Tim Duncan Hates KG?

[angryguy77]

Duncan also had the advantage of going to a team with a good coach and system in place. Spurs knew who to get around Duncan. Wolves...we know they didn't and still don't have any clue about such things.

Yeah, I don't think comparing both teams in a vacuum is being fair to KG. I think most teams would want to model themselves after SA rather than Minn

[OsirusCeltics]

I wouldn't really go by those stats as evidence
Parker and Ginobili can average 5 points a game, but guess what, they are Parker and Ginobli
When they are on the floor, based on their pedigree, they demand attention.

That's liking saying that if Avery Bradley eventually turns into a star, that he was an impact player on our 2010-11 team.

You can't judge 2003 Ginobili based upon what he later became.  2003 Ginobili was a rookie who averaged 7.6 points, 2.3 rebounds, and 2.0 assists.  He simply wasn't an impact player.  He shot 34.7% in the Finals that year.  He wasn't exactly the difference maker.

Like I said in an earlier post, at any point of Ginobili or Parker's careers (rookie or veteran), they are better than Troy Hudson or Nesterovic

Also people forget David Robinson was on that. It was his last year, but he's still David Robinson
Plus they had Kerr, Steve Smith, and Steven Jackson on that 2003 championship team

I must have missed it.  Hudson was the best player KG had on his team until he got to Boston?

I said excluding that 2004 season. But even Sprewell and Cassell weren't exactly the awesome players themselves compared to Duncan's. So you're comparing 1 season were KG had reasonable players to a whole career of Duncan having great players around him? Thats comical

Is that the only year Wally was on the team?


The same year Billups was on the team? 


The same year Brandon was on the team?

The same year Tom Gugliotta was on the team?

Ehh Gugliotta was a good player, one time all star
He had Billups for what 2 yrs? Marbury for like 2 yrs?
But you're kinda reaching with those players, like they would help KG win a title

[wdleehi]

I wouldn't really go by those stats as evidence
Parker and Ginobili can average 5 points a game, but guess what, they are Parker and Ginobli
When they are on the floor, based on their pedigree, they demand attention.

That's liking saying that if Avery Bradley eventually turns into a star, that he was an impact player on our 2010-11 team.

You can't judge 2003 Ginobili based upon what he later became.  2003 Ginobili was a rookie who averaged 7.6 points, 2.3 rebounds, and 2.0 assists.  He simply wasn't an impact player.  He shot 34.7% in the Finals that year.  He wasn't exactly the difference maker.

Like I said in an earlier post, at any point of Ginobili or Parker's careers (rookie or veteran), they are better than Troy Hudson or Nesterovic

Also people forget David Robinson was on that. It was his last year, but he's still David Robinson
Plus they had Kerr, Steve Smith, and Steven Jackson on that 2003 championship team

I must have missed it.  Hudson was the best player KG had on his team until he got to Boston?

I said excluding that 2004 season. But even Sprewell and Cassell weren't exactly the awesome players themselves compared to Duncan's. So you're comparing 1 season were KG had reasonable players to a whole career of Duncan having great players around him? Thats comical

Is that the only year Wally was on the team?


The same year Billups was on the team? 


The same year Brandon was on the team?

The same year Tom Gugliotta was on the team?

Ehh Gugliotta was a good player, one time all star
He had Billups for what 2 yrs? Marbury for like 2 yrs?
But you're kinda reaching with those players, like they would help KG win a title

Not reaching.  Evidence that Hudson was not the best player KG had outside of one year. 

[OsirusCeltics]

I wouldn't really go by those stats as evidence
Parker and Ginobili can average 5 points a game, but guess what, they are Parker and Ginobli
When they are on the floor, based on their pedigree, they demand attention.

That's liking saying that if Avery Bradley eventually turns into a star, that he was an impact player on our 2010-11 team.

You can't judge 2003 Ginobili based upon what he later became.  2003 Ginobili was a rookie who averaged 7.6 points, 2.3 rebounds, and 2.0 assists.  He simply wasn't an impact player.  He shot 34.7% in the Finals that year.  He wasn't exactly the difference maker.

Like I said in an earlier post, at any point of Ginobili or Parker's careers (rookie or veteran), they are better than Troy Hudson or Nesterovic

Also people forget David Robinson was on that. It was his last year, but he's still David Robinson
Plus they had Kerr, Steve Smith, and Steven Jackson on that 2003 championship team

I must have missed it.  Hudson was the best player KG had on his team until he got to Boston?

