray Allen Won't Start?

[Lightskinsmurf]

Man, it's like people didn't even watch the Celtics play last year.

The Celtics were a much better defensive and offensive team with Bradley in the starting five.  Not because KG got better post-all star break, Bradley was just flat out better than Ray last year.  And no, Ray didn't have bonespurs all year and even to start the year was a sieve on defense.  Instead of Rondo having to guard the best guard and run the entire offense, Bradley was able to take some pressure off Rondo.

On top of that, Bradley isn't completely dependent on getting 3 consecutive screens and a perfect pass from Rondo to get a decent look.  He can create his own shot and make offense even when the offense is being run through another player.

Bradley is just flat out better than Ray, healthy or not.  On top of the fact Bradley is a young budding player, there is absolutely zero valid argument to be made for Ray starting over him.

You're missing the point.

This isn't just about who should start: it's if it comes down to Ray staying and starting or leaving, Ray staying and starting is better. 

No, its not.

[Tr1boy]

Man, it's like people didn't even watch the Celtics play last year.

The Celtics were a much better defensive and offensive team with Bradley in the starting five.  Not because KG got better post-all star break, Bradley was just flat out better than Ray last year.  And no, Ray didn't have bonespurs all year and even to start the year was a sieve on defense.  Instead of Rondo having to guard the best guard and run the entire offense, Bradley was able to take some pressure off Rondo.

On top of that, Bradley isn't completely dependent on getting 3 consecutive screens and a perfect pass from Rondo to get a decent look.  He can create his own shot and make offense even when the offense is being run through another player.

Bradley is just flat out better than Ray, healthy or not.  On top of the fact Bradley is a young budding player, there is absolutely zero valid argument to be made for Ray starting over him.

You're missing the point.

This isn't just about who should start: it's if it comes down to Ray staying and starting or leaving, Ray staying and starting is better.  

No, its not.

I agree. While guys like KG and PP are still bringing their A game and able to do so (relatively healthy) , ray allen can't anymore. He is still dangerous just being on the court bc you can't leave him alone, but he very close to being a 3 pt specialist right now. When was the last time you saw allen drive in for a layup, take a charge, grab a rebound, make a steal or make a FT(i mean he is one of the best at the line and its wasted).

Celtics want him back but at a reduced role than he is used to. Even if he gets to start, Bradley will or should play alot more.

We don't know why Allen and Rondo had a little beef last year, but its prob bc allen is not playing all out, yet he is on the court being a bystander .

You should not get favouritism bc you are considered a legend. That ruins the team culture and hard work/reward system for everyone else.

[gar]

Ray was injured big time. The fact that he did not like the idea of coming off the bench probably sent some negative signals to Doc and Danny. I would be worried if these reports are true. The fact that Doc did not bench him sooner was beyond me.

[CelticsFanNC]

First and foremost, if this is a question of Ray staying and starting or Ray leaving, this discussion should end now.  We're talking about the first 5-6 minutes of the game.  After that, Doc can adjust his rotations however he sees fit.  

Second of all, I think the perceived change that Bradley brought to the starting unit was only partly his doing.

Don't get me wrong.  I like Bradley and I like him a lot.  I think he has star potential.  

However, at the time he was breaking into the starting unit, other things began to happen that had nothing to do with Bradley.  

First and foremost, KG started to turn it around and have his own personal renaissance.  Second, PP finally got his butt into shape after the lockout.  

On top of this, when Ray came back, he was Ray with bone spurs, making Bradley look even better.  That should change next year.  

Might the Celtics be better with Bradley starting?  Sure.  But I don't think this nearly as dramatic of an issue as people are making it out to be.  I also think Bradley and Green could make an incredible 6th man duo off the bench, coming in midway through the 1st and bringing a huge boost of injury to run with Rondo the rest of the quarter.  

And after that, who started and who came off the bench is really inconsequential.  

  I kind of disagree for one reason.

 With Ray Allen starting we rarely get easy baskets.  When Bradley starts we do.

  With the advancing age of the three guys this offense was built around and their inability to carry us offensively night in and night out like they could a few years ago, we need those easy baskets, every one of them.  We need to get into the open court and/or into early offense.  We need to get to lose balls.  We do all of those things better as a starting unit with Bradley in place of Ray IMO.

But you're missing my point.  My point isn't that Ray's a better starter, it's simply that if offering Ray a starting spot gets him back in green, do it.  

The starting 5 really only plays together for the beginning of the game and often the end of the game.  In between there's all sorts of combinations going on that both Ray and Bradley were part of.  

Furthermore, even after Ray lost his starting spot last year, he often finished games instead of Bradley.  So if the starting 5 was so much better with Bradley, why did Doc go with Ray at the end of games?

