Greg Stiemsma's Potential = Perk or Better?

[Roy H.]

The Celtics of 07-10 could have used any big in the league 6'11 and taller and 250 plus, and would have been just as successful..

Yeah, that's obviously not true.  I think you underestimate how hard it is to average 10 points, 8 rebounds, 60% shooting and 2 blocks in the NBA while playing excellent defense.

Since the 2008 season, guess how many players have had a season where they averaged at least 9.5 points, 7.5 rebounds, 1.5 blocks, and 60% shooting while playing in at least 40 games? 

Two.  Dwight Howard and Kendrick Perkins.   

What i meant was... If you put any other big in the league in Perkins' place... they would have been just as successful.. Meaning, a lot of Perkins' success had to do with the fact he was on the Celtics.

You think if Tyson Chandler were on this team from 07-10 he wouldn't have done as well as Perkins?  Tyson Chandler would have averaged a double double on this team with 2 blocks a game on 60% shooting.

So, if you add a near-max center to the team in place of Perk, he could have slightly exceeded Perk's production?  Fantastic. 

(By the way, Chandler has never averaged 2 blocks per game in his career, and he's only averaged a double-double once.)

[myteamisbetterthanyours]

The Celtics of 07-10 could have used any big in the league 6'11 and taller and 250 plus, and would have been just as successful..

Yeah, that's obviously not true.  I think you underestimate how hard it is to average 10 points, 8 rebounds, 60% shooting and 2 blocks in the NBA while playing excellent defense.

Since the 2008 season, guess how many players have had a season where they averaged at least 9.5 points, 7.5 rebounds, 1.5 blocks, and 60% shooting while playing in at least 40 games? 

Two.  Dwight Howard and Kendrick Perkins.   

What i meant was... If you put any other big in the league in Perkins' place... they would have been just as successful.. Meaning, a lot of Perkins' success had to do with the fact he was on the Celtics.

You think if Tyson Chandler were on this team from 07-10 he wouldn't have done as well as Perkins?  Tyson Chandler would have averaged a double double on this team with 2 blocks a game on 60% shooting.

So, if you add a near-max center to the team in place of Perk, he could have slightly exceeded Perk's production?  Fantastic. 

(By the way, Chandler has never averaged 2 blocks per game in his career, and he's only averaged a double-double once.)

He's averaging a double double now with 1.5 blocks a game on a team that doesn't play defense. 

You're right though, you can't compare Perkins' to Chandler because Perkins' sucks and isn't in the same league as him.

The fact that Danny Ainge was willing to trade Perkins on the basis that a 38 y.o. injury prone Shaq was a better fit, speaks volumes to how much you guys are overvaluing Kendrick Perkins....

[Fafnir]

The Celtics of 07-10 could have used any big in the league 6'11 and taller and 250 plus, and would have been just as successful..

Yeah, that's obviously not true.  I think you underestimate how hard it is to average 10 points, 8 rebounds, 60% shooting and 2 blocks in the NBA while playing excellent defense.

Since the 2008 season, guess how many players have had a season where they averaged at least 9.5 points, 7.5 rebounds, 1.5 blocks, and 60% shooting while playing in at least 40 games?  

Two.  Dwight Howard and Kendrick Perkins.    

What i meant was... If you put any other big in the league in Perkins' place... they would have been just as successful.. Meaning, a lot of Perkins' success had to do with the fact he was on the Celtics.

You think if Tyson Chandler were on this team from 07-10 he wouldn't have done as well as Perkins?  Tyson Chandler would have averaged a double double on this team with 2 blocks a game on 60% shooting.

So, if you add a near-max center to the team in place of Perk, he could have slightly exceeded Perk's production?  Fantastic.  

(By the way, Chandler has never averaged 2 blocks per game in his career, and he's only averaged a double-double once.)

He's averaging a double double now

I think this is your biggest problem, you look at Perkins play now and assume it is how he played with the C's. That isn't the case, especially pre-knee issues.