I said excluding that 2004 season. But even Sprewell and Cassell weren't exactly the awesome players themselves compared to Duncan's. So you're comparing 1 season were KG had reasonable players to a whole career of Duncan having great players around him? Thats comical

Is that the only year Wally was on the team?


The same year Billups was on the team? 


The same year Brandon was on the team?

The same year Tom Gugliotta was on the team?

Ehh Gugliotta was a good player, one time all star
He had Billups for what 2 yrs? Marbury for like 2 yrs?
But you're kinda reaching with those players, like they would help KG win a title

Not reaching.  Evidence that Hudson was not the best player KG had outside of one year. 

True, you're right. But I hope we can all agree that Duncan's teammates have been FAR better than KG, and shouldn't be the reason Duncan is thought of as the better player

[indeedproceed]

True, you're right. But I hope we can all agree that Duncan's teammates have been FAR better than KG, and shouldn't be the reason Duncan is thought of as the better player

I don't think that's why people think of Duncan as a better player.

[celtsfan84]

I don't know if the gap was far enough for their relative team performance.  Duncan's teams had better talent, yes, but they didn't exactly squeak by Garnett's Wolves teams.  One franchise won 4 rings while the other took almost a decade to get out of the first round.  Heck, Pierce made it out of the first round with worse teams.

[BballTim]

Via Chris Ballard (in a good piece on Duncan):

In fact, Duncan hates Kevin Garnett. Hates him the way liberals hate Sean Hannity. This information comes from very reliable sources, who talk about how KG has made a career of trying to punk Duncan, baiting him and slapping him and whispering really weird smack into his ear. They talk about how funny this is, because the worst thing you can do as an opponent is p--- off Duncan. Then, as Malik Rose says, "he f------ destroys you." Duncan's lifetime numbers versus Garnett's teams, by the way: 19.4 points per game, 11.6 boards and a 44--17 record, including the postseason.

Duncan is diplomatic about the topic. Asked if perhaps all those years battling Garnett have softened his feelings for the man, led to a Magic-Larry type of kinship, Duncan leans back on the couch in his hotel room and grins. There is a pause. A longer pause. Finally he says, "Define kinship."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1198491/3/index.htm

  Funny, it seems that I've read at least a hundred posts about how KG only picks on younger players and not the vet stars.

Duncan was in his second year (i think) when the slap happened.  Not exactly a veteran.

 "This information comes from very reliable sources, who talk about how KG has made a career of trying to punk Duncan, baiting him and slapping him and whispering really weird smack into his ear" sounds like more than one thing that happened in 1999.

[StartOrien]

True, you're right. But I hope we can all agree that Duncan's teammates have been FAR better than KG, and shouldn't be the reason Duncan is thought of as the better player

I don't think that's why people think of Duncan as a better player.

Whether it be consciously or subconsciously, I think you could make the argument that Duncan's often considered the better player because of the success he's had which can certainly be attributed to a significantly better supporting cast.

Maybe I'm just wearing my Green-tinted glasses and am completely blinded by the joy that this stretch of games has provided, but I've started to reconsider the KG-Duncan debate. At the end of the day the only thing I've been able to decide is this - I don't think it should be as open & shut case as it's often made to be.

[indeedproceed]

True, you're right. But I hope we can all agree that Duncan's teammates have been FAR better than KG, and shouldn't be the reason Duncan is thought of as the better player

I don't think that's why people think of Duncan as a better player.

Whether it be consciously or subconsciously, I think you could make the argument that Duncan's often considered the better player because of the success he's had which can certainly be attributed to a significantly better supporting cast.

Maybe I'm just wearing my Green-tinted glasses, but I've started to reconsider the KG-Duncan debate. At the end of the day the only thing I've been able to decide is this - I don't think it should be as open & shut case as it's often made.

Yeah, I see what you're saying I guess. My first thought is, "Because he won 4 championships." and how much of that was because Duncan was just 'better' and how much its because his teams were better is at the crux of the debate.

[CelticG1]

For the people that automatically pick Duncan over KG how much will the pendulum swing if the Celts play the Spurs in the finals and win?

I think as long as KG plays a fairly prominent role it should swing to at least even. What do you think?

