Early Season Lesson: Rondo Can't Carry a Team

[GreenFaith1819]

I really like Rondo. I just wish he wouldn't so obviously take nights off as he did last night.

And I really like Rondo too!  I think it's ridiculous that I'm supposedly "clearly not a fan" of Rondo if I don't believe he's the sort of player around whom you build a team.  I don't believe he's the sort of player who can be your leader, your go-to-guy, if you want to be a really good team.  

Does that mean I don't really appreciate the things that he can do really well?  Of course not.  Rondo is capable of being incredibly dominant in short stretches -- sometimes even for a few games at a time.  But that's as far as it goes.  There's nothing wrong with that!  He's not an MVP, or a superstar, but he's still unquestionably an All-Star.

I just think it's important, especially since we're about to enter a rebuilding period, where these sorts of things are going to have a major impact on the team's progress in climbing back to contention, to have a realistic, practical sense of exactly how valuable our players are and what sorts of roles we can expect them to play.

Some of us have a different opinion than you, that's all.  I think some of us have shown a history of backing up our opinions of Rondo with substantial evidence.  You don't have to agree.  That's what this is all about; discussions.

You do seem to have this misguided notion that your opinion is the only one that has any validity or that it shows some kind of indisputable objective fact even when your "objective facts" are disputed.  

Funny, from my perspective that seems to be the way most Rondo supporters operate.

I guess it just proves that you can't really convince somebody of something they don't already believe.

Part of it is that staunch Rondo supporters take quick offense if anybody suggests that Rondo isn't just plain great.

But - who on this team right now is great? Besides Rondo?

[Drucci]

Too early to tell. Is it Rondo's fault if his teammates can't hit open jumpshots? He can do a lot of things to carry his team but he can't do it all and make up for his teammates' poor level of play.

[Celtics18]

Playoff series in which Rajon Rondo has been the best player for either team:

2009, 1st round vs. Chicago.

2010, 1st round vs. Miami.

2010, 2nd round vs. Cleveland.

2011, 1st round vs. New York. 

Each of those teams (except maybe New York) has a player that most would consider an elite franchise level player.  Yet, they were beaten by Rondo's Celtics.

2009 vs. Chicago -- Celtics had better talent at pretty much every spot other than starting PF.

2010 vs. Miami -- ditto, except it was SG were Miami had the one advantage

2010 vs. Cleveland -- Rondo was clearly the best player in the series; this is the one time when Rondo has played for multiple games like an absolute superstar.  Even so, the Celtics were also a much more talented team except at SF.

2011 vs. New York -- New York had no depth at all, were incredibly weak at center, Chauncey was injured for most of the series, Amare was significantly limited.

Make all the excuses you want for the opposition, but those teams all had "transcendent" superstars, and that Cavs team and the Heat team from '09-'10 had top five defenses, the kinds of defenses that supposedly can shut the Celtics down by forcing them to play 4 on 5 because of Rondo's lack of outside shooting.    

I'd say that in '09-'10 Rondo came as close to "carrying" the Celtics to within a couple of plays of the NBA title as is possible.

Rondo hasn't been perfect, but give me any NBA superstar, and I'll be able to point to big playoff moments where they've struggled and come up short.  

[cman88]

I disagree with the OP. Rondo can carry a team, but it has to be a team that is capable of being carried if you get what I mean. Rondo is not a volume scorer and will never be one, but he is a player that can make life easier for teammates. What he needs to flourish are athletic players that can score in bunches and crash the boards for quick outlet passes that spur fast breaks. Think about the dread I say showtime Lakers with Magic at the point and Jamer Worthy Byron Scott Michael Cooper on the wings...

So he can carry a team, he just needs a team with a top scorer or two to carry the load offensively . . . .

hey Pos, Derrick Rose couldnt carry the bulls...they needed to bring in Boozer/now hamilton to help take the offensive load off him.

we saw how they were decimated in the playoffs because he couldnt "carry the team"

we get it, you dont like Rondo...but this argument that you are  right because hes "not carrying the team" is flawed..because NO one player can carry a team.