Again, my point isn't that one is better than another, my point is that who starts and who comes off the bench is largely overrated.  What's important is that Ray comes back.  And if it takes offering him the starting spot to do it, so be it.  

  I think you are missing the point.

  If Ray only wants to come back if he is guaranteed a starting spot but the team is better with Bradley starting then BYE-BYE Ray Allen.  If Ray were 32 rather then almost 37 this wouldn't even be a discussion but he isn't.  Other then hitting spot up jumpers Ray doesn't bring a whole lot to the table anymore.  His defense has declined a whole lot.  He cannot create his own shot or shots for others and his handle is pretty bad making him a turnover waiting to happen if you run him off of his spot.  He has struggled to get open at times as well which ends up wasting valuable seconds off of the shot clock while Rondo waits to see if he can get open.

  The bottom line is what is best for the Celtic's is miles more important then what is best for Ray Allen

[Celtics18]

If Ray does come back, this team will be deeper than Nietzsche.  Everyone will have to accept his role, whatever that role may be.

No guarantees: No guarantee that Ray starts.  No guarantee that Paul starts.  No guarantee that KG plays power forward.  No guarantee that Rondo plays 38 minutes a night.  No guarantee that Avery gets 20.  No guarantee that JJ or Sully or Mayo get off the bench.

Let's do this.

[rayallen1934]

Man, it's like people didn't even watch the Celtics play last year.

The Celtics were a much better defensive and offensive team with Bradley in the starting five.  Not because KG got better post-all star break, Bradley was just flat out better than Ray last year.  And no, Ray didn't have bonespurs all year and even to start the year was a sieve on defense.  Instead of Rondo having to guard the best guard and run the entire offense, Bradley was able to take some pressure off Rondo.

On top of that, Bradley isn't completely dependent on getting 3 consecutive screens and a perfect pass from Rondo to get a decent look.  He can create his own shot and make offense even when the offense is being run through another player.

Bradley is just flat out better than Ray, healthy or not.  On top of the fact Bradley is a young budding player, there is absolutely zero valid argument to be made for Ray starting over him.

You're missing the point.

This isn't just about who should start: it's if it comes down to Ray staying and starting or leaving, Ray staying and starting is better.  

No, its not.

I agree. While guys like KG and PP are still bringing their A game and able to do so (relatively healthy) , ray allen can't anymore. He is still dangerous just being on the court bc you can't leave him alone, but he very close to being a 3 pt specialist right now. When was the last time you saw allen drive in for a layup, take a charge, grab a rebound, make a steal or make a FT(i mean he is one of the best at the line and its wasted).

Celtics want him back but at a reduced role than he is used to. Even if he gets to start, Bradley will or should play alot more.

We don't know why Allen and Rondo had a little beef last year, but its prob bc allen is not playing all out, yet he is on the court being a bystander .

You should not get favouritism bc you are considered a legend. That ruins the team culture and hard work/reward system for everyone else.

your blind just like most celtic fans

hes not what he used to be, but he can still rebound, drive and pass...you act like hes steve novak out there.

[rayallen1934]

Man, it's like people didn't even watch the Celtics play last year.

The Celtics were a much better defensive and offensive team with Bradley in the starting five.  Not because KG got better post-all star break, Bradley was just flat out better than Ray last year.  And no, Ray didn't have bonespurs all year and even to start the year was a sieve on defense.  Instead of Rondo having to guard the best guard and run the entire offense, Bradley was able to take some pressure off Rondo.

On top of that, Bradley isn't completely dependent on getting 3 consecutive screens and a perfect pass from Rondo to get a decent look.  He can create his own shot and make offense even when the offense is being run through another player.

Bradley is just flat out better than Ray, healthy or not.  On top of the fact Bradley is a young budding player, there is absolutely zero valid argument to be made for Ray starting over him.

You're missing the point.

This isn't just about who should start: it's if it comes down to Ray staying and starting or leaving, Ray staying and starting is better.  

No, its not.

I agree. While guys like KG and PP are still bringing their A game and able to do so (relatively healthy) , ray allen can't anymore. He is still dangerous just being on the court bc you can't leave him alone, but he very close to being a 3 pt specialist right now. When was the last time you saw allen drive in for a layup, take a charge, grab a rebound, make a steal or make a FT(i mean he is one of the best at the line and its wasted).

Celtics want him back but at a reduced role than he is used to. Even if he gets to start, Bradley will or should play alot more.

We don't know why Allen and Rondo had a little beef last year, but its prob bc allen is not playing all out, yet he is on the court being a bystander .

You should not get favouritism bc you are considered a legend. That ruins the team culture and hard work/reward system for everyone else.

