This team CANNOT WIN a championship without Ray Allen

[LeoMoreno]

Everyone is talking about Ray's distracting of the opponents because of being such a threat, how he can find room for himself to receive a pass and shoot, about his tireless running around the court exhausting opposing SG's, but nobody seemed to predict this: Without Ray, nobody on the team believes they can hit a three.

[nickagneta]

Just so we are all on the same page, Ray has been just about lights out in one playoff series every year he's been here.

But he has also, absolutely sucked in one series every year except last year as well.

In 2008 against Cleveland: 9.2 PPG, 32.8% FG% 16.7% 3PT%

In 2009 against Orlando: 13.1 PPG, 34.4% FG%, 19.0 3PT%, 2.1 TOPG

In 2010 against LA: 14.6 PPG, 36.7% FG%, 29.3% 3PT%
But in order to attain these bad numbers he had one outstanding game. Take that game away and his numbers fall to
11.6 PPG, 31.4% FG%, 13.3% 3PT%

When on in the playoffs Ray is amazing but in order to be on he needs to be healthy and right now he isn't. Get well Ray and hopefully come back and help.

But I still think even if he doesn't play another game this year, the C's can win it all. There's no way this team keeps shooting as poorly as they have from three.

[tenn_smoothie]

But I don't think for a second he has to play in order for this team to succeed during this playoff season.

have you not noticed that the last impressive win for the C's was at Miami and that was the last game that Ray played in.

all these comments about Ray being ineffective for playoff stretches evidently have no clue about basketball.

isn't this the same Ray Allen who single-handedly won game 2 in LA in 2010 ? if you want to criticize his struggles the rest of that series, remember that one of the dirtiest guys in the league, Ron Artest shoved a knee into Ray's thigh in game 3 and thus hampered Allen's lift on his jump shot.

isn't this the same Ray Allen who rained 3's down on the Lakers in the game 6 clincher in '08 or made the game clinching drive in game 4 of that same year ??

We Need Ray Allen to Win a Title - end of discussion.

Ray won game 2 but couldnt hit a shot for the rest of the series lol.

hey loghead - i explained that in my comments - if you follow the Celts, you should have known what happened anyway.

[tenn_smoothie]

Don't believe this whatsoever. I have no stats to back my opinion. But Ray has been an afterthought to this team for weeks and weeks and the team has continued to win against the toughest competition.

I think if he returns and can not be the Ray that we have come accustomed to he may actually hurt this team more than help them. If he returns and is not hitting threes and is having opposing players blow by him and giving up big points like he was for most of the last couple of months, I think it hurts this team more than helps.

If he returns and can be the efficient outside shooting presence and won't be a sieve on defense, I think he will help this team considerably.

But I don't think for a second he has to play in order for this team to succeed during this playoff season.

have you not noticed that the last impressive win for the C's was at Miami and that was the last game that Ray played in.

all these comments about Ray being ineffective for playoff stretches evidently have no clue about basketball.

isn't this the same Ray Allen who single-handedly won game 2 in LA in 2010 ? if you want to criticize his struggles the rest of that series, remember that one of the dirtiest guys in the league, Ron Artest shoved a knee into Ray's thigh in game 3 and thus hampered Allen's lift on his jump shot.

isn't this the same Ray Allen who rained 3's down on the Lakers in the game 6 clincher in '08 or made the game clinching drive in game 4 of that same year ??

We Need Ray Allen to Win a Title - end of discussion.

Ray won game 2 but couldnt hit a shot for the rest of the series lol.

And why couldn't he a shot for the rest of the series 2 YEARS AGO??

Because he was hurt and hurt in his leg area. What is he now 2 YEARS LATER? He's hurt in his leg area so bad he hasn't played in weeks.

The last impressive win the C's had was against the hawks, Ray didn't play. The win versus Miami that Ray played in, he was nearly a non factor scoring nine points in 35 minutes.