Would he need to get MVP or would that completely swing it? Would he have to shut down Duncan and still average 18-20? Would it really not do too much for you?

Its a long way away and maybe wont happen but god that'd be fun. And think of the type of motivation KG would have with the constant chatter about Duncan being better

[StartOrien]

True, you're right. But I hope we can all agree that Duncan's teammates have been FAR better than KG, and shouldn't be the reason Duncan is thought of as the better player

I don't think that's why people think of Duncan as a better player.

Whether it be consciously or subconsciously, I think you could make the argument that Duncan's often considered the better player because of the success he's had which can certainly be attributed to a significantly better supporting cast.

Maybe I'm just wearing my Green-tinted glasses, but I've started to reconsider the KG-Duncan debate. At the end of the day the only thing I've been able to decide is this - I don't think it should be as open & shut case as it's often made.

Yeah, I see what you're saying I guess. My first thought is, "Because he won 4 championships." and how much of that was because Duncan was just 'better' and how much its because his teams were better is at the crux of the debate.

My thought is that I'll just never be able to separate how much of it is that Duncan's "better" and how much of it is that Duncan's supporting cast made him "better." I'm not sure if it's just that Duncan's that much better, or his cast helped hide his 'flaws' better.

I keep coming back to the same thought; does the marginal difference in defensive ability between Garnett and Duncan outweigh the offensive advantage Duncan has over Garnett? I'm really not that sure.

Two things I must admit -

Obviously I have a pony in the race. Garnett's a Celtic and he's always been one of my favorite players.

Secondly, I probably wasn't quite old enough to truly appreciate them in their primes. I'm 28 (and a half!), I've played basketball my whole life, and watched it just the same - but I'd that I truly understood the game up until the past few years. So there's some understanding that my memories of their primes are slightly jaded and not terrifically educated.

[wdleehi]

For the people that automatically pick Duncan over KG how much will the pendulum swing if the Celts play the Spurs in the finals and win?

I think as long as KG plays a fairly prominent role it should swing to at least even. What do you think?

Would he need to get MVP or would that completely swing it? Would he have to shut down Duncan and still average 18-20? Would it really not do too much for you?

Its a long way away and maybe wont happen but god that'd be fun. And think of the type of motivation KG would have with the constant chatter about Duncan being better

It wouldn't make a difference.  This is not Duncan vs. KG in their prime.


In his prime, I consider Duncan the top PF to ever play and a top 10 player. 

[NoraG1]

I don't know if the gap was far enough for their relative team performance.  Duncan's teams had better talent, yes, but they didn't exactly squeak by Garnett's Wolves teams.  One franchise won 4 rings while the other took almost a decade to get out of the first round.  Heck, Pierce made it out of the first round with worse teams.

Pierce played in the East. If KG played in the East he would have  gotten out of the first round. West was way better then the East. Kobe, Shaq, Duncan just to name a few..These are the teams KG played against in the 1st round. You have to have more talent then KG had around him most of the time to beat these teams

[drza44]

For the people that automatically pick Duncan over KG how much will the pendulum swing if the Celts play the Spurs in the finals and win?

I think as long as KG plays a fairly prominent role it should swing to at least even. What do you think?

Would he need to get MVP or would that completely swing it? Would he have to shut down Duncan and still average 18-20? Would it really not do too much for you?

Its a long way away and maybe wont happen but god that'd be fun. And think of the type of motivation KG would have with the constant chatter about Duncan being better

It wouldn't make a difference.  This is not Duncan vs. KG in their prime.


In his prime, I consider Duncan the top PF to ever play and a top 10 player. 

I, too, consider Duncan to be a top 10 player of all time.  Where we differ is that I believe the same to be true about KG.

I frankly think that KG was the best player in the NBA from about 2003 until about 2008, and the only reason that Duncan is so universally considered better is the championships.  So my opinion probably won't be changed by what happens from here on.

That said, both KG and Duncan are playing at an unreal level right now.  If that continues, I think it'd be a bit of a cop out to "disqualify" it from their resumes just because they're older.

[indeedproceed]

Secondly, I probably wasn't quite old enough to truly appreciate them in their primes. I'm 28 (and a half!), I've played basketball my whole life, and watched it just the same - but I'd that I truly understood the game up until the past few years. So there's some understanding that my memories of their primes are slightly jaded and not terrifically educated.

10/83. High five!