Author Topic: Why are the Celtics one of the worst teams at boxing out?  (Read 7080 times)

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Re: Why are the Celtics one of the worst teams at boxing out?
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2012, 07:28:15 AM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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Anybody here has season tickets where the seats are behind the court. Could you please make a big BOX OUT sign and put it up for them to see when they run/walk back on defense. It'll really help, i tried it once and it helped my school's basketball team. I personally thank you in advance.
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Re: Why are the Celtics one of the worst teams at boxing out?
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2012, 07:57:46 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Some of it I am afraid to say is laziness and lack of proper mindset.  Yeah they are old but an old guy can still lay booty on you and box you out.   See Kurt Thomas for reference.

Re: Why are the Celtics one of the worst teams at boxing out?
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2012, 08:17:50 AM »

Offline pjbigshow

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Dear Doc,

Please hire Dennis Rodman to TEACH these guys how to box out... He was 6'6" and led the league in rebounding for years. How do we keep losing games because of one simple fundamental tool that I learned in the 3rd grade?

Thank you that is all.

P.S. Austin looked good last night

Best wishes,

Entire Boston Fan base
I have 17 reasons why my team is better than yours...

Re: Why are the Celtics one of the worst teams at boxing out?
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2012, 08:38:02 AM »

Offline Eja117

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Dear Doc,

Please hire Dennis Rodman to TEACH these guys how to box out... He was 6'6" and led the league in rebounding for years. How do we keep losing games because of one simple fundamental tool that I learned in the 3rd grade?

Thank you that is all.

P.S. Austin looked good last night

Best wishes,

Entire Boston Fan base
hire Rodman? Let's not go crazy now

Re: Why are the Celtics one of the worst teams at boxing out?
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2012, 08:38:33 AM »

Offline Eja117

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Its because the guys are old, they put in effort on offense, and man to man defending but don't have enough energy left over to box out.
I always felt like boxing out saved energy

Re: Why are the Celtics one of the worst teams at boxing out?
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2012, 09:08:04 AM »

Offline Greenbean

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Because our players are lazy and stupid - show that Auerbach/Russell video to them until they can't stand it any longer, then like Clockwork Orange, stick toothpicks on their eyelids so that have to watch it 24 hrs a day round the clock even if they sleep......

Its been a problem for years and Tommy talking about the rotating D is just trying to cover up for our LAZY AND STUPID players.....

What is happening to this place...

Re: Why are the Celtics one of the worst teams at boxing out?
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2012, 09:08:58 AM »

Offline CelticG1

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One thing, and I'm sure some people won't by it, is that our defense is constantly helping and constantly on a string.

We play great defense because of this but leaves us vulnerable to give up offensive rebounds. KG is always helping, JO is stepling up taking charges, and it doesnt help that Rondo gambles a ton and Ray has trouble keeping his man in front of him. Didnt we do a better job limiting offensive rebounds when AB was starting?

I think they could concentrate on d rebounds more but maybe will give up a higher fg % to the otther team and doc would rather take his chances that we can get enough d rebounds.

Other great defensive teams probably dont have as much trouble because they have very young mobile bids to get the rebounds.

Re: Why are the Celtics one of the worst teams at boxing out?
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2012, 09:09:40 AM »

Offline Eja117

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Because our players are lazy and stupid - show that Auerbach/Russell video to them until they can't stand it any longer, then like Clockwork Orange, stick toothpicks on their eyelids so that have to watch it 24 hrs a day round the clock even if they sleep......

Its been a problem for years and Tommy talking about the rotating D is just trying to cover up for our LAZY AND STUPID players.....
I want to be the guy with the eye drops

Re: Why are the Celtics one of the worst teams at boxing out?
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2012, 09:11:11 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Dear Doc,

Please hire Dennis Rodman to TEACH these guys how to box out... He was 6'6" and led the league in rebounding for years. How do we keep losing games because of one simple fundamental tool that I learned in the 3rd grade?

Thank you that is all.

P.S. Austin looked good last night

Best wishes,

Entire Boston Fan base

  Rodman didn't win rebounding titles because he was great at boxing out. More the opposite, in fact. He'd ignore whatever his responsibility should be and just run to where he thought the ball was going to end up.

Re: Why are the Celtics one of the worst teams at boxing out?
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2012, 09:52:08 AM »

Offline TripleOT

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The Lakers play good help defense and  their bigs seem to  box out OK.

The reason the Cs don't box out is that their star big doesn't believe in it, and the rest of the  team seems to  follow suit.   KG was always an altitude rebounder who could just sky for boards, and now that he can't sky as high, gets beat for rebounds. JO was never a big time rebounder, even in his prime, and he was more of a leaper than boxing out type.

Bass is undersized and Wilcox is inconsistent.  None of the bigs are widebodies.

I do know that it's frustrating as a fan to watch the Cs get big stops and then just let the other team lay in easy putbacks.  When I watch close games, I pray for a turnover or steal,  because I have no faith that the Cs will clear their glass. 