Sorry tennessee smoothie your arguments didn't dissuade me from my opinion and quite honestly your misinformation only goes to solidify my opinion

The injured Ray Allen that currently exists is not going to make a huge difference to this team if he plays. It is no coincidence that the Celtics played much better when Ray was hurt or played off the bench. His defense this year was awful.

sorry Nick, but your lack of understanding of the game kinda makes my argument.

first, obviously an injured Ray Allen is not going to help this team anymore than an injured Pierce, Garnett or Rondo would. when anyone is hurt, their effectiveness is limited. i reiterate my point that we cannot win #18 without a close-to-healthy Ray.

as for the Miami game and the 9 pts., just his presence on the court opens the offense up and maybe you didn't notice how often it grinds to a halt without his outside threat - or how much work and attention the opponent has to put in to defend Allen.

this group has always struggled a bit offensively - just not a lot of easy baskets - even in '08. given that reality, trying to win a title without our best shooter will be almost impossible.

[tenn_smoothie]

"Fortunately Ray had a good playoff run that year"

hold on - i thought Ray NEVR had a good playoff run in a Celtics uniform ??

[nickagneta]

Don't believe this whatsoever. I have no stats to back my opinion. But Ray has been an afterthought to this team for weeks and weeks and the team has continued to win against the toughest competition.

I think if he returns and can not be the Ray that we have come accustomed to he may actually hurt this team more than help them. If he returns and is not hitting threes and is having opposing players blow by him and giving up big points like he was for most of the last couple of months, I think it hurts this team more than helps.

If he returns and can be the efficient outside shooting presence and won't be a sieve on defense, I think he will help this team considerably.

But I don't think for a second he has to play in order for this team to succeed during this playoff season.

have you not noticed that the last impressive win for the C's was at Miami and that was the last game that Ray played in.

all these comments about Ray being ineffective for playoff stretches evidently have no clue about basketball.

isn't this the same Ray Allen who single-handedly won game 2 in LA in 2010 ? if you want to criticize his struggles the rest of that series, remember that one of the dirtiest guys in the league, Ron Artest shoved a knee into Ray's thigh in game 3 and thus hampered Allen's lift on his jump shot.

isn't this the same Ray Allen who rained 3's down on the Lakers in the game 6 clincher in '08 or made the game clinching drive in game 4 of that same year ??

We Need Ray Allen to Win a Title - end of discussion.

Ray won game 2 but couldnt hit a shot for the rest of the series lol.

And why couldn't he a shot for the rest of the series 2 YEARS AGO??

Because he was hurt and hurt in his leg area. What is he now 2 YEARS LATER? He's hurt in his leg area so bad he hasn't played in weeks.

The last impressive win the C's had was against the hawks, Ray didn't play. The win versus Miami that Ray played in, he was nearly a non factor scoring nine points in 35 minutes.

Sorry tennessee smoothie your arguments didn't dissuade me from my opinion and quite honestly your misinformation only goes to solidify my opinion

The injured Ray Allen that currently exists is not going to make a huge difference to this team if he plays. It is no coincidence that the Celtics played much better when Ray was hurt or played off the bench. His defense this year was awful.

sorry Nick, but your lack of understanding of the game kinda makes my argument.

first, obviously an injured Ray Allen is not going to help this team anymore than an injured Pierce, Garnett or Rondo would. when anyone is hurt, their effectiveness is limited. i reiterate my point that we cannot win #18 without a close-to-healthy Ray.

as for the Miami game and the 9 pts., just his presence on the court opens the offense up and maybe you didn't notice how often it grinds to a halt without his outside threat - or how much work and attention the opponent has to put in to defend Allen.

this group has always struggled a bit offensively - just not a lot of easy baskets - even in '08. given that reality, trying to win a title without our best shooter will be almost impossible.

You know this is the second time you have insulted me by questioning my understanding of the game or saying I had no clue.

I disagree with you. Accept that and the fact you could be wrong, same as I could since we have opposite predictions. No need to get nasty.

Here's some facts to ponder.

In the final 15 games Ray missed, the Celtics scoring average per game actually went up.

The Celtics offense has been grinding to a halt for three years as their offensive efficiency has gone from 15th in 2010 to 18th in 2011 to 25th this year. And that's with a healthy Ray Allen doing some ridiculously efficient shooting.

Ray's hurt. He's been hurt. He will be hurt the rest of the year and in the past he has shown when he plays hurt, he doesn't contribute at the same efficient rate.

Even when he was healthy, starting and shooting well, there was something wrong offensively with this team.

Adding him hurt will not help this team.

Adding him healthy will, but that's not going to happen.

But, the Celtics could still have enough without Ray to win it all. Why? Because they have played a monstrously tough schedule the last month of the year, mostly without Ray, and had one of the best records in the league over that time. And because they are the best defensive team in the league by far when KG, Rondo and Bradley are playing.

