Metta World Peace / Artest Cheap Shot (merged threads)

[ScoobyDoo]

** I agree with this statement from Triple OT

"This is the guy who started in the first minute of the NBA Finals by assaulting Paul Pierce under the basket, "setting the tone" for the Lakers in that series.

Artest is a certifiable lunatic and if Stern doesn't suspend him for at least 10 games, I'll be stunned.  In my view, Arest's intent was to injure a key member of one of their stiffest rivals.  This kind of person doesn't belong in the NBA."

I don't think there should be any question whatsoever that Artest gets suspended, at a minimum, for the rest of the year. My only question is, is he banned for life.

That play was a Kermit Washington type play. I say this not because I hate the Lakers, which I do, or Artest, which I do...

It's more about a love of the game than hate for someone else or some other team.

Peripheral vision is a powerful tool. There is no way Artest did not know what he was doing. If you want to raise your elbows and swing them back to puff your chest it's not that violent of an act.

Do it now, at your desk. Now re-watch the video. What Artest did was completely "cock" his elbow back like you would your fist for a punch. And he did it with one elbow only, not both.

Peripheral vision / cocking the elbow and then throwing it with major force. It was a punch.

These types of plays have no place in the game. What if that elbow had fractured Harden's eye socket resulting in chronic headaches that affected his career long term.

Basketball is about skill & athleticism. It's also about strength and toughness but there is such an easy line to draw between good hard physical basketball and dangerous basketball and there is no place for the latter in the game, at any level it's played at.

Done for the year - possibly for good, period.

   

 

[j804]

^you guys are smoking something if you think he's done for the year no way that happens

[dtrader]

When you throw an elbow high like that if you don't intend it to hit someone's head you are either a child or an idiot. It was clearly intentional and should be treated like a punch.

dtrader, how do you explain him squaring off to fight with Ibaka? He did this right away without looking to see what happened to Harden, he knew what he did.

I don't exactly remember the incident with ibaka, but if ibaka watched arrest hit harden, and approached him looking like he wanted a piece of arrest in retaliation, then attest squaring up to him would make a lot of sense to me. Anytime someone approaches looking like they want trouble, I think it's smart to be ready.

Also, throwing an elbow high makes high contact likely, but when you're jumping up and down, pounding your chest and looking in the complete opposite direction, you have no idea where it will actually land. That to me is irrefutable...arrest did NOT KNOW what he would hit. A high contact on harden was most likely, but without looking, anything (or nithing) is possible.

The idea that he would (or should) have turned around to say sorry if it was an emotional "get off me" response is laughable to me. Artest is a physical player, that plays a contact sport with grown men. If he gets more physical than normal as his emotions take over, the last thing on his mind is making a thoughtful apology. The essence of an emotional response is that it isn't based on anything thought out.

The elbow had very little to do with harden running into him.  The emotional  "get off me" response I'm talking about isn't a retaliation at all. It's more about the emotional high after the dunk. He was feeling larger than life after making a great play, and wanted his space.  I've seen players push their own teammates to the side in similar celebrations. Artest took it too far, and could've hurt somebody...but I don't think it's reasonable to say he knew what he was doing. Peripheral vision is great, but if you're looking into the stands jumping around, your peripheral vision isn't near good enough to aim an elbow at a persons head while you're both moving. That's just not realistic.

[wiley]

When you throw an elbow high like that if you don't intend it to hit someone's head you are either a child or an idiot. It was clearly intentional and should be treated like a punch.

dtrader, how do you explain him squaring off to fight with Ibaka? He did this right away without looking to see what happened to Harden, he knew what he did.

I don't exactly remember the incident with ibaka, but if ibaka watched arrest hit harden, and approached him looking like he wanted a piece of arrest in retaliation, then attest squaring up to him would make a lot of sense to me. Anytime someone approaches looking like they want trouble, I think it's smart to be ready.

Also, throwing an elbow high makes high contact likely, but when you're jumping up and down, pounding your chest and looking in the complete opposite direction, you have no idea where it will actually land. That to me is irrefutable...arrest did NOT KNOW what he would hit. A high contact on harden was most likely, but without looking, anything (or nithing) is possible.

The idea that he would (or should) have turned around to say sorry if it was an emotional "get off me" response is laughable to me. Artest is a physical player, that plays a contact sport with grown men. If he gets more physical than normal as his emotions take over, the last thing on his mind is making a thoughtful apology. The essence of an emotional response is that it isn't based on anything thought out.