I doubt Derrick rose could carry this celtics squad the way it is right now.

if anything, this year proves that Rondo can be a scorer, but he needs help..maybe a couple other guys who can score as well..and thats something every good player would need.

[Celtics18]

I really like Rondo. I just wish he wouldn't so obviously take nights off as he did last night.

And I really like Rondo too!  I think it's ridiculous that I'm supposedly "clearly not a fan" of Rondo if I don't believe he's the sort of player around whom you build a team.  I don't believe he's the sort of player who can be your leader, your go-to-guy, if you want to be a really good team.  

Does that mean I don't really appreciate the things that he can do really well?  Of course not.  Rondo is capable of being incredibly dominant in short stretches -- sometimes even for a few games at a time.  But that's as far as it goes.  There's nothing wrong with that!  He's not an MVP, or a superstar, but he's still unquestionably an All-Star.

I just think it's important, especially since we're about to enter a rebuilding period, where these sorts of things are going to have a major impact on the team's progress in climbing back to contention, to have a realistic, practical sense of exactly how valuable our players are and what sorts of roles we can expect them to play.

Some of us have a different opinion than you, that's all.  I think some of us have shown a history of backing up our opinions of Rondo with substantial evidence.  You don't have to agree.  That's what this is all about; discussions.

You do seem to have this misguided notion that your opinion is the only one that has any validity or that it shows some kind of indisputable objective fact even when your "objective facts" are disputed.  

Funny, from my perspective that seems to be the way most Rondo supporters operate.

I guess it just proves that you can't really convince somebody of something they don't already believe.

Part of it is that staunch Rondo supporters take quick offense if anybody suggests that Rondo isn't just plain great.

I don't take offense, I just continue to argue my position.  Your post with all the exclamation points and defensive language seemed to me to be one written by someone who was taking offense.

[Ogaju]

maybe I misunderstood yoru post and addressed the wrong point. The point I addressed is whether or not Rondo can carry a team, this to me means being a leader of men, and also the type of player that will attract free agents to join the team. He can fulfill that role on this team, but if you mean carry a team by scoring loads of points, then NO.

What Rondo brings in leadership is not scoring but making other players better with his passing, hustle, steals, rebounds, and being a coach on the court.

[GreenFaith1819]

Look...the way the team is playing right now?

Chris Paul couldn't carry The Boston Celtics.

Chris Paul is showing me that even HE can't carry the Clips. After what I saw last night? There is NO WAY that the Clips are beating The Los Angeles Lakers in a seven game series.

No way. And that is with supposedly the "best" PG out there.

Now mind you - I'm optimistic that the team will turn it around, but I think it's unfair to state that Rondo can't carry a team the way it is playing right now.

Not his fault.

[KCattheStripe]

There's maybe 10 players in the league that can carry a team.


Rondo can't carry a team but he can  be a 1b type player on a championship team

Rondo-Harden-Deng-Smoove-Gasol

I think it's safe to say right now Rondo is the best player on that team (Harden probably passes him in a  couple years, but for now) and it could make a deep run in the playoffs

KG in his prime was easily a top-5 player, but by your definition he 'couldn't carry a team'.

what?

LBJ 'couldn't carry' a bad team either.  No single NBA player I've seen has been able to do so.

Hakeem Olajuwon thinks you're adorable.

Kenny Smith, Vernon Maxwell, Robert Horry and Otis Thorpe are insulted.

They can be as insulted as they want, but at that point in their careers they weren't better than  Shaq, Varejo, Antwan Jamison, Anthony Parker, Delonte.

  Throw in Mario Elie and Sam Cassell, and I'd say they were.

People forget that Kenny, Otis and Vernon were over the hill by that point ( in both championship seasons Vernon shot under 40%) and Cassell was a rookie on that first team.

