Author Topic: Rebounding Frustration at its peak  (Read 11395 times)

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Re: Rebounding Frustration at its peak
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2012, 11:31:14 AM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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I would argue that KG is a pretty good rebounder

I would argue that Pierce is a very good rebounder at his position

I would argue that Brandon Bass, Stiemsma, Hollins, Ray, Rondo, Bradley, etc...are all plenty big enough and plenty strong enough for this Celtics team to be a very solid rebounding team.

I would then argue that they have this really unusual, really frustrating aversion to actually boxing out and then rebounding the ball.

I'm 5'9" and about 185. I can keep a 6'4" 215 pound guy off the boards all night - "all" night, it is not that difficult to do.

The key thing it requires is boxing out and a mentality that you refuse to allow the guy to go around you or crawl over your back. That's it, not rocket science.

It's why Rodman could box out Shaq all night if that was his man. It's why Bird could get 18 boards on a night when McHale was out and he had to check Karl Malone.

It's mentality and mental toughness. It has very little to do with size.

I don't by that a 6'8" 240 pound guy ( Bass) can't check a 6'11" 232 pound guy (Noah). That's all BS.

Other teams shoot and we collectively turn around and look the rim - guys walk by us for boards.

Very simple - ball goes up, find the guy closest to you and lay wood on him. There's only five of them and we've got five too.

But when you don't lay a body on anyone when the ball goes up, now you're playing 8 on 5...

It's really up to the players - they need to be willing to get into a figurative fist fight on the boards. If they are willing to do that they could be one of the better rebounding teams in the league.

It's not that we "aren't" a good rebounding team, it's that our players collectively "refuse" to be a good rebounding team.      



 

Re: Rebounding Frustration at its peak
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2012, 11:32:21 AM »

Offline clover

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Steamer came in, busted his butt fighting for rebounds, by himself, and then got benched for Ryan Hollins. Right before he was pulled, he snagged an offensive rebound between three defenders, got fouled on the put back, and made his two free throws. Now Steamer only got that rebound last night, but fought for many others in his 11 minutes.

So Doc goes with Hollins. Why?? The kid got almost 13 minutes and zero rebounds. He does nothing but dunk. I don't get it. So Doc can throw his team under the bus about effort but these are his rotations.

Last night Steamer comes in for KG. He has to try to rebound with Bass. Bass is a terrible rebounder. If you are playing along side that kid, you are going to be doing all the dirty work on your own. Now KG and Hollins, come in together and you got another bad rebounding combination.

Over the win streak, the best defensive and rebounding combination was KG and Steamer together. Why would Doc change this? My theory is KG went to Doc asking for his buddy to play. What a mistake.

Steamer is and was a fouling machine last night. You can't just ignore that. It's one game and Doc decided to throw Hollins in there for 13 whopping minutes to see if he could do anything.

Pretty sure the game wasn't lost because of Steamer or Hollins. Completely on the starters for thinking they could just go through the motions and win this game

Who cares if Steamer fouls out? Doc should use all his fouls. He gets them because he is playing hard. Things like protecting the rim and offensive rebounding can sometimes get you a cheap foul or two.

During the win streak, Steamer averaged about 22 minutes and 5 fouls a game. The kid was playing hard. Threads, on this site, talking about him being better than Perkins. Then bam!!! Ray comes back, Doc screws with the rotations, and we lose two in a row. During the two game losing streak, Steamers averaged 9 minutes. Coincidence? Maybe. We played two tough teams. But they were no tougher than Miami where Steamer played 24 minutes,in arguably, the Celtics biggest win of the year.

Agreed.

Re: Rebounding Frustration at its peak
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2012, 11:34:46 AM »

Offline theswitch

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This is a hard dilemma for me because our lack of rebounding is tied to our defensive prowess. I'm not trying to absolve our guys of blame for our troubles, because surely we can do better when we are actually in position. But, it's also a systematic error. If they run a 1-5 pick and roll, then KG has to step out until Rondo recovers. As KG's man rolls to the basket, Bass has to rotate over to help until KG recovers. One of two things seems to happen from this point: either KG recovers to the 4 (Bass' man) or the 5 (his man). If it's the former, then the 4 clearly has inside position on the recovering Kevin, and Bass has position on the center - which doesn't really do much because he's 6'8, but I'll give that a pass. If KG recovers to his own man, then Bass will also go back to his man when KG gets back. At this point, the 5 is inside of the recovering KG and the 4 is inside of the recovering Bass.