The elbow had very little to do with harden running into him.  The emotional  "get off me" response I'm talking about isn't a retaliation at all. It's more about the emotional high after the dunk. He was feeling larger than life after making a great play, and wanted his space.  I've seen players push their own teammates to the side in similar celebrations. Artest took it too far, and could've hurt somebody...but I don't think it's reasonable to say he knew what he was doing. Peripheral vision is great, but if you're looking into the stands jumping around, your peripheral vision isn't near good enough to aim an elbow at a persons head while you're both moving. That's just not realistic.

The problem is if you don't give him a major suspension for this incident, then what type of foul or injury do you suspend him for?  Ending someone's career?

[celts55]

^you guys are smoking something if you think he's done for the year no way that happens

Than I must be smoking something as I trully believe he should be suspended for the rest of the year, at a minimum. The guy has a long history of violance and needs to be stopped. There is no way in the world he wasn't trying to hit Harden and he sure knew he did and he just kept running down court with no remorse.
If Stern doesn't suspend him for the playoffs, he must be smoking something.

[alajet]

Artest actually has contact with Harden and then as Harden goes past by him, he swings his arm in such a way that it's almost 100% guaranteed that he will land a hit on Harden.
That's not a careless action. He just wanted to smash him to the ground. There is no other way you can put it into without making unrealistic cases.
Harden could have had a very serious injury. In fact, it's a very sensitive spot he got hit. What else does he have to get punished? Throwing punches at fans like he did years ago?

[rondofan1255]

^you guys are smoking something if you think he's done for the year no way that happens

I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that he is suspended for the entire duration of the playoffs, regardless of how far the Lakers advance.

[snively]

The question the league has to be pondering is whether a suspension will do any good.

Artest has been suspended more than probably any other player in league history.  There doesn't seem to be a single area of his decision-making that can be targeted for discipline: his violent outbursts have been random and inexplicable.

At what point does the NBA decide that it's just not worth the risk to let Artest keep playing in the league? 

[GreenFaith1819]

Don't know how to read Kobe's comment, here:

"One play in the heat of a battle, all of the sudden it changes his perception as a man and as a person? No," Bryant said. "Everybody, all you guys know what a sweet guy he is."

Full link:

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/7843190/los-angeles-lakers-metta-world-peace-ejected-elbowing-oklahoma-city-thunder-james-harden-head

That being said, I think Kobe is trying to gloss this over too much. Regardless of what Metta has done the last few years as far as trying to rehab his image, this act needs to be punished, and it should hurt the Lakers.

10 games should suffice.

Give him (and LA) ample time to think about what he did, plus his time off will give Mike Brown more time to think about a better response to Lisa Salters than:

"I don't know what happened...I didn't see it."

Plus, a 10 game (or more) suspension will perhaps give Bynum pause before HE thinks about "Letting Loose" again.

Regardless of what Metta's done, OKC now has to deal with perhaps the 6th Man of the Year being out for an untold amount of time. I pray that he comes back soon, but look at how long it's taken Pietrus to come back.

I know that Pietrus' injury was different, but it was still a concussion.

There has GOT to be a stronger message coming from David Stern and the League on this stuff. I'm all for physical play, but players can't be taking shots at guys - even in the heat of battle.

[snively]

The most [dang]ing part of the video, BTW, is Artest's reaction after felling Harden with the elbow. 

Remember Pierce after he accidentally punched the ref on a fist pump?  Dissolved into complete remorse as soon as he made contact.

Artest just blasts his elbow through Harden's head and continues roaring!  How do you not realize when your elbow makes contact with somebody's skull at that speed? 

[dtrader]

Artest actually has contact with Harden and then as Harden goes past by him, he swings his arm in such a way that it's almost 100% guaranteed that he will land a hit on Harden.
That's not a careless action. He just wanted to smash him to the ground. There is no other way you can put it into without making unrealistic cases.
Harden could have had a very serious injury. In fact, it's a very sensitive spot he got hit. What else does he have to get punished? Throwing punches at fans like he did years ago?

We can say stuff like "almost 200% guaranteed", but that's still just guessing. The only solid fact, is that Artest wasn't looking where he was hitting. He was actually looking the opposite way...while jumping around. It was highly likely that he'd hit harden since he was the last to pass him, and it's highly likely that he'd hit him high since he threw the elbow high, but none of that was really guaranteed since he didn't look.  It was reckless and dangerous, and deserves a strong penalty, but it shouldn't be fined like a punch IMO. A punch, you know EXACTLY who you'll hit, where you'll hit them, and are making a conscious decision to hit them exactly that way. A hit given without looking shouldn't be punished the same way.