  I wasn't a big Maxwell fan, but they were in the 28-31 age range, which is pretty much the prime years for a player.

Kenny had had two knee surgeries and both otis and Vernon were average players that year.

[CelticsFanNC]

   It's called a team because on the best ones no one is required to carry it.  We as Celtic fans should above all others know this.

  Nate Archibald had the greatest statistical season a PG has ever had in NBA history and if memory serves me right they didn't even make the playoffs.  

  Rondo had dominated entire playoff series' and that is good enough for me.

Carrying a team is way over rated.

[PosImpos]

I really like Rondo. I just wish he wouldn't so obviously take nights off as he did last night.

And I really like Rondo too!  I think it's ridiculous that I'm supposedly "clearly not a fan" of Rondo if I don't believe he's the sort of player around whom you build a team.  I don't believe he's the sort of player who can be your leader, your go-to-guy, if you want to be a really good team. 

Does that mean I don't really appreciate the things that he can do really well?  Of course not.  Rondo is capable of being incredibly dominant in short stretches -- sometimes even for a few games at a time.  But that's as far as it goes.  There's nothing wrong with that!  He's not an MVP, or a superstar, but he's still unquestionably an All-Star.

I just think it's important, especially since we're about to enter a rebuilding period, where these sorts of things are going to have a major impact on the team's progress in climbing back to contention, to have a realistic, practical sense of exactly how valuable our players are and what sorts of roles we can expect them to play.

Some of us have a different opinion than you, that's all.  I think some of us have shown a history of backing up our opinions of Rondo with substantial evidence.  You don't have to agree.  That's what this is all about; discussions.

You do seem to have this misguided notion that your opinion is the only one that has any validity or that it shows some kind of indisputable objective fact even when your "objective facts" are disputed. 

Funny, from my perspective that seems to be the way most Rondo supporters operate.

I guess it just proves that you can't really convince somebody of something they don't already believe.

Part of it is that staunch Rondo supporters take quick offense if anybody suggests that Rondo isn't just plain great.

I don't take offense, I just continue to argue my position.  Your post with all the exclamation points and defensive language seemed to me to be one written by someone who was taking offense.

No, not taking offense at all, but it does seem ridiculous that you're not allowed to be considered a fan of Rondo unless you think he's a superstar and the next Celtics great.

[PosImpos]

I disagree with the OP. Rondo can carry a team, but it has to be a team that is capable of being carried if you get what I mean. Rondo is not a volume scorer and will never be one, but he is a player that can make life easier for teammates. What he needs to flourish are athletic players that can score in bunches and crash the boards for quick outlet passes that spur fast breaks. Think about the dread I say showtime Lakers with Magic at the point and Jamer Worthy Byron Scott Michael Cooper on the wings...

So he can carry a team, he just needs a team with a top scorer or two to carry the load offensively . . . .

hey Pos, Derrick Rose couldnt carry the bulls...they needed to bring in Boozer/now hamilton to help take the offensive load off him.

we saw how they were decimated in the playoffs because he couldnt "carry the team"

we get it, you dont like Rondo...but this argument that you are  right because hes "not carrying the team" is flawed..because NO one player can carry a team.

I doubt Derrick rose could carry this celtics squad the way it is right now.

if anything, this year proves that Rondo can be a scorer, but he needs help..maybe a couple other guys who can score as well..and thats something every good player would need.

oh please, did you watch the Bulls last season?  Derrick Rose absolutely carried that team, and has continued carrying them this season.

again, just because I don't think Rondo is a franchise, superstar player doesn't mean I don't like him.  I actually really enjoy watching Rondo, I'm just aware of his flaws and I care a lot more about the Celtics being a top team than I do about necessarily having Rondo on the roster.

I really like Rondo. I just wish he wouldn't so obviously take nights off as he did last night.

And I really like Rondo too!  I think it's ridiculous that I'm supposedly "clearly not a fan" of Rondo if I don't believe he's the sort of player around whom you build a team.  I don't believe he's the sort of player who can be your leader, your go-to-guy, if you want to be a really good team. 

