Author Topic: Tim Duncan Hates KG?  (Read 36061 times)

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Re: Tim Duncan Hates KG?
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2012, 11:35:10 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Since joining a real team (like Duncan's Spurs), KG is 4-3 against Duncan and averaging 17 PPG, 8 RPG, 2 APG.

Duncan had Robinson next to him in those early years and then he had Parker, Manu and Co. in the seasons after...

I'm not saying that Duncan isn't one of the greatest big men of all time,  but it's not like those SAS vs MIN match-ups were just Duncan vs. KG.

Exactly.

I still wonder from time to time how things would've been if KG had David Robinson, Manu or TP.


Or...if Tim Duncan had Sam Casell, Rasho Nesterovic, or Sprewell.......

In 2003, Tim Duncan's second leading scorer (Tony Parker) averaged 15.5 points per game, and 14.7 points in the playoffs.  Manu Ginobili averaged 7.6 points. I think sometimes people put too much emphasis on Duncan's supporting cast.  He was an individually great player who carried his teams to playoff success.

Overrate. Certainly.

But that still was still a considerably better cast than KG ever had in Minnesota.

34   Mengke Bateer   C   6-11   290   November 20, 1975   1   
12   Bruce Bowen   F   6-7   185   June 14, 1971   6   California State University, Fullerton
23   Devin Brown   G   6-5   220   December 30, 1978   R   University of Texas at San Antonio
10   Speedy Claxton   G   5-11   166   May 8, 1978   1   Hofstra University
21   Tim Duncan   F-C   6-11   248   April 25, 1976   5   Wake Forest University
35   Danny Ferry   F   6-10   230   October 17, 1966   12   Duke University
20   Manu Ginobili   G   6-6   210   July 28, 1977   R   
5   Anthony Goldwire   G   6-1   182   September 6, 1971   4   University of Houston
3   Stephen Jackson   F   6-8   218   April 5, 1978   2   Butler County Community College
25   Steve Kerr   G   6-3   175   September 27, 1965   14   University of Arizona
9   Tony Parker   G   6-2   180   May 17, 1982   1   
50   David Robinson   C   7-1   235   August 6, 1965   13   United States Naval Academy
31   Malik Rose   F   6-7   250   November 23, 1974   6   Drexel University
8   Steve Smith   G   6-7   200   March 31, 1969   11   Michigan State University
42   Kevin Willis   F-C   7-0   220   September 6, 1962   17   Michigan State University

That's only if you look at names like "Manu Ginobili", "David Robinson", and "Tony Parker", and judge them like the players they later became or previously were.

That season, none of those guys were anything all that special.  Certainly, nobody on that team was playing at an all-star level outside of Duncan.

Is that really better than any supporting cast KG has had?  Better than Cassell (19.8 points) and Sprewell (16.8 points), along with Wally Z?  Or Wally, Chauncey Billups, and Terrell Brandon?

I don't think that that 2003 Spurs team is "considerably better" than what KG had at his disposal.  In fact, I think it's probably worse than KG's best teams.
I think it was probably equivalent to Garnett's WCF team.

Re: Tim Duncan Hates KG?
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2012, 11:39:58 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Another thing, which goes back to something we talked about earlier, SO, is that the Spurs know how to put together a team. You might say that the talent level was lower (of course, there are what..6 former or future all-stars on there, to go with 3-4 probable HOF'ers, and tons of championship experience) than some teams, but the team as constructed really seemed to click, like a team should.

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Re: Tim Duncan Hates KG?
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2012, 11:41:59 AM »

Offline Army_of_One_Nation

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If KG ever plays against Duncan again, he should whisper to him that Tony Parker slept with his wife.
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Re: Tim Duncan Hates KG?
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2012, 11:42:32 AM »

Offline OsirusCeltics

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If Tim Duncan hates you, you must not be liked by virtually anyone.

I think this really supports the notion that KG is a bully, punk, dirty, or whatever you want to call him.  I mean Tim Duncan hates you.  That says a great deal.

