We are a Jsmooth trade away from smooth transition into life post Big 3

[nickagneta]

But Nick - would you attribute your assessment of Josh Smith to him?

Or the coaches he's had?

You can coach players to play intelligently and to play within a system and take no their limits and play within themselves all you want but if a player thinks he is better at something than he is or wants to play a certain way, he's going to.

Rajon Rondo loves to coast at times defensively and gamble on defense. Even though he has one of the best coaches in the league, a coach who stresses defense and effort, Rondo still does this after 6 years with Doc. Doc isn't going to change him.

Allen Iverson shot way, way, way too much and didn't pass nearly enough. That never changed and yet he had Larry Brown and George Karl as coaches. Great coaches, yet they never changed him.

A player can change if they want to change, it has nothing to do with coaching, it has to do with the player and frankly, Smith is one of those players I don't see ever changing. He doesn't have the mental makeup of a Pierce, Allen, Garnett, Kobe, Etc, that will mature and change their game for the good of the team. At least in my opinion he doesn't.

[jgod213]

I don't understand how you can NOT be infatuated with him.  His one of the best help defenders of the past 5-10 years, he rebounds at an excellent rate for a smaller PF, he's a willing passer, still has that explosiveness, and he's even getting better as an on-ball defender.

I see 2 issues with JSmoove:
1) He's never been on a veteran-laden team
2) He's being asked to do far too much for a depleted Hawks team.

Please allow me to retort to your two issues with Josh Smith:

1. WHAT!!!!!!!

2009-10 Hawks

Mike Bibby - 11 years experience
Jason Collins - 8 years experience
Jamal Crawford - 9 years experience
Maurice Evans - 6 years experience
Joe Johnson - 8 years experience
Zaza Pachulia - 6 years experience
Joe Smith - 14 years experience
Josh Smith - 5 years experience
Marvin Williams - 4 years experience

Not only was this team experienced it was talented as it also had young players Al Horford and Jeff Teague on the team.

2. When exactly has Smith been asked to shoulder too large a load on that Hawks team? Joe Johnson has been extremely healthy since arriving in Atlanta and except for this year, Horford has as well. There's also been Crawford, Bibby, Teague, Williams, Pachulia and Hinrich that have been regular contributors there over the years.

Smith, simply put, likes to shoot and likes to shoot from outside. But he's not very good at it. He loves to play weak side defense and rack up blocked shots and steals from cheating off his man. There is, after all, a reason he averages lots of steals and blocks and yet has only made one 2nd team All-Defense Team. It's because he has the ability to be a great defender but instead concentrates on the spectacular play instead of the smart play.

1. Yep that '09-'10 team had some more vets than i realized, but i wouldn't really call any of them particularly good leaders.  Collins/Evans/Pachulia all excel at particular roles, but i wouldn't consider them team leaders.  Further, the more talented guys on that squad - Johnson, Bibby, Crawford - have never been particularly vocal or notable leaders.  I can't knock JJ too much, but he does go about his business pretty quietly.  Good vet presence, not a lot of accountability.

2. I should've been more clear - that statement was meant to reflect what this years Hawks team has had to deal with - specifically the Horford injury.  Other than Horford they've been ok, but that injury forced Smith to handle a lot more of the rebounding, help defending, and scoring burden than he otherwise would've.

I just think a change of scenery - particularly to a team like the current Celtics - would be very good for him.  I think he's willing to adapt his game depending on coaching and philosophy, as evidenced by his total 3pt attempts of 87 and 7, respectively in 2009 and 2010.  He will certainly cheat defensively, but he's shown improvement over the past couple of seasons as a man defender.  I still think he has potential to grow as a player.

[Fafnir]

Kobe doesn't really fit your list of players who will take coaching Nick. Even Phil Jackson raged at how Kobe would constantly break plays and go into hero mode with jump shots late in games for his entire career.

His season this year has been a tour de force of chucking.

[GreenFaith1819]

But Nick - would you attribute your assessment of Josh Smith to him?

Or the coaches he's had?

