How's my Historical Team? (Awesome right!)

[indeedproceed]

AND CASSELL WAS 36 years old! 36 when he did that!

[GreenFaith1819]

AND CASSELL WAS 36 years old! 36 when he did that!

And you get a TP for mentioning my great PG that is backing up my "other" great PG.

[GreenFaith1819]

If I were a clippers fan and my wife had a child in 05-06 I would name him/her elton. 


Enough said

Kevin sounds better.

[StartOrien]

My point, that I'm making here, is that when Brand (at his full health) operated with a marginally above average P&R point guard, he hit career highs and made the league take notice. He only had Cassell for one full season. That's one entire season of his career spent with an above average P&R point guard and leader besides himself.

And he put a perennial dog on his back and made himself an MVP candidate.

How is that helping the point that Steve Nash doesn't take him even further?

Our memories of Cassell seem to be different, but I don't recall him being much of a pick and roll point guard. Good shooter, great in the post, but I don't remember pick and roll being a big part of his offense.

I'll concede that my memory here might be wrong, but I watched that Clippers playoff run pretty intently.

[indeedproceed]

My point, that I'm making here, is that when Brand (at his full health) operated with a marginally above average P&R point guard, he hit career highs and made the league take notice. He only had Cassell for one full season. That's one entire season of his career spent with an above average P&R point guard and leader besides himself.

And he put a perennial dog on his back and made himself an MVP candidate.

How is that helping the point that Steve Nash doesn't take him even further?

Our memories of Cassell seem to be different, but I don't recall him being much of a pick and roll point guard. Good shooter, great in the post, but I don't remember pick and roll being a big part of his offense.

I'll concede that my memory here might be wrong, but I watched that Clippers playoff run pretty intently.

I think Cassell was good at all those things. But he was also a gifted P&R point, just very talented with the ball.

[Rondo2287]

My point, that I'm making here, is that when Brand (at his full health) operated with a marginally above average P&R point guard, he hit career highs and made the league take notice. He only had Cassell for one full season. That's one entire season of his career spent with an above average P&R point guard and leader besides himself.

And he put a perennial dog on his back and made himself an MVP candidate.

How is that helping the point that Steve Nash doesn't take him even further?

Our memories of Cassell seem to be different, but I don't recall him being much of a pick and roll point guard. Good shooter, great in the post, but I don't remember pick and roll being a big part of his offense.

I'll concede that my memory here might be wrong, but I watched that Clippers playoff run pretty intently.

what I remember about that clipper run was the two man game played by Cassell and Brand in the 4th quarter of games, they cleared out and it was either brand facing up and scoring either via jumpshot or drive, or Cassel taking a jumpshot.  Cassel was never much of a 3 pt shooter but I imagine this would work better with Nash because you couldnt cheat as far off of him and giving Brand better space to work.

[Who]

Cassell was a very good PnR point guard. It was the strength of his pick and roll game that got Garnett to put up the best scoring season of his career. Cassell did the same for Brand.

As for Finley, he made his bones in the league as a defensive stopper as a rookie on those Phoenix Suns teams. It's how he got on the court. Not because of his offense but his defense. He got the toughest assignment every night and he did an admirable job. Finley was clearly a good defensive player even as a rookie in NBA and was well able to supply above average defense at the stage in his career selected by IP.

[Fafnir]

With AI we needed a less selfish Amar'e, yet he was still scoring over 25 PPG. The '10-'11 Amar'e was a much more mature and focused player, a more active and aggressive ball-handler, and far far from broken down.

I also see no "flow" problems because of minutes with a team as talented as this ... on the contrary, with everyone buying into the strategy, players are fresher and less prone to injury.

You went with an Amar'e who was no longer an elite athlete, a more complete basketball player but one who could only score at an above average rate when at C when surrounded by shooters. No longer a mismatch nightmare for anyone.

03-04 Amar'e destroyed Tim Duncan one on one in Tim Duncan's prime in the playoffs. Amazing explosion and aggressiveness.

06-07 Would also have been a better choice, a compromise as AMar'e had more experience and probably his best statistical year. Amar'e just isn't athletic enough in 10-11 to do nearly as much as the younger years version could have against such talented opposition in this league. A low level all-star talent instead of an all-nba scoring threat.

[GreenFaith1819]

A little free time here, so I'll ask some questions:

For those who own CP3, Nash, Rose - how do you think your PGs would fare vs Chauncey Prime? Chauncey was a tough, smart, player who may not have been the best PG stats-wise, but could still run an offense, defend at an elite level, score from the post, shoot well from deep, and stay in front of the best PGs out there in his prime?

How do you think they'd fare (those three being a bit smaller than Chauncey), when he'd elect to take them down to the post?

Chauncey was known to punish opposing PGs down low.

And IF they managed to play well vs Chauncey, how would they fare vs TA if he was on the floor during extended minutes?

[indeedproceed]

My point, that I'm making here, is that when Brand (at his full health) operated with a marginally above average P&R point guard, he hit career highs and made the league take notice. He only had Cassell for one full season. That's one entire season of his career spent with an above average P&R point guard and leader besides himself.

And he put a perennial dog on his back and made himself an MVP candidate.

How is that helping the point that Steve Nash doesn't take him even further?

Our memories of Cassell seem to be different, but I don't recall him being much of a pick and roll point guard. Good shooter, great in the post, but I don't remember pick and roll being a big part of his offense.

