EDIT: I gotta count the votes (almost done with that), figure out how I'm voting, and defend my team of patriots and heros against you heathens! It takes a minute! Although again TP to both SO and Who for really breaking down what they didn't like about my team in a way I could argue with, rather than just deciding they didn't like it much and not talking about it.I really don't see how anyone can say the Spurs offense isn't the best offense in the draft, and nobody has really explained it to me beyond 'fit' without a real detailed explanation as to why that fit is bad. I have also gotten 'gut feelings' and stuff like that too. It seems we've both been hurt Moranis. Let that unite us. As brothers.
I'll elaborate with some generalizations.
I'm but a simple man...
When I'm looking at these teams, I really don't want to be convinced that a few pieces would work together. Good teams, teams I like (particularly on offense) just make sense to me. I can't play a piano, I can't hit a ball out of Fenway Park, but when I look at an offense I just get it, ya know?
Which is why I liked your Pippen-Nash start so much. You immediately have an identity (fun n gun), and you've got an incredible wing defender to show you you're not going to just ignore defense. I've never bought into the Nash defensive argument, because, frankly in this format if you want to run iso's with your PG feel free to do so.
But then you pair them with a front court of O'Neal and Brand. Who in themselves are good picks, but they're two players who have never really played with an elite point guard and have never really shown an ability to excel in an offense that prefers to run. Nor have they showed to be particularly great in a pick and roll setting. Were they capable of doing so? Maybe, but we never saw it. And if you have almost 20 year of talent to comb through, why pick a player who MIGHT fit?
And then you get Finley - and I'm pretty sure you'e aware of this - but just because you keep saying he's a good defensive player, doesn't make him a good defensive player. He became more committed on the Spurs, after he was amnestied by the Mavs, but even then I don't think he showed anything to prove he's not a liability. Which again, isn't as much of an issue if your point guard isn't Steve Nash.
For better or for worse, when you take Steve Nash you have to draft around him. I don't think you did.
I appreciate your analysis, StartOrien, no matter how misinformed.
And while I cannot go back to the synergy sports stats for Elton Brand, Sam Cassell managed to get 17 points and 7 assists the year I picked Brand (the year that they made all the noise). Sam Cassell is a pretty decent P&R point guard, not an elite one, but a good one.
And even this season (11-12), as the P&R Man, Brand was still the 51st best player in the entire league at doing it during the regular season. That's 6 years later, with about half the athleticism, and without a P&R point as good as Cassell, let alone Nash.
I think just how special Brand was that year (which honestly was one of my favorite storylines of the 00's) is just underestimated here.
As far as pacing, the year in question for Brand, the Clippers had the 10th highest pace offense in the league, and while you're right on both counts about O'Neal, I don't think his athleticism or his offensive skill set are really in doubt here, and besides the fact, he was a 5th option offensively.
Michael Finley being a plus defensive player, either you buy or you don't. Again, I can't go back to the synergy statistic, but I can go on what I read and how I remember him as a player. The teams he played for early in his career (the Don Nelson Mavs) pretty much tainted everyone's defensive resume associated with it, because it was so porous. Aside from a bad supporting cast behind him, he had a bad defensive coach calling the shots.
But he's always been proud of his defense, and when he got a chance later on in his career to really show it on those later Spurs teams he showed it.
I really don't see how anyone can say the Spurs offense isn't the best offense in the draft, and nobody has really explained it to me beyond 'fit' without a real detailed explanation as to why that fit is bad. I have also gotten 'gut feelings' and stuff like that too. It seems we've both been hurt Moranis. Let that unite us. As brothers.
Offensively speaking (offense only), I have Nash ranked as the #1 PG in the draft. However, Nash is the only player in your starting lineup I have ranked as a high level offensive threat (relative to their fellow starters at their respective position). I have Pippen as above average. Brand average. Finley and Jermaine, both well below average.
On your bench, I haven't got Rice listed because it was a late trade (and I thought you were going to move him on elsewhere in a subsequent deal) but he'd probably be #1 amongst backup SFs (Granger or Rice?). I have Battier/Person + D.Armstrong both as below average. I have Josh Smith as below average (shot selection and turnovers drag him down). I have Zydrunas Ilgauskas listed as your backup center and have him as one of the best backup centers. So two high level offensive threats and three well below average players.
You have two very talented third stingers in Memo and Ilyasova. They'd both be above average at PF in place of Josh Smith (although I think that's a net-loss overall) and Memo would rank about the same spot as Ilgauskas at center (again, a net loss).
So, I loved Nash but I wasn't really convinced there was enough help offensively to rank as one of the best offensive teams.
Who, appreciate the thoughts as well, I disagree with some of them, but most noteably, I strongly disagree with Brand as 'average'. I know this is in the context of the format, so even 'average' is likely All-Star level, but look at the box scores from that season:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brandel01/gamelog/2006/During the regular season H2H against KG, they averaged:
Brand: 21.5 pts, 10.75 rebs, 57% shooting
Garnett: 21.3 pts, 13 rebounds, 58.5% shooting
Brand against Detroit (and DPOY that year Ben Wallace):
33 points, 10 rebounds, 56.5% shooting
Of the elite defenders I checked (I got stuff to do today too, alright?!), the only guy who really checked Brand was Duncan, and against him in 3 games Brand went for 24.6 points, 10.5 rebounds, on 43% shooting.
During the playoffs that season before falling in 7 game to Phoenix in the Semis Brand averaged 25.4 points, 10.3 rebounds, 4 assists, on 55% shooting.
I don't think Brand is average even in these settings, and as a power forward I have him as an offensive force only behind Dirk, Malone, and Webber. I think the numbers and the stories from that season back that up.
Topic: How's my Historical Team? (Awesome right!) (Read 161075 times)