You can coach players to play intelligently and to play within a system and take no their limits and play within themselves all you want but if a player thinks he is better at something than he is or wants to play a certain way, he's going to.

Rajon Rondo loves to coast at times defensively and gamble on defense. Even though he has one of the best coaches in the league, a coach who stresses defense and effort, Rondo still does this after 6 years with Doc. Doc isn't going to change him.

Allen Iverson shot way, way, way too much and didn't pass nearly enough. That never changed and yet he had Larry Brown and George Karl as coaches. Great coaches, yet they never changed him.

A player can change if they want to change, it has nothing to do with coaching, it has to do with the player and frankly, Smith is one of those players I don't see ever changing. He doesn't have the mental makeup of a Pierce, Allen, Garnett, Kobe, Etc, that will mature and change their game for the good of the team. At least in my opinion he doesn't.

I understand your assessment.

But I'd still bet he'd blossom here in BOS...around the best PG he's ever played with (Rondo)...around a talented, veteran  Big who would reward his effort (KG)...around vet talent who've won it all (Ray, Pierce).

Who did ATL have when they lost to us in 07-08?

Bibby? This was the same PG that a lesser Rondo abused on the regular back then.

Now? They have Teague...while he is a good PG, he is no where near the distributor as Rondo is.

I'd say get the man to different surroundings...let the man see those Banners hanging from the rafters...let him talk to Bill, Hondo, Cousy, etc - on the regular.

If what you are saying is right, Nick - I have no doubt that BOS would rub off on Josh Smith - in the right way.

No doubt.

[jgod213]

But Nick - would you attribute your assessment of Josh Smith to him?

Or the coaches he's had?

You can coach players to play intelligently and to play within a system and take no their limits and play within themselves all you want but if a player thinks he is better at something than he is or wants to play a certain way, he's going to.

Rajon Rondo loves to coast at times defensively and gamble on defense. Even though he has one of the best coaches in the league, a coach who stresses defense and effort, Rondo still does this after 6 years with Doc. Doc isn't going to change him.

Allen Iverson shot way, way, way too much and didn't pass nearly enough. That never changed and yet he had Larry Brown and George Karl as coaches. Great coaches, yet they never changed him.

A player can change if they want to change, it has nothing to do with coaching, it has to do with the player and frankly, Smith is one of those players I don't see ever changing. He doesn't have the mental makeup of a Pierce, Allen, Garnett, Kobe, Etc, that will mature and change their game for the good of the team. At least in my opinion he doesn't.

I understand your assessment.

But I'd still bet he'd blossom here in BOS...around the best PG he's ever played with (Rondo)...around a talented, veteran  Big who would reward his effort (KG)...around vet talent who've won it all (Ray, Pierce).

Who did ATL have when they lost to us in 07-08?

Bibby? This was the same PG that a lesser Rondo abused on the regular back then.

Now? They have Teague...while he is a good PG, he is no where near the distributor as Rondo is.

I'd say get the man to different surroundings...let the man see those Banners hanging from the rafters...let him talk to Bill, Hondo, Cousy, etc - on the regular.

If what you are saying is right, Nick - I have no doubt that BOS would rub off on Josh Smith - in the right way.

No doubt.

I think we're on the same page here, GF, but I think a change in Smith's game/attitude would hinge more on him working with KG as opposed to Rondo.  Smith would definitely enjoy running a fast break with Rondo, but i think KG is more crucial to his developement because KG embodies what Smith should aspire to be.  He will never have KG's jumper or his instincts, but he has the raw ability to do things similar to KG on the defensive end, if he can just subjugate his ego. 

To that end, it's just a question of whether or not you think Smith would take advantage of that situation.

[GreenFaith1819]

But Nick - would you attribute your assessment of Josh Smith to him?

Or the coaches he's had?

You can coach players to play intelligently and to play within a system and take no their limits and play within themselves all you want but if a player thinks he is better at something than he is or wants to play a certain way, he's going to.