One example from last night was when KG was on Gibson, Hollins on Asik. Gibson ran a pick and roll with whoever was the ball-handler, I believe Watson. KG had to help on Watson until Bradley recovered and Hollins rotated to help on the rolling Gibson. A shot went up, and Asik had himself an uncontested offensive rebound because KG was still rotating back from the perimeter and Hollins was on Gibson. Hollins and KG instinctively come over to contest Asik, who misses a layup. Now nobody is on Gibson, who tries to slam it home but is fouled. You can't really blame anybody for either of those two offensive rebounds because everyone was just playing good defense, you can't expect them to be supermen.

My point is that if the offense causes our defense to rotate, it will nearly always leave us out of position. Obviously, KG and Bass can fight for position, but if a shot goes up, they're more or less screwed. Everybody can do a better job, from 1-5, but it's also a choice of either running the defense properly or getting into rebounding position, just like offensively Doc chooses to have our guys get back to set up the defense rather than crash the offensive boards and risk a fast break score the other way.

I'm not sure which choice is right because I'm not that great a defensive technician. Either way, the guys need to do a better job on the glass, there's no question about that. But sometimes you can just see it happen.
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Re: Rebounding Frustration at its peak
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2012, 12:11:06 PM »

Offline CelticG1

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Steamer came in, busted his butt fighting for rebounds, by himself, and then got benched for Ryan Hollins. Right before he was pulled, he snagged an offensive rebound between three defenders, got fouled on the put back, and made his two free throws. Now Steamer only got that rebound last night, but fought for many others in his 11 minutes.

So Doc goes with Hollins. Why?? The kid got almost 13 minutes and zero rebounds. He does nothing but dunk. I don't get it. So Doc can throw his team under the bus about effort but these are his rotations.

Last night Steamer comes in for KG. He has to try to rebound with Bass. Bass is a terrible rebounder. If you are playing along side that kid, you are going to be doing all the dirty work on your own. Now KG and Hollins, come in together and you got another bad rebounding combination.

Over the win streak, the best defensive and rebounding combination was KG and Steamer together. Why would Doc change this? My theory is KG went to Doc asking for his buddy to play. What a mistake.

Steamer is and was a fouling machine last night. You can't just ignore that. It's one game and Doc decided to throw Hollins in there for 13 whopping minutes to see if he could do anything.

Pretty sure the game wasn't lost because of Steamer or Hollins. Completely on the starters for thinking they could just go through the motions and win this game

Who cares if Steamer fouls out? Doc should use all his fouls. He gets them because he is playing hard. Things like protecting the rim and offensive rebounding can sometimes get you a cheap foul or two.

During the win streak, Steamer averaged about 22 minutes and 5 fouls a game. The kid was playing hard. Threads, on this site, talking about him being better than Perkins. Then bam!!! Ray comes back, Doc screws with the rotations, and we lose two in a row. During the two game losing streak, Steamers averaged 9 minutes. Coincidence? Maybe. We played two tough teams. But they were no tougher than Miami where Steamer played 24 minutes,in arguably, the Celtics biggest win of the year.

You just nitpick like crazy.

What would you be saying if Steamer played a whopping 8 minutes  more? Would you still think he should be playing more? What if he played 30?

It's just comical after some of these losses you just will find the most random thing to pick on. We probably lost to the Spurs cause Doc started Ray instead of Bradley. Then we lost to the Bulls cause Doc won't let Bradley be the 6th man.

I could understand if you were saying something a little legitimate but when you are getting all upset because Doc tried Hollins for a few extra minutes, in one game, over Steamer I just don't even know what to say.

Re: Rebounding Frustration at its peak
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2012, 12:15:48 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Garnett is slightly above average as a C rebounding this year. Pierce is about average for a SF. Rondo is above average as a PG.

Our issues are at PF (Bass is bad, and Stiesma/Hollins are bad at C when KG moves to PF) and SG (Bradley is a bad rebounder for SG as is Ray).

When you only have one really above average rebounding position (and its the least imporant one overall) you're going to be a bad rebounding team.

Re: Rebounding Frustration at its peak
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2012, 12:19:53 PM »

Offline theswitch

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Steamer came in, busted his butt fighting for rebounds, by himself, and then got benched for Ryan Hollins. Right before he was pulled, he snagged an offensive rebound between three defenders, got fouled on the put back, and made his two free throws. Now Steamer only got that rebound last night, but fought for many others in his 11 minutes.

So Doc goes with Hollins. Why?? The kid got almost 13 minutes and zero rebounds. He does nothing but dunk. I don't get it. So Doc can throw his team under the bus about effort but these are his rotations.