Throwing a ball at a refs face while facing him, is not the same as hitting a ref in the face with the ball as you throw it over your shoulder looking down court..,even if the latter hurts the ref more.  It's a fine line, but intention is everything.

[Celtics18]

Artest actually has contact with Harden and then as Harden goes past by him, he swings his arm in such a way that it's almost 100% guaranteed that he will land a hit on Harden.
That's not a careless action. He just wanted to smash him to the ground. There is no other way you can put it into without making unrealistic cases.
Harden could have had a very serious injury. In fact, it's a very sensitive spot he got hit. What else does he have to get punished? Throwing punches at fans like he did years ago?

We can say stuff like "almost 200% guaranteed", but that's still just guessing. The only solid fact, is that Artest wasn't looking where he was hitting. He was actually looking the opposite way...while jumping around. It was highly likely that he'd hit harden since he was the last to pass him, and it's highly likely that he'd hit him high since he threw the elbow high, but none of that was really guaranteed since he didn't look.  It was reckless and dangerous, and deserves a strong penalty, but it shouldn't be fined like a punch IMO. A punch, you know EXACTLY who you'll hit, where you'll hit them, and are making a conscious decision to hit them exactly that way. A hit given without looking shouldn't be punished the same way.

Throwing a ball at a refs face while facing him, is not the same as hitting a ref in the face with the ball as you throw it over your shoulder looking down court..,even if the latter hurts the ref more.  It's a fine line, but intention is everything.

I definitely think it was more impulsive than premeditated, but I still think he deserves at least a 20 game suspension.  It was a vicious blow, even if it was in the heat of the moment.

There's no place for that kind of thing in the NBA.

[blink]

This doesn't make any sense when I review the replay.  MWP turned from his right to his left after he dunked the ball.  In the middle of that turn Harden came right into his vision.  He knew who was there.  It doesn't matter if in the split second he let his elbow go that he wasn't facing Harden.  He knew who was beside him.

He also lifts up his arm after he is in contact with Harden to make sure that his elbow will be able to make it over Harden's shoulder to hit him in the head.  You can see in the video that he moves his arm up to clear Harden's so that he can make contact. 

Saying it shouldn't be fined as much as a punch because he wasn't looking directly at the guy when he threw the elbow is dumb.  So if someone shoots a guy with a gun, but he 1/2 turned away before he does it, well then it really isn't murder because he wasn't looking at the guy.  Is that what you are saying?

Artest knew Harden was there.  He cocked his elbow and intentionally swung it at Harden's face.  We will never know what exactly he meant to do in his mind.  I am not sure that matters.  To me, the video says it all.  I am amazed at the people who are trying to blame Harden for this.  "oh he got in his face"  "he knew he should have gotten out of the way"...such bulldodo. 

Artest actually has contact with Harden and then as Harden goes past by him, he swings his arm in such a way that it's almost 100% guaranteed that he will land a hit on Harden.
That's not a careless action. He just wanted to smash him to the ground. There is no other way you can put it into without making unrealistic cases.
Harden could have had a very serious injury. In fact, it's a very sensitive spot he got hit. What else does he have to get punished? Throwing punches at fans like he did years ago?

We can say stuff like "almost 200% guaranteed", but that's still just guessing. The only solid fact, is that Artest wasn't looking where he was hitting. He was actually looking the opposite way...while jumping around. It was highly likely that he'd hit harden since he was the last to pass him, and it's highly likely that he'd hit him high since he threw the elbow high, but none of that was really guaranteed since he didn't look.  It was reckless and dangerous, and deserves a strong penalty, but it shouldn't be fined like a punch IMO. A punch, you know EXACTLY who you'll hit, where you'll hit them, and are making a conscious decision to hit them exactly that way. A hit given without looking shouldn't be punished the same way.

Throwing a ball at a refs face while facing him, is not the same as hitting a ref in the face with the ball as you throw it over your shoulder looking down court..,even if the latter hurts the ref more.  It's a fine line, but intention is everything.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

This doesn't make any sense when I review the replay.  MWP turned from his right to his left after he dunked the ball.  In the middle of that turn Harden came right into his vision.  He knew who was there.  It doesn't matter if in the split second he let his elbow go that he wasn't facing Harden.  He knew who was beside him.