Does that mean I don't really appreciate the things that he can do really well?  Of course not.  Rondo is capable of being incredibly dominant in short stretches -- sometimes even for a few games at a time.  But that's as far as it goes.  There's nothing wrong with that!  He's not an MVP, or a superstar, but he's still unquestionably an All-Star.

I just think it's important, especially since we're about to enter a rebuilding period, where these sorts of things are going to have a major impact on the team's progress in climbing back to contention, to have a realistic, practical sense of exactly how valuable our players are and what sorts of roles we can expect them to play.

Some of us have a different opinion than you, that's all.  I think some of us have shown a history of backing up our opinions of Rondo with substantial evidence.  You don't have to agree.  That's what this is all about; discussions.

You do seem to have this misguided notion that your opinion is the only one that has any validity or that it shows some kind of indisputable objective fact even when your "objective facts" are disputed. 

Funny, from my perspective that seems to be the way most Rondo supporters operate.

I guess it just proves that you can't really convince somebody of something they don't already believe.

Part of it is that staunch Rondo supporters take quick offense if anybody suggests that Rondo isn't just plain great.

But - who on this team right now is great? Besides Rondo?

. . . Nobody on this team is "great," if by "great" you mean a superstar.  We have 3 former superstars and an All-Star.

[celtics2]

can ya see it now? can ya?

[twinbree]

Despite how bad the team as a whole as played, I think it's fair to say that Rondo has done about as much as he could possibly be expected to do so far this season.  He's come out from the very first tip off looking like he wants to prove to everyone that he's a star, and his numbers for the year so far would be his best season, at least statistically speaking.

Despite Rondo's great play, the team has struggled mightily against all but the very worst teams they've played.  I can't help thinking that this is strong confirmation about what many of us have suspected all along -- Rondo is a very good player, but he's not capable of carrying a flawed team.  

One caveat is that the team as currently constructed does not play to his strengths.  Half of the roster is not fast enough to keep up with him on fast breaks, or play the game the way he'd probably most like to play it.  Yet even as bad as they've been, there's still a lot of talent on this roster.  But with Paul playing badly and KG looking "creaky" (to put it mildly), the team has had an extremely difficult time scoring.  

To me this just underlines that you can't expect Rondo to carry a team offensively; if he's the most capable and consistent scorer on the roster (or even the #2), your team is going to have a very difficult time scoring points, and therefore most likely your team is just not going to be very good.

Who is expecting Rondo to carry a team offensively? Knowing his strengths why would anyone expect him to? Rondo’s elite skill is playmaking so it only makes sense for him to be a team’s most consistent playmaker not its top scorer. I don’t see the point in criticize him for not being something he is not supposed to be.  His job continues to be run the offense and get Paul, Ray and KG their shots not score the most. He is taking about the same number of shots so far this season as the Big 3 and Bass. Check out the leading scorers in the league and see how many more shots they take compared to teammates.

Besides, since we won the title I’d say Rondo has at worst been our second best player in the postseason and yet we been pretty good in the playoffs if I say so myself. The point is he doesn’t need to score the most points to lead the team to a win. He can make his impact in other ways – passing, rebounding, hustle etc. Again Danny knows all this and if he plans to build a team with Rondo as our starting PG I’m pretty sure he’ll not bring in stiffs to round out the starting unit. He’ll look for people to complement Rondo’s skillset. Many players put up pretty stats on bad teams but I don’t consider that carrying. Very few players in the history of the league have truly been able to elevate flawed teams not tailored to their strengths I don’t expect Rondo to do that. I expect him to play well, be consistent and improve as a player as long as he's here. I'm fine with him doing that no matter what teammates he's surrounded by.