Yes Pierce and his A game

shooting 34 percent in the finals, 26% from three    , YES HE BRANG HIS A GAME

he shot 42% vs ATL

he shot 40% vs PHILLY


yes Pierce the  A GAME

[Jon]

First and foremost, if this is a question of Ray staying and starting or Ray leaving, this discussion should end now.  We're talking about the first 5-6 minutes of the game.  After that, Doc can adjust his rotations however he sees fit.  

Second of all, I think the perceived change that Bradley brought to the starting unit was only partly his doing.

Don't get me wrong.  I like Bradley and I like him a lot.  I think he has star potential.  

However, at the time he was breaking into the starting unit, other things began to happen that had nothing to do with Bradley.  

First and foremost, KG started to turn it around and have his own personal renaissance.  Second, PP finally got his butt into shape after the lockout.  

On top of this, when Ray came back, he was Ray with bone spurs, making Bradley look even better.  That should change next year.  

Might the Celtics be better with Bradley starting?  Sure.  But I don't think this nearly as dramatic of an issue as people are making it out to be.  I also think Bradley and Green could make an incredible 6th man duo off the bench, coming in midway through the 1st and bringing a huge boost of injury to run with Rondo the rest of the quarter.  

And after that, who started and who came off the bench is really inconsequential.  

  I kind of disagree for one reason.

 With Ray Allen starting we rarely get easy baskets.  When Bradley starts we do.

  With the advancing age of the three guys this offense was built around and their inability to carry us offensively night in and night out like they could a few years ago, we need those easy baskets, every one of them.  We need to get into the open court and/or into early offense.  We need to get to lose balls.  We do all of those things better as a starting unit with Bradley in place of Ray IMO.

But you're missing my point.  My point isn't that Ray's a better starter, it's simply that if offering Ray a starting spot gets him back in green, do it.  

The starting 5 really only plays together for the beginning of the game and often the end of the game.  In between there's all sorts of combinations going on that both Ray and Bradley were part of.  

Furthermore, even after Ray lost his starting spot last year, he often finished games instead of Bradley.  So if the starting 5 was so much better with Bradley, why did Doc go with Ray at the end of games?

Again, my point isn't that one is better than another, my point is that who starts and who comes off the bench is largely overrated.  What's important is that Ray comes back.  And if it takes offering him the starting spot to do it, so be it.  

  I think you are missing the point.

  If Ray only wants to come back if he is guaranteed a starting spot but the team is better with Bradley starting then BYE-BYE Ray Allen.  If Ray were 32 rather then almost 37 this wouldn't even be a discussion but he isn't.  Other then hitting spot up jumpers Ray doesn't bring a whole lot to the table anymore.  His defense has declined a whole lot.  He cannot create his own shot or shots for others and his handle is pretty bad making him a turnover waiting to happen if you run him off of his spot.  He has struggled to get open at times as well which ends up wasting valuable seconds off of the shot clock while Rondo waits to see if he can get open.

  The bottom line is what is best for the Celtic's is miles more important then what is best for Ray Allen

What is best for the Celtics is Ray Allen on this team.

If it takes offering him the starting job, they should do it.

They can still play Bradley more minutes.


Again, I am not trying to argue that Ray Allen should start. I am simply saying that if this is a choice of Ray starting or Ray leaving, let him start.  Just because Ray starts doesn't mean Bradley can't play more minutes.

And if Ray is making no such demands, then I am open to whatever Doc thinks is best.

[scurvmeister]

If Ray does come back, this team will be deeper than Nietzsche.

Sorry I usually lurk but this made me lol. TP

[Senninsage]

Man, it's like people didn't even watch the Celtics play last year.

The Celtics were a much better defensive and offensive team with Bradley in the starting five.  Not because KG got better post-all star break, Bradley was just flat out better than Ray last year.  And no, Ray didn't have bonespurs all year and even to start the year was a sieve on defense.  Instead of Rondo having to guard the best guard and run the entire offense, Bradley was able to take some pressure off Rondo.

On top of that, Bradley isn't completely dependent on getting 3 consecutive screens and a perfect pass from Rondo to get a decent look.  He can create his own shot and make offense even when the offense is being run through another player.

Bradley is just flat out better than Ray, healthy or not.  On top of the fact Bradley is a young budding player, there is absolutely zero valid argument to be made for Ray starting over him.

You're missing the point.

This isn't just about who should start: it's if it comes down to Ray staying and starting or leaving, Ray staying and starting is better. 

No, its not.

Ray staying and starting is better than Ray leaving. Are you mad? Do you have any idea how deadly the Heat could become with Ray on there to help them?