He also lifts up his arm after he is in contact with Harden to make sure that his elbow will be able to make it over Harden's shoulder to hit him in the head.  You can see in the video that he moves his arm up to clear Harden's so that he can make contact. 

Saying it shouldn't be fined as much as a punch because he wasn't looking directly at the guy when he threw the elbow is dumb.  So if someone shoots a guy with a gun, but he 1/2 turned away before he does it, well then it really isn't murder because he wasn't looking at the guy.  Is that what you are saying?

Artest knew Harden was there.  He cocked his elbow and intentionally swung it at Harden's face.  We will never know what exactly he meant to do in his mind.  I am not sure that matters.  To me, the video says it all.  I am amazed at the people who are trying to blame Harden for this.  "oh he got in his face"  "he knew he should have gotten out of the way"...such bulldodo. 

Artest actually has contact with Harden and then as Harden goes past by him, he swings his arm in such a way that it's almost 100% guaranteed that he will land a hit on Harden.
That's not a careless action. He just wanted to smash him to the ground. There is no other way you can put it into without making unrealistic cases.
Harden could have had a very serious injury. In fact, it's a very sensitive spot he got hit. What else does he have to get punished? Throwing punches at fans like he did years ago?

We can say stuff like "almost 200% guaranteed", but that's still just guessing. The only solid fact, is that Artest wasn't looking where he was hitting. He was actually looking the opposite way...while jumping around. It was highly likely that he'd hit harden since he was the last to pass him, and it's highly likely that he'd hit him high since he threw the elbow high, but none of that was really guaranteed since he didn't look.  It was reckless and dangerous, and deserves a strong penalty, but it shouldn't be fined like a punch IMO. A punch, you know EXACTLY who you'll hit, where you'll hit them, and are making a conscious decision to hit them exactly that way. A hit given without looking shouldn't be punished the same way.

Throwing a ball at a refs face while facing him, is not the same as hitting a ref in the face with the ball as you throw it over your shoulder looking down court..,even if the latter hurts the ref more.  It's a fine line, but intention is everything.

One thing they are forgetting, even if Ron wasn't looking directly at him, he could see him, he is a BASKETBALL PLAYER, they can see things much slower and at angles we could never see! Players can "hit" their teammate with the ball when they aren't looking at them and they know placement better than we do! Ron knew exactly what he was doing because as you see the other times he was pounding his chest he was not as demonstrative, he clearly cocked his arm back as if he was a boxer and released full force!!

[j804]

When you throw an elbow high like that if you don't intend it to hit someone's head you are either a child or an idiot. It was clearly intentional and should be treated like a punch.

dtrader, how do you explain him squaring off to fight with Ibaka? He did this right away without looking to see what happened to Harden, he knew what he did.

I don't exactly remember the incident with ibaka, but if ibaka watched arrest hit harden, and approached him looking like he wanted a piece of arrest in retaliation, then attest squaring up to him would make a lot of sense to me. Anytime someone approaches looking like they want trouble, I think it's smart to be ready.

Also, throwing an elbow high makes high contact likely, but when you're jumping up and down, pounding your chest and looking in the complete opposite direction, you have no idea where it will actually land. That to me is irrefutable...arrest did NOT KNOW what he would hit. A high contact on harden was most likely, but without looking, anything (or nithing) is possible.

The idea that he would (or should) have turned around to say sorry if it was an emotional "get off me" response is laughable to me. Artest is a physical player, that plays a contact sport with grown men. If he gets more physical than normal as his emotions take over, the last thing on his mind is making a thoughtful apology. The essence of an emotional response is that it isn't based on anything thought out.

The elbow had very little to do with harden running into him.  The emotional  "get off me" response I'm talking about isn't a retaliation at all. It's more about the emotional high after the dunk. He was feeling larger than life after making a great play, and wanted his space.  I've seen players push their own teammates to the side in similar celebrations. Artest took it too far, and could've hurt somebody...but I don't think it's reasonable to say he knew what he was doing. Peripheral vision is great, but if you're looking into the stands jumping around, your peripheral vision isn't near good enough to aim an elbow at a persons head while you're both moving. That's just not realistic.

LOL at he wanted his space besides if he was just celebrating like you say it still makes no sense. Since when does beating your chest hitting it with his fists or whatever, require you to get your elbow bring it all the way up to the head area cock it and swing it back? (he did celebrate up until he wanted to deck whatever OKC player was beside him)