Rajon Rondo loves to coast at times defensively and gamble on defense. Even though he has one of the best coaches in the league, a coach who stresses defense and effort, Rondo still does this after 6 years with Doc. Doc isn't going to change him.

Allen Iverson shot way, way, way too much and didn't pass nearly enough. That never changed and yet he had Larry Brown and George Karl as coaches. Great coaches, yet they never changed him.

A player can change if they want to change, it has nothing to do with coaching, it has to do with the player and frankly, Smith is one of those players I don't see ever changing. He doesn't have the mental makeup of a Pierce, Allen, Garnett, Kobe, Etc, that will mature and change their game for the good of the team. At least in my opinion he doesn't.

I understand your assessment.

But I'd still bet he'd blossom here in BOS...around the best PG he's ever played with (Rondo)...around a talented, veteran  Big who would reward his effort (KG)...around vet talent who've won it all (Ray, Pierce).

Who did ATL have when they lost to us in 07-08?

Bibby? This was the same PG that a lesser Rondo abused on the regular back then.

Now? They have Teague...while he is a good PG, he is no where near the distributor as Rondo is.

I'd say get the man to different surroundings...let the man see those Banners hanging from the rafters...let him talk to Bill, Hondo, Cousy, etc - on the regular.

If what you are saying is right, Nick - I have no doubt that BOS would rub off on Josh Smith - in the right way.

No doubt.

I think we're on the same page here, GF, but I think a change in Smith's game/attitude would hinge more on him working with KG as opposed to Rondo.  Smith would definitely enjoy running a fast break with Rondo, but i think KG is more crucial to his developement because KG embodies what Smith should aspire to be.  He will never have KG's jumper or his instincts, but he has the raw ability to do things similar to KG on the defensive end, if he can just subjugate his ego. 

To that end, it's just a question of whether or not you think Smith would take advantage of that situation.

Good point..didn't even consider that side of it (KG)...Josh is younger, so I'd be hopeful that he'd listen.

KG supposedly has a shorter leash with players, too....toss in the fact that Josh is at that critical point in his career where he's 26 (27?), and he could be of the mindset to not listen to KG.

That would not be good at all - for him or BOS.

So he'd need to check his ego at the door. I can agree with that.

Hopefully, he'd know what's at stake. BOS isn't just any team.

[Mr October]

salary cap wise, Smith probably isn't a good option. I only want to renounce the current free agents if KG retires. IF KG stays in Boston, then I'd rather have the combination of Bass, Green, Pietrus, Allen, Stiemsma over Smith.

The financials:

Pierce, Rondo, Bradley, Johnson, 2 firsts cost: $32-33 million
KG might cost $12 million.
If the cap is 55-58, the C's would only have $11-14m to spend on free agents. josh Smith would require almost all of that in a trade.

...

But if KG retires, and the Hawks want to trade him in a salary dump and a couple of the young guys, I might be tempted to try him out for a year.

[LooseCannon]

One thing that really bothers me about Smith is that he took a lot of threes for several seasons, then in 2009-2010 he took only 13 threes while taking 616 shots desribed as "at rim" while the Hawks had 53 wins, the most with Josh Smith on the team.  The next season, his shots go up from 1128 to 1212, but his shots at the rim go down to 379 and he's jacking up 178 threes. (Stats for regular season and playoffs combined.)

You may interpret this as proof that Smith can change his ways, but I see it as proof that any change will be temporary.

Here is my favorite Josh Smith story:

The coach benched Smith midway through the fourth quarter of Atlanta’s win over the Sixers on Friday after he missed a 22-footer and a 20-footer after Drew instructed him to avoid such shots. Smith threw a bit of a tantrum in response. He yelled at Drew as he went to the bench and spent the rest of the game sulking and ignoring team huddles. This is the sort of thing that quickly becomes a dangerous situation for a player and his team.

But Smith, to his credit, apologized immediately after the game, according to Michael Cunningham of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution....