[Lightskinsmurf]

Man, it's like people didn't even watch the Celtics play last year.

The Celtics were a much better defensive and offensive team with Bradley in the starting five.  Not because KG got better post-all star break, Bradley was just flat out better than Ray last year.  And no, Ray didn't have bonespurs all year and even to start the year was a sieve on defense.  Instead of Rondo having to guard the best guard and run the entire offense, Bradley was able to take some pressure off Rondo.

On top of that, Bradley isn't completely dependent on getting 3 consecutive screens and a perfect pass from Rondo to get a decent look.  He can create his own shot and make offense even when the offense is being run through another player.

Bradley is just flat out better than Ray, healthy or not.  On top of the fact Bradley is a young budding player, there is absolutely zero valid argument to be made for Ray starting over him.

You're missing the point.

This isn't just about who should start: it's if it comes down to Ray staying and starting or leaving, Ray staying and starting is better. 

No, its not.

Ray staying and starting is better than Ray leaving. Are you mad? Do you have any idea how deadly the Heat could become with Ray on there to help them?

Are you mad? I'm looking out for what's best for the team and not what's best for RAY ALLEN. Secondly, if allen doesn't accept his role off the bench here hes not gonna do it in miami for LESS MONEY. Use your head man. Hes coming back here or going to wherever he can start. Bringing a guy back just to keep him away from another team is nothing short of stupidity.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Ray shouldn't start...and probably wouldn't start anywhere......he is a great, and still great shooting specialist....but as for starting all year, playing long games all year, and defending 24 year olds...is just plain stupid. Ray is doing as we all do / will do....not face the age facts....on the Celtics, Bradley showed what we could have, as a 1-2 punch.....Brad is 22-ish, and all over the other team, in thier face, slashing and getting free, Ray has to realize it is "coming off the bench time" and it will work great...if he can deal with it in his ego, he will kill the 2nd unit of the other team, and the other team will have to ruin their rotation to cover him...THAT is the chess part of hoop..!!!

[Meadowlark_Scal]

After being a shotter, if his shot isn't workiong, what else does Ray add at this point...this isn't Ray-hate either..i love ray...but, i love robert parrish too....can't put him in.....we saw what he didn't do when his shot was flat, no dunks, no cutting layups, no STEALS, few blocks, low avg Defense, so no, he shouldn't start...but starting is sort of a dumb notion anyway....so you START a game...so what...you have to PLAY the game, all the time, every minute..not just when you get the ball..there is more to do out there...!!! Rebounds....we never expect these other things from Ray....we just wanted him to hit 3's....and people forget 20 misses, as long as he hit one in the end...well, if he hit, or made layups thru the game and could stop his man from scoring, we wouldn't need a magic 3 with 0.5 seconds left......

[LooseCannon]

There are some people who think that all Ray Allen did was shoot threes.  Those people were not paying attention.

[BballTim]

You're missing the point.

This isn't just about who should start: it's if it comes down to Ray staying and starting or leaving, Ray staying and starting is better. 

  If it comes down to that, you have to let him leave.

Yup. Player signs a contract to play for a team in a role that best helps them to win. The coach determines that role, not a player. Can't let the tail wag the dog.

If Ray wants to sign with the C's, he has to accept whatever role is assigned to him. Period. End of story.

If that isn't good for him, sorry to say it, but Ray needs to go.

This is just silly.  The guy is a first ballot Hall of Famer and arguably the greatest shooter in the history of the NBA.  It's not insane for him to want to start. 

Even if you don't agree with that, it's one thing to think Bradley should start.  It's another to think that we're better off without Ray Allen. 

  First of all, Bird was a better shooter. Beyond that, and you didn't address it before, but what if Ray's play continues to decline or Bradley really starts playing well? Who starts then? What happens to our chemistry when a number of players on the team think that Ray didn't earn his place in the lineup, but his agent negotiated it for him? It would be a disaster.

Bird was amazing, but Ray is better, unless you can prove me otherwise , since i barely saw bird play

  If you barely saw Bird play, how do you know he wasn't better? And if you barely saw him play, you only saw him post back injury when he was a shell of himself as a player.

Rays shot is a thing of beauty, birds wasn't that pretty, bird shot better from the field yet, but his three point shooting isn't even CLOSE to Ray's, Free throw shooting Ray is also better

considering Ray shoots a ton more 3's , he does pretty well in shooting the ball at 45%

  I saw Bird hit a decent amount of shots with three guys draped all over him. Ray would have airballed most of those shots. And Ray took a lot more threes just like everyone else does, because it's a big part of the game. Teams run tons of plays to get three point shots, that wasn't the case when Bird played. The league average for threes is about 25% higher during Ray's era than Bird's.