[alajet]

The Celtics of 07-10 could have used any big in the league 6'11 and taller and 250 plus, and would have been just as successful..

Yeah, that's obviously not true.  I think you underestimate how hard it is to average 10 points, 8 rebounds, 60% shooting and 2 blocks in the NBA while playing excellent defense.

Since the 2008 season, guess how many players have had a season where they averaged at least 9.5 points, 7.5 rebounds, 1.5 blocks, and 60% shooting while playing in at least 40 games? 

Two.  Dwight Howard and Kendrick Perkins.   

What i meant was... If you put any other big in the league in Perkins' place... they would have been just as successful.. Meaning, a lot of Perkins' success had to do with the fact he was on the Celtics.

You think if Tyson Chandler were on this team from 07-10 he wouldn't have done as well as Perkins?  Tyson Chandler would have averaged a double double on this team with 2 blocks a game on 60% shooting.

So, if you add a near-max center to the team in place of Perk, he could have slightly exceeded Perk's production?  Fantastic. 

(By the way, Chandler has never averaged 2 blocks per game in his career, and he's only averaged a double-double once.)

He's averaging a double double now with 1.5 blocks a game on a team that doesn't play defense. 

You're right though, you can't compare Perkins' to Chandler because Perkins' sucks and isn't in the same league as him.

The fact that Danny Ainge was willing to trade Perkins on the basis that a 38 y.o. injury prone Shaq was a better fit, speaks volumes to how much you guys are overvaluing Kendrick Perkins....

Just for clarification, NYK has the fourth-best defensive rating in the NBA right now. Not bad for a team that doesn't play defense, huh?

[Fafnir]

Just for clarification, NYK has the fourth-best defensive rating in the NBA right now. Not bad for a team that doesn't play defense, huh?

Yeah since Chandler has arrived they've played solid to excellent defense. Not playing Amar'e at center does wonderful things for your defense.

[Celtics18]

I think when comparing the two players, it makes the most sense to look at how good they are now and how good we think they'll be in the future.

Other than for nostalgia's sake, what Perk did or didn't do for us from 2007 to 2010 is hardly relevant to the discussion.  

I honestly root for Perk to get past the injury issues that have plagued him recently.  If he can't do that, then Stiemsma can easily become a better player.

[myteamisbetterthanyours]

The Celtics of 07-10 could have used any big in the league 6'11 and taller and 250 plus, and would have been just as successful..

Yeah, that's obviously not true.  I think you underestimate how hard it is to average 10 points, 8 rebounds, 60% shooting and 2 blocks in the NBA while playing excellent defense.

Since the 2008 season, guess how many players have had a season where they averaged at least 9.5 points, 7.5 rebounds, 1.5 blocks, and 60% shooting while playing in at least 40 games?  

Two.  Dwight Howard and Kendrick Perkins.    

What i meant was... If you put any other big in the league in Perkins' place... they would have been just as successful.. Meaning, a lot of Perkins' success had to do with the fact he was on the Celtics.

You think if Tyson Chandler were on this team from 07-10 he wouldn't have done as well as Perkins?  Tyson Chandler would have averaged a double double on this team with 2 blocks a game on 60% shooting.

So, if you add a near-max center to the team in place of Perk, he could have slightly exceeded Perk's production?  Fantastic.  

(By the way, Chandler has never averaged 2 blocks per game in his career, and he's only averaged a double-double once.)

He's averaging a double double now

I think this is your biggest problem, you look at Perkins play now and assume it is how he played with the C's in the past was the same its not.

Not exactly, I've always been critical of Perkins, even since he was here.  I felt he was too slow, too stiff, not skilled enough offensively.  Don't get me wrong though, I LOVED his defense.  I was actually against the OKC trade at first, but then I thought about it.. Shaq really came in and looked INCREDIBLE on this team...