[snip]

But Smith went right back to firing away the next night in Miami. Of Smith’s first four shots, one was a 16-foot jumper (he missed) and two were three-pointers that the Heat invited him to take. Smith made both threes, but he appeared to perturb Drew again in doing so. The second Smith released his first three-pointer, Drew got up from his seat on the bench and pointed to another player to get up and check in. No exaggeration here: The shot was still in midair when Drew rose from his seat.

[GreenFaith1819]

One thing that really bothers me about Smith is that he took a lot of threes for several seasons, then in 2009-2010 he took only 13 threes while taking 616 shots desribed as "at rim" while the Hawks had 53 wins, the most with Josh Smith on the team.  The next season, his shots go up from 1128 to 1212, but his shots at the rim go down to 379 and he's jacking up 178 threes. (Stats for regular season and playoffs combined.)

You may interpret this as proof that Smith can change his ways, but I see it as proof that any change will be temporary.

Here is my favorite Josh Smith story:

The coach benched Smith midway through the fourth quarter of Atlanta’s win over the Sixers on Friday after he missed a 22-footer and a 20-footer after Drew instructed him to avoid such shots. Smith threw a bit of a tantrum in response. He yelled at Drew as he went to the bench and spent the rest of the game sulking and ignoring team huddles. This is the sort of thing that quickly becomes a dangerous situation for a player and his team.

But Smith, to his credit, apologized immediately after the game, according to Michael Cunningham of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution....

[snip]

But Smith went right back to firing away the next night in Miami. Of Smith’s first four shots, one was a 16-foot jumper (he missed) and two were three-pointers that the Heat invited him to take. Smith made both threes, but he appeared to perturb Drew again in doing so. The second Smith released his first three-pointer, Drew got up from his seat on the bench and pointed to another player to get up and check in. No exaggeration here: The shot was still in midair when Drew rose from his seat.

That was from Dec 2010, I believe....is there any recent activity from him like that?

[CoachBo]

But Nick - would you attribute your assessment of Josh Smith to him?

Or the coaches he's had?

You can coach players to play intelligently and to play within a system and take no their limits and play within themselves all you want but if a player thinks he is better at something than he is or wants to play a certain way, he's going to.

Rajon Rondo loves to coast at times defensively and gamble on defense. Even though he has one of the best coaches in the league, a coach who stresses defense and effort, Rondo still does this after 6 years with Doc. Doc isn't going to change him.

Allen Iverson shot way, way, way too much and didn't pass nearly enough. That never changed and yet he had Larry Brown and George Karl as coaches. Great coaches, yet they never changed him.

A player can change if they want to change, it has nothing to do with coaching, it has to do with the player and frankly, Smith is one of those players I don't see ever changing. He doesn't have the mental makeup of a Pierce, Allen, Garnett, Kobe, Etc, that will mature and change their game for the good of the team. At least in my opinion he doesn't.

Completely agree. Smith is another headstrong, immature player who has shown no ability to grow up, IMHO.

[paintitgreen]

salary cap wise, Smith probably isn't a good option. I only want to renounce the current free agents if KG retires. IF KG stays in Boston, then I'd rather have the combination of Bass, Green, Pietrus, Allen, Stiemsma over Smith.

The financials:

Pierce, Rondo, Bradley, Johnson, 2 firsts cost: $32-33 million
KG might cost $12 million.
If the cap is 55-58, the C's would only have $11-14m to spend on free agents. josh Smith would require almost all of that in a trade.

...

But if KG retires, and the Hawks want to trade him in a salary dump and a couple of the young guys, I might be tempted to try him out for a year.

TP, I think this is the right way to look at it. Things start with whether KG is coming back, both because you can still build a contending team centered around him, Pierce and Rondo, and because his cap hold alone essentially puts Boston over the cap so if they want to use any space, they have to resign KG or renounce his rights.

If KG stays, you look at getting the best talent and depth you can put together to try for two more years while building up young players and staying under the luxury tax level. And to maximize resources, that likely means keeping the guys they have rights to: Allen, Bass, Green. I'm not sure the extent of their rights to Stiemsma and Pietrus as both are minimum contract guys who have been here for only one season.  