[colincb]

Just so we are all on the same page, Ray has been just about lights out in one playoff series every year he's been here.

But he has also, absolutely sucked in one series every year except last year as well.

In 2008 against Cleveland: 9.2 PPG, 32.8% FG% 16.7% 3PT%

In 2009 against Orlando: 13.1 PPG, 34.4% FG%, 19.0 3PT%, 2.1 TOPG

In 2010 against LA: 14.6 PPG, 36.7% FG%, 29.3% 3PT%
But in order to attain these bad numbers he had one outstanding game. Take that game away and his numbers fall to
11.6 PPG, 31.4% FG%, 13.3% 3PT%

When on in the playoffs Ray is amazing but in order to be on he needs to be healthy and right now he isn't. Get well Ray and hopefully come back and help.

But I still think even if he doesn't play another game this year, the C's can win it all. There's no way this team keeps shooting as poorly as they have from three.

Just so we're on the same page. we've had 12 playoff series in the last 4 years and you've come up with two bad ones and cherry-picked another to make a third.  Fine. So in  9 of 12 playoff series or 75% you feel that Ray showed up?  Or are you in the camp that Rays never done squat like thestackshow and a very few others.

[colincb]

I'm tired of the anti Ray talk. I'm tired of the unrealistic expectations of a 21 year old kid.

Ray Allen's impact on this team is huge. Forget the LARGE number of huge shots he has hit over these past 5 years (and it's a very large number) the spacing, playing decoy, ect. ect. ect.

We need him. It literally bothers me to hear the negative talk about him. He has done nothing but help this franchise win. Even playing incredible defense in the playoffs over the years.

If Ray was playing tonight, we win, IMO. We didn't hit a single 3 pointer tonight. Bradley is going to be a fine player, but this stage is just flat out too big for him right now..

Walter Ray Allen, please get well soon.

Ray Allen didnt show up at all in the 2008 series vs the Hawks, and has historically not shown up in the playoffs except for a few games in his Celtic career.

I dont get why you think Ray will all of the sudden be some huge scorer for the entire playoffs, he is a streak shooter, its a coin flip if hes going to have it for a series, and judging by how neither KG or PP had it for the first half, I wouldnt expect Ray after missing all this time to have it either.

This. I want Ray to be healthy and available and raining threes, but if my memory serves correctly, there hasn't been one playoff series in Ray's Celtics career in which he's been consistently good the whole series.

Finals 2008.

Where was he before the finals though? If I recall he was in the "biggest slump in NBA history"

C'mon.  You said he didn't have one good series with the Cs in his whole career.  Now you're changing the question and claiming it's the biggest slump in NBA history. Are you serious?

There's nothing that happened here that has diminished his career and he's a HOF lock. He's had one very bad series since he's been here.  Every one of the Big 4 has. KG last year against MIA getting destroyed by CB, Pierce against the Cavs in 2010 where he managed to be second highest scorer just once the whole series while struggling to contain Lebron, Rondo against the Lakers in 2008 when many were calling for him to be benched after fading under the pressure in games 3-5, Ray vs the Cavs in 2008.  It's happened to all of them.

Ray had another good series in 2008 against ATL and was in the top 3 scorers 6 of 7 games. In the 2008 Finals he was arguably the MVP. He's destroyed the record for threes in a Finals series in 2008, shot a blistering 66% for his eFG (compared to Paul's 50%), was second highest scorer, and outplayed Kobe who was his match-up.

Too long ago to remember? Ray was in the top three scorers in 8 of 9 playoff games last season tied with Pierce again, top scorer a team-leading 3 times, and beat the Knicks with a last possession come-from-behind 3 pointer with 3 seconds left on the clock in game 1 breaking their little hearts once again.

Ray's been in the top scorer in 1 in every 4 playoff games since he's been a Celtic, second to Pierce, and he's been in the top three scorers in 2 of every 3 playoff games, again second only to Pierce.

that's skewed though and not as impressive as you make it out to be. 

There was no KG in the 2009 run so the scoring was PP and Ray and not much else.  He should have been one of the top 2 scorers every game.  Fortunately Ray had a good playoff run that year. 