Last night Steamer comes in for KG. He has to try to rebound with Bass. Bass is a terrible rebounder. If you are playing along side that kid, you are going to be doing all the dirty work on your own. Now KG and Hollins, come in together and you got another bad rebounding combination.

Over the win streak, the best defensive and rebounding combination was KG and Steamer together. Why would Doc change this? My theory is KG went to Doc asking for his buddy to play. What a mistake.

Steamer is and was a fouling machine last night. You can't just ignore that. It's one game and Doc decided to throw Hollins in there for 13 whopping minutes to see if he could do anything.

Pretty sure the game wasn't lost because of Steamer or Hollins. Completely on the starters for thinking they could just go through the motions and win this game

Who cares if Steamer fouls out? Doc should use all his fouls. He gets them because he is playing hard. Things like protecting the rim and offensive rebounding can sometimes get you a cheap foul or two.

During the win streak, Steamer averaged about 22 minutes and 5 fouls a game. The kid was playing hard. Threads, on this site, talking about him being better than Perkins. Then bam!!! Ray comes back, Doc screws with the rotations, and we lose two in a row. During the two game losing streak, Steamers averaged 9 minutes. Coincidence? Maybe. We played two tough teams. But they were no tougher than Miami where Steamer played 24 minutes,in arguably, the Celtics biggest win of the year.

You just nitpick like crazy.

What would you be saying if Steamer played a whopping 8 minutes  more? Would you still think he should be playing more? What if he played 30?

It's just comical after some of these losses you just will find the most random thing to pick on. We probably lost to the Spurs cause Doc started Ray instead of Bradley. Then we lost to the Bulls cause Doc won't let Bradley be the 6th man.

I could understand if you were saying something a little legitimate but when you are getting all upset because Doc tried Hollins for a few extra minutes, in one game, over Steamer I just don't even know what to say.

The fact that a Stiemsma v. Hollins debate exists is humorous to me.
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Re: Rebounding Frustration at its peak
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2012, 12:30:05 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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As "The Swith" said previously, a large part of our rebounding woes are systemic.  It's difficult to be in good rebounding position when your defense is constantly rotating to help.

Despite that, we should do better.  The problem is KG is the only front court player who is a good rebounder.  Bass had 5 rebounds in 34 minutes.  Steimsma and Hollins had 1 combined rebound in 24 combined minutes.  That's terrible.

Another problem is long rebounds.  Our guards need to do a better job of staying in front of their man and battling for loose balls.  Long rebounds are the worst, they tend to lead to uncontested three points attempts.

The C's will never be a great rebounding team as currently constitued, but they should be better than they are on nights like these.  They need to make a concerted effort though, and it seems that effort is far too often lacking.

Re: Rebounding Frustration at its peak
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2012, 12:32:44 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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This is a hard dilemma for me because our lack of rebounding is tied to our defensive prowess. I'm not trying to absolve our guys of blame for our troubles, because surely we can do better when we are actually in position. But, it's also a systematic error.

The rebounding is a problem, but the Celtics don't need to be an above-average or even an average rebounding team.  The Spurs are only 23rd or so in rebounding and if the Celtics were at that level, they'd probably be playing good enough that some people around here would see the team as a favorite against the Bulls and/or Heat rather than an underdog squad with a puncher's chance of upsetting one of those teams.

Of course, there's a reason why the Celtics are 19-3 in the Big Three era when Rondo has 10+ rebounds and 17-17 when he has 20+ points.
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Re: Rebounding Frustration at its peak
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2012, 12:55:54 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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A couple of the comments above are pretty borderline in terms of respecting the opinion of others.  Please calm down, and debate without making things personal.


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Re: Rebounding Frustration at its peak
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2012, 01:14:11 PM »

Offline Assassin70

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We need to hope we at least get the rebounds we really needs come playoff time.

We can talk about it all we want but without a whole roster shake up (which can't happen right now).  I doubt we will see any major improvements.
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Re: Rebounding Frustration at its peak
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2012, 02:03:50 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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I do feel its tuff for KG , he can't do everything by himself.  He must feel extremely frustrated.

Greg does good for his skill level and abilities.  

One of my favorite matchups is Noah vs Varejao.  

Much as I like Doc's kid Austin and he'll be a good player, we really really need better speed &size on the front line.

Jeff Green is not an enforcer or great rebounder either.

I 'd trade Bradley and JJ , and Dooling, picks whatever  for Anderson Varejao .  He is exactly what this team needs. Unending energy, speed , and Athletic ability out the Wazoo.  