Re: Why are the Celtics one of the worst teams at boxing out?
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2012, 10:08:08 AM »

Offline CelticG1

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The Lakers play good help defense and  their bigs seem to  box out OK.

The reason the Cs don't box out is that their star big doesn't believe in it, and the rest of the  team seems to  follow suit.   KG was always an altitude rebounder who could just sky for boards, and now that he can't sky as high, gets beat for rebounds. JO was never a big time rebounder, even in his prime, and he was more of a leaper than boxing out type.

Bass is undersized and Wilcox is inconsistent.  None of the bigs are widebodies.

I do know that it's frustrating as a fan to watch the Cs get big stops and then just let the other team lay in easy putbacks.  When I watch close games, I pray for a turnover or steal,  because I have no faith that the Cs will clear their glass. 

A. They dont play good help d.
B. We are a jump shooting team
C.we arent a good offensive rebounding team

If we are just talking about the lakers (which you are the one that mentioned) they also happen to have two of the best offensive rebounders in the game. You think theses offensive rebound numbers were a rarity for them last night? Well they weren't

Re: Why are the Celtics one of the worst teams at boxing out?
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2012, 10:11:09 AM »

Offline Marcus13

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Because Doc doesn't believe it's important. 

We've had COUNTLESS frontcourt players on our roster throughout the last four years...and every single year we've sucked at rebounding the ball.  That's a gameplanning issue

Re: Why are the Celtics one of the worst teams at boxing out?
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2012, 11:53:24 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Yep, we worry more about D than boards.   But we have to scheme for second chance shots better.

Re: Why are the Celtics one of the worst teams at boxing out?
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2012, 12:01:15 PM »

Offline TheTruthFot18

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1) Lack of fundamentals - JO and KG were leapers when they came into the league.

2) Undersized - JO, KG, Wilcox and Bass are all undersized bigs.

3) Defensive Rotations - C's pick and roll defense often draws their bigs out to the perimeter and then fall off to deny the roll.  This allows the offensive player to get position underneath.   

2. Undersized compared to who? shaq and yao?
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Re: Why are the Celtics one of the worst teams at boxing out?
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2012, 03:09:43 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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It partly has to do with defensive/offensive philosophy.  On offense, after the shot goes up, Doc generally wants them running back on defense to prevent transition breaks.   Boxing out try for offensive boards leaves you on the wrong side of your man if the miss caroms into their hands.  Statistically, it will go into their hands almost 3/4 of the time anyway.

Percentages show that we have a better chance of getting the ball back from when it leaves our hands on the shot by getting back on defense, forcing a low percentage shot and then grabbing the _defensive_ rebound.

So that explains the lack of emphasis on offensive rebounds.   On the defensive side, we are definitely supposed to be doing a better job.   You have to be careful how you measure these things, though.  If we force a team to take a lot of poor, low-percentage shots, then they naturally will have higher ORB counts - but it may not result in as large a rise in DRBs.  The reason is you can have multiple ORBs per possession but only one DRB.   Note also that giving up one or more ORBs on a possession is no guarantee they will score on that possession, but grabbing the DRB will guarantee that they wont.

What all that boils down to is that rebound counts are a suspect way to try to measure how well a team is rebounding.  About the only measure I believe is useful is DRB% - which is the percentage of Defensive Rebound opportunities that you grab.  All teams prioritize grabbing these, no matter what their defensive philosophy is and they have a distinct absolute game value (they stop a possession with zero points).

Here is an article I wrote a couple of years ago discussing how this Celtic team approaches rebounds.  The numbers are a bit dated (they are for that year) but the concepts still apply to Doc (& Tom Thibodeau's) thinking:

http://www.celticsblog.com/2010/3/11/1368765/understanding-rebounds-and-the


As of the moment, the Celtics are ranked 20th in DRB%.  That sounds bad, but you have to understand that teams are very closely bunched.   The C's pull down 73.2% of Defensive Rebound opportunities.  The league average is barely above that at 73.5%.   The Lakers, with their twin towers, are barely above that, at 73.7% (16th).

Orlando, as is typical since they got Dwight, is #1 in DRB%, grabbing 76.2%.  The Wizards are the worst at 69.2%.

In real terms if you make a team miss 60 shots, then the difference between the Magic and league-worst Wizards is that the Magic would grab 7 additional rebounds on defense.

So basically, right now, we are an 'average' rebounding team.  I would like to see us get that number up to at least 75%.  That would get us into the top 10 in DRB%.

I believe a lot of our rebounding problems are indeed due to lack of boxing out.  Contrary to complaints, I believe JO is almost the only guy on the team who consistently boxes out well.   Bass, Wilcox and, yes KG even, all tend to rely on their athleticism.   For KG this still usually works.  He's grabbing a very healthy 23.5% of DRBs.  Some of that, he's been the beneficiary of JO's boxing out.

The good news is that this is something that can be coached and corrected.  The bad news is we don't get many practice days in this schedule.

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