Perkins always had trouble finishing down low and always seemed hesitant on offense.. He would fumble passes, i was just frustrated him.. Then I saw how J.O. came in and played some really good defense for us when he was healthy, and thought, hey maybe Perkins is replacable.  Maybe the need for his defense is overrated.. Which it is, because we now have KG playing center, and our defense looks like it hasn't lost a step.

Then his play this year solidified it for me.  His injury has become too much for him to overcome and he sucks now.  I LOVED Perk when he was here, but I came to realize we never really needed him in the first place.

[Fafnir]

I think when comparing the two players, it makes the most sense to look at how good they are now and how good we think they'll be in the future.

When you're comparing potential no it doesn't.

If you're saying which you'd rather have now, which this thread isn't, then your logic makes sense.

Even then there is a big difference in playing 15-20 minutes as a backup and being a starter. Especially given Greg's inability to avoid fouling 7 times per 36 minutes.

[alajet]

Perk is one of the tougher guys in the NBA to play against in terms of strength. Yeah, he can't hit a 15-footer, but so be it. Hasheem Thabeet can hit those, as he showed it in college, so we can claim that he's better than Perk as well under this logic.
(Just joking. As far as I've been a fan of his, Hasheem has been tentative even while just walking on the court. That's another matter to discuss, though.)

Injuries shouldn't be taken into account while discussing about a player's peak performance and Perk simply outclasses Stiemsma with his defense alone.
Let's have Stiemsma defending Howard 1-on-1 without getting into foul trouble and then re-evaluate this topic.

On another note, I'm not saying Perk is all-star caliber or something, but could be a starter when healthy, while Stiemsma will never be anything more than a 2nd string center.

[myteamisbetterthanyours]

I think when comparing the two players, it makes the most sense to look at how good they are now and how good we think they'll be in the future.

When you're comparing potential no it doesn't.

If you're saying which you'd rather have now, which this thread isn't, then your logic makes sense.

Even then there is a big difference in playing 15-20 minutes as a backup and being a starter. Especially given Greg's inability to avoid fouling 7 times per 36 minutes.

Greg gets a lot of bad rookie calls tho.. I would assume as he becomes more experienced that number will go down

But honestly, I think Greg is better overall.. more skilled than Perkins offensively.  Defensively he's more mobile and moves his feet quicker.  He's just as long, and hes an elite shot blocker.  5.something blocks per 48 is crazy.. Imagine if he didn't get those rookie calls, that number would probably be higher..

[Fafnir]

Most of the rookie calls are really rookie level mistakes by Greg.

[myteamisbetterthanyours]

Most of the rookie calls are really rookie level mistakes by Greg.

True.  Which theoretically should improve with more experience...

In comparison, Perkin's third year, (the first he's averaged more than 10 minutes a game {Greg avg's 13 a game this year}), his fouls per 48 was 6.5.. and its decreased since then.

Greg should see the same trend.

[alajet]

Problem is when you are playing a relatively small sample of minutes, you can look great with that Per 48 numbers. I know it may not be that way, but still, there are always examples of this situation out there.
For instance, this season's steals leader is Sundiata Gaines per 48. I don't think you would think about it at first glance.
By the way, Greg is 16th in the same list, so, actually both of his per 48 stats look wonderful.

[myteamisbetterthanyours]

Perkins' rookie year, it was something around 8.. Gregs is around 9 this year..

[Roy H.]

Most of the rookie calls are really rookie level mistakes by Greg.

True.  Which theoretically should improve with more experience...

In comparison, Perkin's third year, (the first he's averaged more than 10 minutes a game {Greg avg's 13 a game this year}), his fouls per 48 was 6.5.. and its decreased since then.

Greg should see the same trend.

One of the big differences between a third year Perk vs. a rookie Stiemsma is that Perk was a 21 year old kid, whereas Stiemsma is 26 years old and went to college for four years, followed by multiple years of professional experience.