  
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 02:25:41 PM by SHAQATTACK »

Re: Rebounding Frustration at its peak
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2012, 02:45:01 PM »

Offline thestackshow

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This is the song that plays in my head when I watch this celtics team try to get a rebound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK6TXMsvgQg
[img width= height=]http://oi43.tinypic.com/2afde6p.jpg[/img]

Re: Rebounding Frustration at its peak
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2012, 02:49:59 PM »

Offline paintitgreen

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I do feel its tuff for KG , he can't do everything by himself.  He must feel extremely frustrated.

Greg does good for his skill level and abilities.  

One of my favorite matchups is Noah Vs Varejao.  

Much as I like Doc's kid Austin and he'll be a good player, we really really need better speed &size on the front line.

Jeff Green is not an enforcer or great rebounder either.

I 'd trade Bradley and JJ , and Dooling, picks whatever  for Anderson Varejao .  He is exactly what this team needs. Unending energy, speed , and Athletic ability out the Wazoo.  

I like the thinking, and I thought Varejao would've been a great target last summer or during the season to add a piece to this year's group. But Varejao will be 30 at the start of next season and missed over 50 games last year and 25 this year (plus much of the 2010 playoffs) with injuries. If Boston is blowing up to some extent, I don't think getting him helps the rebuilding process. He's paid $8.3 mil next year, $9 in 2013-14, and is on the books for $9.7 in 2014-15, with $4 mil of that guaranteed. He also has a 5% trade kicker, so for Boston it'd be $8.8, $9.5 and $10.2. I'd be happy to take that contract on. But to give up assets for it when he's an expensive guy who may not be healthy enough to contribute and/or may not come back from these injuries the same player?

Keep in mind that it's not just the actual assets (say Bradley and Johnson) that Boston would be giving up, it's the rights to some combination of free agents like KG, Allen, Green and Bass (at least two of those four) since the Celtics will need to use cap space to add the salary if they only have JJ and AB to trade.

That's why I would've loved something like Jermaine's contract, Jajuan Johnson and one of the first rounders for Varejao so you could have Varejao for this playoff run. But moving forward? He's too old with too much injury history to be part of a rebuilding plan.

A trade might still make sense under some circumstances, if they're able to keep this group together for another go round while preserving their young pieces.

1. If Bass takes his player option, then Bass, Johnson, Bradley and Moore for Varejao would work financially. I'm fine with Bass, Johnson and Moore, but Bradley? A legit NBA rotation player who's only 21 is a lot to give up on when you're already giving a 27 year old 12 and 6 power forward and a first round pick from last year with size for a 30 year old defensive center with several nagging injury issues who's making $28.5 mil for the next 3 years or $22.5 for the next 2. You would retain all your free agent rights, and maybe they can pick up a combo guard in the draft and keep Pietrus so Bradley is a bit more expendable, but I actually don't think I'd make this trade.

2. If the Celtics get some wing depth in the draft, a sign and trade of Jeff Green might make some sense if Cleveland gets another big in the draft and wants to make a run at a free agent big plus add a wing like Green. They'd have to want to make a run at somebody else, because they could just sign Green outright if they want him. The Cavs' salary for next year is at about $34-38 million depending on whether they waive Boobie Gibson and where their draft pick ends up being. So they can afford Green to start on the wing, where they're weak. But if they still want space to go after a restricted free agent, they could preserve the space they have and add, say, $1 mil in cap space by trading Varejao for Green. If the Celtics draft a 3, I'm fine with that. They'd preserve their rights to KG, Allen and Bass, wouldn't lose the youth, and would have the luxury of using some of the midlevel to try to bring back Pietrus. So you keep this year's team together (the starting five, Bradley, Pietrus and Stiemsma), plus Johnson, and add Varejao and the draft picks. That I like. Provided you keep some depth at the 3 with a first round pick and Pietrus, Green becomes expendable.
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Re: Rebounding Frustration at its peak
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2012, 04:28:59 PM »

Offline OmarSekou

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We don't have anyone who can rebound in traffic, except for Rondo. He gets serious about rebounding once every 4 games or so. So when we are out of position, we get beat to jump balls. Paul's not bad but he gets outhustled at times. KG's not bad, but he gets outmuscled at times. Ray and Bradley aren't that involved.

Hollins has the quickness to get in position, but he doesn't seem strong enough. Bass and Steam are a bit slow footed and stiff.
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Re: Rebounding Frustration at its peak
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2012, 05:39:23 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Hollins is a tall dud from what I have seen.  Strange thing is he is athletic so it has to be his hands or a mental thing.