Since when is Duncan the pulse of the NBA?
Actions on the court shouldn't reflect the true personality of that person
Reservedness doesn't always mean humbleness
Who said anything about on the court?  Duncan is almost always respectful off the court as well.  BTW, most everyone that talks about him talks about how respectful and humble he is.  

Yeah but to echo, nobody has ever had any illusions (or at least they shouldn't) that Garnett is anything but a complete (butt)hole to anyone who isn't a member of whatever team he's on. His whole deal is and always has been that on the court its almost a personal beef. He hates, like few others hate in the jaded, business-first post-AAU era of professional basketball.

So for a guy like Duncan, who has always seemed to get off more on the perfection of the game, more a of purist, its not really a surprise that he took Garnett's personal professional hatred of him personally and reciprocated.
I wasn't surprised at all that Duncan hates KG, I was just using it as proof that KG must really be **** if Duncan hates him (because Duncan doesn't hate anyone).  That was the point I was getting at.  

You don't think its possible Duncan and KG are not friends?
Maybe Duncan doesn't actually hang out with KG in the offseason to play pool. The only example he has of KG's character is on the court, which we all know KG acts wild on the court
And who cares if Duncan hates him. Did it effect KG when he won the title in '08? I don't think so

Re: Tim Duncan Hates KG?
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2012, 11:46:25 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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If Tim Duncan hates you, you must not be liked by virtually anyone.

I think this really supports the notion that KG is a bully, punk, dirty, or whatever you want to call him.  I mean Tim Duncan hates you.  That says a great deal.

Since when is Duncan the pulse of the NBA?
Actions on the court shouldn't reflect the true personality of that person
Reservedness doesn't always mean humbleness
Who said anything about on the court?  Duncan is almost always respectful off the court as well.  BTW, most everyone that talks about him talks about how respectful and humble he is. 

Yeah but to echo, nobody has ever had any illusions (or at least they shouldn't) that Garnett is anything but a complete (butt)hole to anyone who isn't a member of whatever team he's on. His whole deal is and always has been that on the court its almost a personal beef. He hates, like few others hate in the jaded, business-first post-AAU era of professional basketball.

So for a guy like Duncan, who has always seemed to get off more on the perfection of the game, more a of purist, its not really a surprise that he took Garnett's personal professional hatred of him personally and reciprocated.
I wasn't surprised at all that Duncan hates KG, I was just using it as proof that KG must really be **** if Duncan hates him (because Duncan doesn't hate anyone).  That was the point I was getting at. 

You don't think its possible Duncan and KG are not friends?
Maybe Duncan doesn't actually hang out with KG in the offseason to play pool. The only example he has of KG's character is on the court, which we all know KG acts wild on the court
And who cares if Duncan hates him. Did it effect KG when he won the title in '08? I don't think so

I don't think you're getting the point. You're countering an argument he's not making.

Moranis is basically just saying, "Yeah we knew that on the court KG was a jerk but this really illustrates just how much."


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like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Tim Duncan Hates KG?
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2012, 11:47:35 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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Wouldn't that be a dream finals?

Boring? No, these two teams play the most exciting brand of basketball I've seen anyone play in the last decade.  I guess that's all a matter of aesthetics.

As to Gentleman Tim vs. the dirty, grimy, nasty, smack talking, elbow throwing, mouth foaming Kevin Garnett;  I've always liked Tim Duncan (how can you not?), but if it comes down to a match up with our Celtics, I would love nothing more to see our KG and the gang take those nice guys down.

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PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Tim Duncan Hates KG?
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2012, 11:49:19 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Wouldn't that be a dream finals?

Boring? No, these two teams play the most exciting brand of basketball I've seen anyone play in the last decade.  I guess that's all a matter of aesthetics.

As to Gentleman Tim vs. the dirty, grimy, nasty, smack talking, elbow throwing, mouth foaming Kevin Garnett;  I've always liked Tim Duncan (how can you not?), but if it comes down to a match up with our Celtics, I would love nothing more to see our KG and the gang take those nice guys down.


If the C's played the Spurs in the Finals, the Celtics would be the boring team lol.

