How's my Historical Team? (Awesome right!)

[StartOrien]

You guys still beating your wives?

Did anybody hear the willie mcginest version of that question on the sports hub last night?

nay

[Rondo2287]

You guys still beating your wives?

Did anybody hear the willie mcginest version of that question on the sports hub last night?

nay

Basically Back when Felger was covering the pats he had an exchange with Willie Mcginest that went like this,

"Willie there is a rumor out there that this going to be your last year with the team is that true,"

Willie: "No, where did you hear that?:

Felger: "Just a rumor that this going to be your last year"

Willie: "Theres a rumor that your gay, is that true"

Again, a [dang]ed if you do [dang]ed if you don't question, deny too strongly, and you look like you believe there is something wrong with being gay, and saying yes if you arent gay and thats not a good thing either.

[StartOrien]

I like it.

[StartOrien]

Question for you guys. I made two decisions that I think were questionable, and I can't figure out if I made the wrong decision:

1. Drafted the Matrix over Pau Gasol

I had two thoughts as far as ultimately not going w/ Gasol:

1. As stated, I thought the flexibility the Matrix provided me was important. Worst case scenario - and what essentially did happen - is that I wouldn't really need to use that flexibility, but I'd still have a very good defensive player at the 3, who still is a pretty good offensive player there.

Plus, I still think his skill set would be utilized well at the 3 in an offense with 4 great passers. Different roles, different players, and different overall skillset but I kinda look at it like a Bass situation. I think eventually, while teamwork and passing is great, you do need a guy who is just going to shoot. I think Matrix would be that guy, though obviously in more of a slashing role.

2. I didn't like Gasol's size next to C-Webb. Figured I could take a little bit of a hit offensively and take someone like Marc. Public h/t to KC, who pointed out to me that Vlade Divac was in fact eligible.  

2. Andre Iguodala over Tony Parker

On the surface, I think a lot of people will jump to say I made a yuge mistake there. Particularly, one draft-riggin commissioner. So I'll skip the obvious pro's of parker and defend Iguodala.

With the talent in the draft I thought it was important to get a strong wing defensive player. This, at the time opened the opportunity for me to move the Matrix to the 4 without taking too much of a hit defensively, and also provided me with the ability to have 2 really, really good defensive players on the wing. While Parker was easily the best point guard available (and probably player in general), I thought there were enough other point guards hat were close enough to him, but not many who were as defensively skilled as Iguodala.

It also gave me the ability to play Ginobli at the 1, something I'd still consider.

Anyways, thoughts?

[GreenFaith1819]

Hey Guys!

I'm still alive, but barely.

To those of us that have gone/are in college, I'm sure some of you can attest to the fact that:

PHYSICS is NO JOKE .

I'm getting through it, but it is - as KG calls it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JHV5pZQpoc

And speaking of my 2003-04 Regular Season MVP, 1St team Defensive Player, Averager of 24 pts, 14 rebs, 5 Assists, 2.2 blocks, 1.5 steals, etc, etc, etc....just browsing quickly through the thread last night I find it a bit odd that his team isn't getting much love from you all for Best Overall Team?

I haven't (IMO) seen any real "quantifiable" arguments for/against my team, as far as to the rankings.

I believe that Roy posted earlier as to who he liked, but even with that there was no real reason as to how/why he ranked them as such.

You want offense? We have Michael Redd (Prime), KG, and Yao. Chauncey can easily put up 20-25 pts if need be, but he adds chemistry (and Finals MVP credentials) to our team in that he DOESN"T have to score much.

Plus, he's an elite defender - as is KG and Eddie Jones for our starters. Even Michael Redd was a good defender while in MIL.

Off the bench? We have none other than TA - the same man that Kobe himself calls "His Best Defender". We have Joakim Noah, who will put up 11, 11, and nearly a block a game - off the bench. We also have scoring off the bench, too - Sam Cassell, Zach Randolph, Antonio Davis, Dennis Scott, Derek Mckey.

Again - I unfortunately haven't been around enough to fight for my team (and rank others, yet), but just give My Los Angeles Lakers SOME LOVE, please:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Sl-MHhEJxI&feature=related

As Ms. Roberta Flack says - Where is the Love? (and I'm not talking about KEVIN - that guy, while a great player - doesn't defend well (yet))

Don't underrate my team just because I got saddled with the Lakers (again) this year .

Give us our due.

I will field comments, etc - when I get the opportunity to come up again for air from being underwater with Physics. That probably won't be until tomorrow sometime, unfortunately.

[StartOrien]

I haven't (IMO) seen any real "quantifiable" arguments for/against my team, as far as to the rankings.

In this particular format I take a look at statistics, but won't make much decision based off of it. It's a historic draft, you're taking the best of the best, and their best season on top of it. They're all 20 point scorers, they're all all stars. So, personally, I think more about roles and overall fit.

[Moranis]

Review 3 from Team Presentations:

StartOrien's Magic, Or, 'Swagger? I Barely Know Her!'