In that circumstance, Smith becomes a tough fit. Whatever the Cs give up in terms of assets (i.e., a first and Johnson or the two firsts), they basically have to add Green, Bass and Allen to what they're giving up. I think $12 is a good number for KG. If they did that and brought in Smith for Johnson and one of the firsts, they'd be right at the cap for Rondo, Bradley, Pierce, Smith and KG, with a bench of one of the firsts. They'd have to fill 3-4 rotation spots and at least 6 roster spots with only a $2.5 mil midlevel exception and minimum contracts. Not ideal.

If on the other hand they sign KG and hold onto Johnson and the first, the Celtics would be at about $45 million for Rondo, Bradley, Pierce and KG with Johnson and the two firsts, plus they hold onto Moore for $750K. To fill out the roster, they have the ability to bring back Allen, Green and Bass at any salary (provided they don't hit the luxury threshold) or pick up assets in a sign and trade of one or more of those guys. They also have a $5 million midlevel available which would be more than enough to bring back Stiemsma and Pietrus, take a run at a restricted free agent like Jason Thompson, Marreese Speights or OJ Mayo, or bring back Stiemsma and another younger player like Anthony Randolph, Ian Mahinmi, or Hasheem Thabeet.

So basically, a trade for Smith combined with keeping KG means that you're giving up two of Johnson and the two firsts, Allen, Bass, Green and about $2.5 mil in available space for outside free agents for Josh Smith. I don't think he's worth that ransom especially when he's a free agent next summer.

But if KG is gone, it becomes at least a possibility to bring some talent and entertainment to town while rebuilding.

[dlpin]

I don't understand how you can NOT be infatuated with him.  His one of the best help defenders of the past 5-10 years, he rebounds at an excellent rate for a smaller PF, he's a willing passer, still has that explosiveness, and he's even getting better as an on-ball defender.

I see 2 issues with JSmoove:
1) He's never been on a veteran-laden team
2) He's being asked to do far too much for a depleted Hawks team.

Maybe his pouting never changes and if so, that's really too bad, but man i would absolutely love to see him on the same team as KG and and Rondo, without hesitation.

Well, for one I actually live in Atlanta and see him more than just the stat sheet or occasional highlight. But don't take my word for it. Go to any Atlanta forum and you will see half the people there hate him. This from the extremely mellow atlanta fan base.

As for your 2 points,  nickagneta has addressed them.
But to recap, he had problems with 2 different coaches, with 2 different point guards (Bibby and Teague), etc. As for two large a load, he's played on a team with Joe Johnson, Jamal Crawford and Al Horford. And yet he took too many dumb shots. That is not the load being too heavy. It is him wanting to be the man.

The guy can be absolutely incredible sometimes. And then he can be lazy, detached, and playing against his strengths.

Everyone here in Atlanta hopes like crazy that he misses his first couple of long 2s, because otherwise he will keep taking them. I was talking to a friend during the last game with the celtics, and Smith started out hot. At one point he was like 6 of 8 from the field. And my friend said "just watch, now that he hit a few he will keep shooting, and will end up with less than 50% shooting for the night." And so after hitting 6 of 8, he hit 3 of 11. And this isn't a rare occurrence.
He forces too many shots, takes too many plays off, etc. etc. He can be a contributor, but not at the current price. And if he is unhappy in Atlanta because he thinks he should be featured more prominently by the ownership in promotional stuff and that he should be more involved in the game plan, imagine what he'd do in Boston behind Pierce, Rondo, etc.

[drogbagarnett]

Read that Rondo-JSmoove friendship article on BH today (http://news.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view.bg?&articleid=1061129150&format=&page=1&listingType=celt#articleFull) and thought about this discussion here...
Still think that adding Smith to our team will make it super good!
After thinking about it, I would prefer us to get:
Terry + Big AL Jefferson FOR Ray + Bass + JJJ + one of our 1st...
But if we could somehow get JSmoove to play alongside Rondo with KG next to them, I think that would be terrific!!