Re: Tim Duncan Hates KG?
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2012, 11:49:37 AM »

Offline drza44

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That's only if you look at names like "Manu Ginobili", "David Robinson", and "Tony Parker", and judge them like the players they later became or previously were.

That season, none of those guys were anything all that special.  Certainly, nobody on that team was playing at an all-star level outside of Duncan.

Is that really better than any supporting cast KG has had?  Better than Cassell (19.8 points) and Sprewell (16.8 points), along with Wally Z?  Or Wally, Chauncey Billups, and Terrell Brandon?

I don't think that that 2003 Spurs team is "considerably better" than what KG had at his disposal.  In fact, I think it's probably worse than KG's best teams.

It's an interesting debate, and one I've been in a bunch of times.  A couple things I'd point out to take into effect:

*Tim Duncan absolutely carried that Spurs squad in a way rarely matched.  We only have +/- data going back about a decade, but over that stretch I'm pretty sure that no one player has had a higher playoff on/off-court +/- on a team that won a championship than the roughly +24 that Duncan had on those Spurs.  He was dominant, and huge impact.

*That said, that '03 Spurs cast is under-rated by the fact that so many equate individual offense with quality play.  With David Robinson (even diminished) for roughly half of the game, Bruce Bowen, Stephen Jackson, and Manu Ginobili the Spurs featured some of the best defensive players per position in the NBA even outside of Duncan, who was arguably the best defensive player in the league himself.  Put that in Pops' system, and you had a defensive juggernaut of a team out there.

Similarly, that Spurs team went about 8 deep with legitimate offensive contributors.  None great, but with their depth there was almost always a 2nd and 3rd player contributing solid scoring around the given Duncan.  Now, it might be a different 2nd and 3rd player every game, but usually there was someone there.

The '03 Spurs were filled with players that were either past their primes or not quite there yet, but they WERE talented players that were excellent defensively and just decent enough offensively to support their transcendant superstar.  Duncan did a lot with that squad, but they did give him something to work with.

*Re: KG's casts, I'd say that the '04 squad had a comparable cast to the '03 Spurs...when they were healthy.  But with Sam Cassell (and Troy Hudson) both down with injury by the WCF, and Szczerbiak playing with a fractured back, that Wolves talent level fell way below the '03 Spurs by the time they were put out.  If you want to compare KG's results with the '04 Cast to Duncana's up through the conference finals, I'd say KG was at least matching him.  After that, all bets were off.

And the Wolves never really had Wally, Brandon and a contributing Billups at the same time.  Brandon's career-ending injury early in the year was precisely what let Billups start getting real PT, and though he used that to prove himself he was still very rough as a point guard.  Couple that with the general lack of talent at the other positions and the lack of a championship-caliber coaching framework (especially on defense), and that Wolves team was considerably weaker than either the '04 Wolves or the '03 Spurs.

Re: Tim Duncan Hates KG?
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2012, 11:50:40 AM »

Offline jacksmedulaoblongata

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It's always funny to me when I hear someone say "everybody hates KG".  Chauncey Billups has talked about how much he likes and respects KG. Sheed got in trouble with his Piston teammates for hugging with him before games in the ECF, and they played head to head for years.  A lot of people don't like him, but not everybody.  

Re: Tim Duncan Hates KG?
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2012, 11:55:52 AM »

Offline StartOrien

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That's only if you look at names like "Manu Ginobili", "David Robinson", and "Tony Parker", and judge them like the players they later became or previously were.

That season, none of those guys were anything all that special.  Certainly, nobody on that team was playing at an all-star level outside of Duncan.

Is that really better than any supporting cast KG has had?  Better than Cassell (19.8 points) and Sprewell (16.8 points), along with Wally Z?  Or Wally, Chauncey Billups, and Terrell Brandon?

I don't think that that 2003 Spurs team is "considerably better" than what KG had at his disposal.  In fact, I think it's probably worse than KG's best teams.