C: Vlade Divac
PF: Chris Webber
SF: Shawn Marion
SG: Manu Ginobli
PG: Baron Davis

Andre Iguodala, Lamar Odom, Theo Ratliff
Stephon Marbury, Toni Kukoc,
Kenyon Martin, Jason Richardson
Kirk Hinrich

Pro's: This is a team that took full advantage of the format here, selecting guys whose biggest knocks are injury and year-to-year consistency, but who still had one great year to build on. Hyper-athletic across the board excepting the center position, and even on the bench a ton of athleticism and versatility.

Con's: With a bunch of 'fall in line' type of guys around him, I'd buy that a team led by Divac/Webber/Manu could go far. But Shawn Marion was jealous of Amare, Baron Davis has always been volatile and tough to keep engaged, and that's not even inching close to the powder kegs on the bench in Starburns, Odom, and Kirk Hinrich. Real chemistry/leadership concerns. Also, outside shooting is concern, and Shawn Marion won't be the devastating option he was as a 'quick' 4 if he's just a regular 3 who has a funny jump shot.

Current Rankings (Rolling as I Review More Teams)

Overall
1. Magic
2. Mavs
3. Nuggets

Offensive
1. Magic
2. Mavs
3. Nuggets

Defensive
1. Nuggets
2. Mavs
3. Magic

I really don't get how you think that team is going to beat the Mavs or be a more effective offense.  Marion is arguably the only position that team exceeds the Mavs and I'd take my bench over the Magic any day of the week.  

[StartOrien]

I really don't get how you think that team is going to beat the Mavs or be a more effective offense.  Marion is arguably the only position that team exceeds the Mavs and I'd take my bench over the Magic any day of the week.  

At least offensively, I don't think any other team is all that close to me outside the Hawks.

I think while your team is really skilled, Moranis, I have some overall questions about overall fit. Particularly 1-3. They're all great players, but I don't see them getting the best out of each other.

EDIT: Anxiously awaits the ensuing dozen "My (direct allusion to two best players) disagree" posts.

[Moranis]

Just some things I'd like to point out about Rose as a PG.  His AST% 38.7 from his MVP season.  AST% measures the estimated percentage of teammate field goals that the player assisted on while he was on the floor.  

I want to point some other AST% from PG's that are being given a lot of love in this, while Rose gets killed.

Chauncey Billups 03/04 - 29.3%
Tony Parker 06/07 - 31.7%
Penny Hardaway 95/96 - 32.2%
Mark Price 88/89 - 33.8%
Terry Porter 90/91 - 34.0%
Tim Hardaway 90/91 - 36.8%
Allen Iverson 04/05 - 37.6%
Derrick Rose 10/11 - 38.7%
Kevin Johnson 88/89 - 40.4%
Deron Williams 07/08 - 43.6%
Jason Kidd 98/99 - 44.0%

Sure Rose is no where near the quality of Steve Nash or Chris Paul (who were both over 50% in the years chosen and why I didn't list them), but there seems to be the notion that Derrick Rose is a poor passer and that just isn't true.  In fact, he is actually in the top half of this league in AST%.  He needs to be given the credit he is owed.  

I wasn't sure what year of Baron Davis was selected, so I didn't include him, but his career best for a season in which he played at least 70 games was 39.6% for the 09/10 Clippers.  Rose is higher in every other season in which Davis played at least 70 games.  I am also missing 2 other PG's, whose teams weren't in the presentation section.

I guess my point is, it is absolutely ridiculous to think that Rose isn't going to be able to get the ball where it needs to go.  He is already in the top half of the league in AST% and that is with him playing on a Chicago team that wasn't exactly stacked offensively.  I mean his best offensive player that year was a lesser version of Carlos Boozer that played with Williams in Utah.  

EDIT: Malone is a better Boozer.  Pierce is a better Deng.  Bynum actually plays offense unlike Noah.  And Johnson is perhaps the best three point shooter in this game.  Rose will do just fine with this team and he shouldn't be discredited because he also scores.  His passing measures up with most of the league. 

[Who]

Question for you guys. I made two decisions that I think were questionable, and I can't figure out if I made the wrong decision:

1. Drafted the Matrix over Pau Gasol

I had two thoughts as far as ultimately not going w/ Gasol:

1. As stated, I thought the flexibility the Matrix provided me was important. Worst case scenario - and what essentially did happen - is that I wouldn't really need to use that flexibility, but I'd still have a very good defensive player at the 3, who still is a pretty good offensive player there.

Plus, I still think his skill set would be utilized well at the 3 in an offense with 4 great passers. Different roles, different players, and different overall skillset but I kinda look at it like a Bass situation. I think eventually, while teamwork and passing is great, you do need a guy who is just going to shoot. I think Matrix would be that guy, though obviously in more of a slashing role.

2. I didn't like Gasol's size next to C-Webb. Figured I could take a little bit of a hit offensively and take someone like Marc. Public h/t to KC, who pointed out to me that Vlade Divac was in fact eligible.  

2. Andre Iguodala over Tony Parker

On the surface, I think a lot of people will jump to say I made a yuge mistake there. Particularly, one draft-riggin commissioner. So I'll skip the obvious pro's of parker and defend Iguodala.