[GreenFaith1819]

I disagree with the OP. Rondo can carry a team, but it has to be a team that is capable of being carried if you get what I mean. Rondo is not a volume scorer and will never be one, but he is a player that can make life easier for teammates. What he needs to flourish are athletic players that can score in bunches and crash the boards for quick outlet passes that spur fast breaks. Think about the dread I say showtime Lakers with Magic at the point and Jamer Worthy Byron Scott Michael Cooper on the wings...

So he can carry a team, he just needs a team with a top scorer or two to carry the load offensively . . . .

hey Pos, Derrick Rose couldnt carry the bulls...they needed to bring in Boozer/now hamilton to help take the offensive load off him.

we saw how they were decimated in the playoffs because he couldnt "carry the team"

we get it, you dont like Rondo...but this argument that you are  right because hes "not carrying the team" is flawed..because NO one player can carry a team.

I doubt Derrick rose could carry this celtics squad the way it is right now.

if anything, this year proves that Rondo can be a scorer, but he needs help..maybe a couple other guys who can score as well..and thats something every good player would need.

oh please, did you watch the Bulls last season?  Derrick Rose absolutely carried that team, and has continued carrying them this season.

again, just because I don't think Rondo is a franchise, superstar player doesn't mean I don't like him.  I actually really enjoy watching Rondo, I'm just aware of his flaws and I care a lot more about the Celtics being a top team than I do about necessarily having Rondo on the roster.

I really like Rondo. I just wish he wouldn't so obviously take nights off as he did last night.

And I really like Rondo too!  I think it's ridiculous that I'm supposedly "clearly not a fan" of Rondo if I don't believe he's the sort of player around whom you build a team.  I don't believe he's the sort of player who can be your leader, your go-to-guy, if you want to be a really good team. 

Does that mean I don't really appreciate the things that he can do really well?  Of course not.  Rondo is capable of being incredibly dominant in short stretches -- sometimes even for a few games at a time.  But that's as far as it goes.  There's nothing wrong with that!  He's not an MVP, or a superstar, but he's still unquestionably an All-Star.

I just think it's important, especially since we're about to enter a rebuilding period, where these sorts of things are going to have a major impact on the team's progress in climbing back to contention, to have a realistic, practical sense of exactly how valuable our players are and what sorts of roles we can expect them to play.

Some of us have a different opinion than you, that's all.  I think some of us have shown a history of backing up our opinions of Rondo with substantial evidence.  You don't have to agree.  That's what this is all about; discussions.

You do seem to have this misguided notion that your opinion is the only one that has any validity or that it shows some kind of indisputable objective fact even when your "objective facts" are disputed. 

Funny, from my perspective that seems to be the way most Rondo supporters operate.

I guess it just proves that you can't really convince somebody of something they don't already believe.

Part of it is that staunch Rondo supporters take quick offense if anybody suggests that Rondo isn't just plain great.

But - who on this team right now is great? Besides Rondo?

. . . Nobody on this team is "great," if by "great" you mean a superstar.  We have 3 former superstars and an All-Star.

But...Rondo is. He is having the best season of anyone on this team right now. He is improving right before our eyes...making his free throws (!!) and hitting the jumpers (!!).

I thought that most of us were concerned with Rondo improving in those areas, and he is doing it, I think.

As soon as the Captain gets conditioned (again - not blaming Paul, because I love the man as a player...not his fault that his heel was hurt) - this team will right itself.

And Rondo (If given the keys) will be at its lead.

[PosImpos]

Again Danny knows all this and if he plans to build a team with Rondo as our starting PG I’m pretty sure he’ll not bring in stiffs to round out the starting unit. He’ll look for people to complement Rondo’s skillset.

"players that compliment Rondo's skillset" = at least 2-3 players that can be top scoring options on a decent team.

that's the point: you can't just surround Rondo with solid role players and expect to win much.

that absolutely does not mean that Rondo is not a very good player.  it just means he's not going to carry your team in all facets.  you can't build a team around him in the sense that you can't just surround him with complementary players.  you have to bring in guys that will be the focal point of the offense, and then have Rondo make them even better.