As for the other years, exactly who else would have been the big scorer on the team other than PP and KG?  no one.  Ray, who's primary skill is shooting, should have been in the top 3 scorers a lot more than just 2 out of 3 games, IMHO.

It's plenty impressive.  You've repeatedly said that Ray hasn't done squat in the playoffs, but that's BS.

[nickagneta]

Just so we are all on the same page, Ray has been just about lights out in one playoff series every year he's been here.

But he has also, absolutely sucked in one series every year except last year as well.

In 2008 against Cleveland: 9.2 PPG, 32.8% FG% 16.7% 3PT%

In 2009 against Orlando: 13.1 PPG, 34.4% FG%, 19.0 3PT%, 2.1 TOPG

In 2010 against LA: 14.6 PPG, 36.7% FG%, 29.3% 3PT%
But in order to attain these bad numbers he had one outstanding game. Take that game away and his numbers fall to
11.6 PPG, 31.4% FG%, 13.3% 3PT%

When on in the playoffs Ray is amazing but in order to be on he needs to be healthy and right now he isn't. Get well Ray and hopefully come back and help.

But I still think even if he doesn't play another game this year, the C's can win it all. There's no way this team keeps shooting as poorly as they have from three.

Just so we're on the same page. we've had 12 playoff series in the last 4 years and you've come up with two bad ones and cherry-picked another to make a third.  Fine. So in  9 of 12 playoff series or 75% you feel that Ray showed up?  Or are you in the camp that Rays never done squat like thestackshow and a very few others.

Nope. I love Ray. You guys were just making all sorts of nonfactual generalizations about his playoff performances and I thought it might be a good idea to straighten out the facts.

Without Ray there is no #17 or the run in 2010. He's been amazing.

[Celtics18]

3 for 25 from three point range in the first two playoff games.  I wouldn't mind having Ray Allen available.

[azzenfrost]

Ray is awesome. But not with those bone spurs bothering him.

[kgiessler]

Bradley made 4 layups yesterday 3 of them on cuts


you tell me wether we can win with Bradley making layups on cut attempts

I can't tell where you are going with this...

Is the answer you are looking for "yes" because the Celtics won?

Or are you insinuating that such performance is insufficient (despite it coming in a game that was in fact a win)?

You must be talking about the previous game, and the time stamp must be wrong for some reason.

[Kuberski33]

Don't think the C's can beat Miami, OKC or the Lakers without Ray playing a major role. The good news is I never would have thought this team was capable of beating any of these teams in a 7 game series.  The fact that this could even be considered means the Celtics have overachieved in a big way this season.

[bigjohnson34st]

I'm tired of the anti Ray talk. I'm tired of the unrealistic expectations of a 21 year old kid.

Ray Allen's impact on this team is huge. Forget the LARGE number of huge shots he has hit over these past 5 years (and it's a very large number) the spacing, playing decoy, ect. ect. ect.

We need him. It literally bothers me to hear the negative talk about him. He has done nothing but help this franchise win. Even playing incredible defense in the playoffs over the years.

If Ray was playing tonight, we win, IMO. We didn't hit a single 3 pointer tonight. Bradley is going to be a fine player, but this stage is just flat out too big for him right now..

Walter Ray Allen, please get well soon.

Ray Allen didnt show up at all in the 2008 series vs the Hawks, and has historically not shown up in the playoffs except for a few games in his Celtic career.

I dont get why you think Ray will all of the sudden be some huge scorer for the entire playoffs, he is a streak shooter, its a coin flip if hes going to have it for a series, and judging by how neither KG or PP had it for the first half, I wouldnt expect Ray after missing all this time to have it either.

You could not be more wrong. He broke the Final series record for 3 pointers in 2008.

[SHAQATTACK]

With the current line up I wouldn't ever say "CAN'T" , but I would say probally won't . Very slim chance, even with Ray.

We will be lucky to make it out of the first round .  ANd if we do ...I'll be tickled pink , because thats way further than I would have hoped for after .... losing Jeff Green, the trade for West fails, not bringing Delonte back,  Losing JO , losing Wilcox, Pietrus serious Injury,  Ray being injured ,  PP and KG being out of playing shape early. And Dooling practing his masonary skills for most of the season.   Whew poor Doc !! He deserved Coach of Year.

Frankly , to make it to the second round would be like a title for me given the woes thrown at us this year.

Hope I eat words and we get a game with LA.