With the talent in the draft I thought it was important to get a strong wing defensive player. This, at the time opened the opportunity for me to move the Matrix to the 4 without taking too much of a hit defensively, and also provided me with the ability to have 2 really, really good defensive players on the wing. While Parker was easily the best point guard available (and probably player in general), I thought there were enough other point guards hat were close enough to him, but not many who were as defensively skilled as Iguodala.

It also gave me the ability to play Ginobli at the 1, something I'd still consider.

Anyways, thoughts?

I was very surprised to see Shawn Marion go in the second round. Early second round pick too. I thought that was way too early for him. I am sure he would have been available in the third round and had him listed as a fourth/fifth round pick myself.

I thought that decision limited your team early on from a talent standpoint.

I thought Webber went a little early too. I had him as a mid to late second rounder. Especially with Alonzo Mourning, Jason Kidd and Grant Hill available. There was loads for talent there. I just thought there were better players there than Webber.

I didn't really understand the Iguodala pick with Marion there. You already had a fantastic defender with brilliant range defensively who can defend 1 through 4. Both with significant flaws offensively. I thought you needed to find more offense with that pick.

However, I wouldn't have liked Pau Gasol or Tony Parker either so there's that ... I liked the Baron Davis pickup a lot, I have him rated higher than Parker. So I thought you got a significantly better player there (PG) than your second option of T.Parker. 

Vlade Divac was another one that I thought went too early. I had him as a 6th-8th round pick. Not a fourth. Another player who I think limits you from a top tier talent standpoint. I thought Jermaine O'Neal would have been a much stronger selection, talent wise.

I loved the Ginobili pickup. I thought he was great value as a late third rounder. I also really liked Lamar Odom in the 7th round. I thought he was a really good talent (at that stage of the draft) and a very good complement to Webber/Divac.

[StartOrien]

I have no doubts that Rose is a good passer, but I have some questions about him running a coherent offense alongside a team of great players. Particularly those who work well with the ball in their hands.

I could see Rose and Malone working well together, and I think Bynum compliments them as well. But I don't see Pierce and Johnson excelling as spot-up shooters, which is the role I think this offense would dictate.

[StartOrien]

I'll be honest, Who. The reason I decided to join fill-in for SyFy9 was that I started to think about how much fun it would be to build a team around Chris Webber. So I agree, it was a little early for him, I didn't want to take the chance on missing out on him because for me, that was the point of the excercise.

I'd have to review who was selected after Iguodala, you make a great point about the offense.

EDIT: one further defense though; my guess is that the difference between the offensive fire power of who'd ever be available at that point and Jason Richardson isn't monumental.

[GreenFaith1819]

One more passing thought before I have to go:

I saw Moranis' concerns with DRose. While I see where you are getting at, my REAL concern with Derrick Rose (as was CP3) in THIS format, was him NOT being in HIS PRIME, yet.

Just for MY team - when I chose Chauncey, no one can deny that he pretty much put it all together that year (03-04). He then plateaued for a few years after that, but 03-04 was HIS year.

To me, that's my concern with DRose - while a great player, you are essentially asking him to lead a Historical Team against great players, defenders, etc - and he probably won't reach his prime for 1-2 more years.

I mean - is he (and Rondo AND CP3) really PRIME players, yet?

Are they TRULY seasoned? Have they lead their respective teams DEEP into the playoffs, yet?

EDIT: Rondo has, BUT - he wasn't THE MAN back in 07-08, either.

[wdleehi]

One more passing thought before I have to go:

I saw Moranis' concerns with DRose. While I see where you are getting at, my REAL concern with Derrick Rose (as was CP3) in THIS format, was him NOT being in HIS PRIME, yet.

Just for MY team - when I chose Chauncey, no one can deny that he pretty much put it all together that year (03-04). He then plateaued for a few years after that, but 03-04 was HIS year.

To me, that's my concern with DRose - while a great player, you are essentially asking him to lead a Historical Team against great players, defenders, etc - and he probably won't reach his prime for 1-2 more years.

I mean - is he (and Rondo AND CP3) really PRIME players, yet?

Are they TRULY seasoned? Have they lead their respective teams DEEP into the playoffs, yet?

EDIT: Rondo has, BUT - he wasn't THE MAN back in 07-08, either.

Yes, they are ready.  He won the MVP for a reason.  Whether or not you think they gave it to the right player, he was good enough to be in the discussion. 


And I don't hold whether one player on a team has lead a team deep or not.  These teams are loaded.  There are going to be multiple players on every team that has lead or been apart of teams that went deep. 

[StartOrien]

EDIT: one further defense though; my guess is that the difference between the offensive fire power of who'd ever be available at that point and Jason Richardson isn't monumental.

Looking back, I'm kinda right about J-Rich w/ the exception of Sprewell. That was a mistake, and I remember realizing it about thirty seconds after I made the pick. 

The only other guy I would've considered would be Rip Hamilton, but I don't think he'd have enough size to play alongside Manu.