I'll concede that my memory here might be wrong, but I watched that Clippers playoff run pretty intently.

what I remember about that clipper run was the two man game played by Cassell and Brand in the 4th quarter of games, they cleared out and it was either brand facing up and scoring either via jumpshot or drive, or Cassel taking a jumpshot.  Cassel was never much of a 3 pt shooter but I imagine this would work better with Nash because you couldnt cheat as far off of him and giving Brand better space to work.

That's the part I keep on forgetting to mention. Elton Brand has always been a gifted post player in the offense (and still is), and always had a soft 10-15 foot jumper, but earlier in his career he could finish with the best of them around the basket. Just too big, too strong and too quick to stop when he had a step.

I reiterate, I still believe the Spurs to be the best offensive team. I don't think even I could get my head around Steve Nash being the pilot of the best overall team, because of the juxtaposition between pace, and defense, and all the other preconceived notions we have about the guy, but I have a hard time seeing people knock the offense.

Steve Nash makes players around him better by getting the ball to them consistently in places that make it easy to play to their strengths to get high% shots.

I've got 4 capable scorers (and lots of bench options), who all displayed the ability to work around Nash's skillsets to compliment him.

I've got a center who is athletic enough to run with Nash.

Just not seeing how the Spurs are consistently missing out on even a lot of people's top 3, let alone top spot offensively.

[GreenFaith1819]

Yes, they are ready.  He won the MVP for a reason.  Whether or not you think they gave it to the right player, he was good enough to be in the discussion. 


And I don't hold whether one player on a team has lead a team deep or not.  These teams are loaded.  There are going to be multiple players on every team that has lead or been apart of teams that went deep.

Wdleehi - I truly believe that Derrick Rose earned that MVP award that season - no question.

My point is - Championship experience, however large or small, figures into this game, I believe. It always has, to my memory. With that being said, we can't just arbitrarily say that a team in this format that lacks championship experience will get his team there - no matter how they are constructed.

The interesting this with this draft is that people like Dirk, who won a banner last year, was easily a better player in his early years than his championship year - so with that being said - I'm guessign that whoever "owns" Dirk, went with his Prime years vice his championship years.

[indeedproceed]

Review 5 From Team Presentations:

Rondo2287's New York Knicks, Or, "Is Tim Duncan Gonna Have To Choke A (Witch)?"

PG: Tony Parker
SG: Brandon Roy
SF: Ron Artest
PF: Ben Wallace
C: Tim Duncan

Bench:
Detlef Schrempf
Rip Hamilton
Stephen Curry
Emeka Okafor
Carlos Boozer
Marcin Gortat
Shaun Livingston

Pro's: Tim Duncan was the only legitimate choice I saw that could rival Shaq's 2001 selection. He's a quite but effective leader, he can score from just about anywhere, he doesn't rattle in crunch time, he's an elite defender, and a willing passer if need be. If I had daughters, he could have them. Brandon Roy's 2009 performance is in my own quite little mental file of favorite and underappreciated years. He's a firey leader, also doesn't shake under pressure, and I think he can create his own offense against just about anyone in this league. Tony Parker was a heck of a steal, and honestly I have no idea how he made it so far. He's not an elite defender but good enough to make do, but he's also a crunch time killer, too quick off the dribble to stop, and a capable leader. I love Schrempf off the bench, love Curry (although I wonder, did he ever actually finish a season?). Ben Wallace is a pretty prototypical 'pretend center' to stick next to Duncan.

Cons: I get the reasoning behind starting Ben Wallace. Only so many shots to go around, elite defense, rebounding, yadda yadda. But, even a guy like Antonio Davis, or Dale Davis, or Oakley would've been better options because they at least brought some defense for elite level defense. Whenever playing against the Knicks you'll be able to sag off of Wallace (which is a godsend because the other 4 options are darn pretty good. Even Artest.), which means effectively you'll be playing 5 on 4. Boozer, meh. That's what I got on him, meh. Watching him play alongside Rose in Chicago has really made me re-evaluate what I thought he was and what I thought he wasn't. I wish you had a legitimate pass-first point guard to give you another look behind Tony Parker. I worry a bit about ball movement because of Roy's ball-dominant ways, and Artest, while not a ball-hog, is a bit erratic. I just don't trust him to help move the ball if his touches go way down from where they were in 2004 (which they will).

Current Rankings (Rolling as I Review More Teams)

Overall
1. Knicks
2. Magic
3. Hawks

Offensive
1. Hawks
2. Magic
3. Mavs

Defensive
1. Knicks
2. Nuggets
3. Mavs

[StartOrien]

Hogwash!

[indeedproceed]

Okay, I'm gonna step away from the computer for roughly half an hour in about 10 minutes. Here is what I'm thinking rihgt now for rankings (from me)

Overall:
1. Philadelphia
2. Knicks
3. Hawks

Offense:
1. Spurs
2. Celtics
3. Hawks

Defense:
1. Knicks
2. Grizzlies
3. Sixers

That's a tentative ranking, and if you're wondering where your team fits if its not ranked, assume its 4th and tell me why I should rank it higher. I'll tally up the votes and submit mine when I get back (still waiting on a few GM's and holding out hope they'll make it).

[Rondo2287]

Thanks for the time IP I appreciate it.

On Curry, I do think his passing is a little underrated, but I thought his 3 point shooting was more important for my team to get a little more spacing with the second unit.  Especially working with Rip, Rip has been one of the best 2 point jump shooters I have ever seen in my lifetime, but he has never been a standout 3 pt shooter.

I know some people arent as big fans as Ben Wallace as I am in this format but the dude has some elite skills at his position in the years that I selected.  

Finally thank you for giving Schrempf some respect, dude knows how to come off the bench and was a monster doing so.