It's an interesting debate, and one I've been in a bunch of times.  A couple things I'd point out to take into effect:

*Tim Duncan absolutely carried that Spurs squad in a way rarely matched.  We only have +/- data going back about a decade, but over that stretch I'm pretty sure that no one player has had a higher playoff on/off-court +/- on a team that won a championship than the roughly +24 that Duncan had on those Spurs.  He was dominant, and huge impact.

*That said, that '03 Spurs cast is under-rated by the fact that so many equate individual offense with quality play.  With David Robinson (even diminished) for roughly half of the game, Bruce Bowen, Stephen Jackson, and Manu Ginobili the Spurs featured some of the best defensive players per position in the NBA even outside of Duncan, who was arguably the best defensive player in the league himself.  Put that in Pops' system, and you had a defensive juggernaut of a team out there.

Similarly, that Spurs team went about 8 deep with legitimate offensive contributors.  None great, but with their depth there was almost always a 2nd and 3rd player contributing solid scoring around the given Duncan.  Now, it might be a different 2nd and 3rd player every game, but usually there was someone there.

The '03 Spurs were filled with players that were either past their primes or not quite there yet, but they WERE talented players that were excellent defensively and just decent enough offensively to support their transcendant superstar.  Duncan did a lot with that squad, but they did give him something to work with.

*Re: KG's casts, I'd say that the '04 squad had a comparable cast to the '03 Spurs...when they were healthy.  But with Sam Cassell (and Troy Hudson) both down with injury by the WCF, and Szczerbiak playing with a fractured back, that Wolves talent level fell way below the '03 Spurs by the time they were put out.  If you want to compare KG's results with the '04 Cast to Duncana's up through the conference finals, I'd say KG was at least matching him.  After that, all bets were off.

And the Wolves never really had Wally, Brandon and a contributing Billups at the same time.  Brandon's career-ending injury early in the year was precisely what let Billups start getting real PT, and though he used that to prove himself he was still very rough as a point guard.  Couple that with the general lack of talent at the other positions and the lack of a championship-caliber coaching framework (especially on defense), and that Wolves team was considerably weaker than either the '04 Wolves or the '03 Spurs.

Well wish I knew you were working on this when I was struggling through my 9th draft of dribble trying to say what you rightfully pointed out.

One thing I'd point out - Malik Rose and Kevin Willis were both exceptional off the bench as well.

Re: Tim Duncan Hates KG?
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2012, 11:56:08 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Hmmm....So Duncan supposedly hates KG.

All this means to me, is Duncan is a little thinner skinned than people thought he was.  This is exactly what KG does, get in your head.  If Duncan hates KG due to on-court antics, then KG accomplished what he set out to do.

KG the player and KG the person are separate.  People who can't understand that concept are missing the point.

I'm curious why, after all these years, a story like this would come out now though.  Maybe Duncan is scared he'll have to finally face KG in the playoffs on equal footing.  KG is a vastly better player at this point in their respective careers.

By the way, for my money, KG has always been the better player.  I felt this way long before KG ever came to Boston.


Re: Tim Duncan Hates KG?
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2012, 11:59:29 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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Since the BOS-LA rubber match is looking like a lost cause, I would so love to have a San Antonio-Boston Finals this year. 

Long way to go but certainly within the realm of possibility. 


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Re: Tim Duncan Hates KG?
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2012, 11:59:59 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Pretty sure Duncan also hates Joey Crawford.

The only people who do not are Joey's mother and David Stern...

Re: Tim Duncan Hates KG?
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2012, 12:06:31 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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Pretty sure Duncan also hates Joey Crawford.

The only people who do not are Joey's mother and David Stern...

Sean Grande has an uncomfortable man crush on him.

Re: Tim Duncan Hates KG?
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2012, 12:06:48 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Since the BOS-LA rubber match is looking like a lost cause, I would so love to have a San Antonio-Boston Finals this year. 

Long way to go but certainly within the realm of possibility. 

I've wanted a Celtics v Spurs Finals ever since KG came to Boston.  I would love to see KG finally get his chance to show who the better player really is.  No better stage than the Finals.