Early Season Lesson: Rondo Can't Carry a Team

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Derrick rose can't carry a team...no ONE guy could fix the way these celtics are playing. Rose has a TEAM out there, deng, the guy with the ponytail....they have a lot of weapons....no one guy will do anything out there...you need a team...at least solid role players....we have nothing right now. And what we do have, doc won't play or try them together....

[BballTim]

We're missing lots of good looks early...tired legs, which was expected of an older team like us. If some of those shots fall, we have an entirely different record and this discussion doesn't happen. If we're still struggling like this in a month, then we're really in trouble. But...Rondo's more than doing his part. The other guys have to hit shots. He's getting them looks that they usually make.

That's why he is a good player.  A player this is part of the building plan. 

But he is not the "key stone".  Those types of players are capable of strapping the rest of the team on their backs and carrying them to wins when the rest of the team is underplaying.  (not all the time, but a good amount of times)  They still needed talented teammates to win in the NBA. 

  Rondo's capable of playing as well in the playoffs as most of the players in the league. He's certainly capable of carrying the team in stretches. He changes the equation for the Celts somewhat. The 08-09 team (with KG injured) came close to making the ECF with a rotation aside from Rondo of PP, RA, Baby, Perk, Starbury, House, Scal and Mikki Moore). The 09-10 team  came close to winning a title even though none of the big three were 1st, 2nd or 3rd team all-nba or received a single MVP vote (although KG was very good then). And clearly Rondo's improved since then. I'd think it might be easier to acquire teammates of the level of those teams than it is to acquire a LeBron/DH/Durant level of player.

I would love the team to get a top level player for Rondo to make look better.  Rondo needs at least one (with other players that are good) for the Celtics to be successful in the future.


But the way the NBA is, you have to get one of those players if you want to be a true contender.  The collection of good players win a title maybe once every 2 decades.  

So, if there is a chance to trade Rondo for one of those types of players, the Celtics have to do it.  If not, Celtics keep Rondo and see if they can either draft one of those players or build up enough assets to trade for one.  


Either way, a team built with Rondo as the best player is likely a team that will not be contending for a title.  It can be a good team.  It can be a playoff team.  But it will likely not be a title contending team.

  A team that had Rondo as it's best player *has* contended for a title. They just haven't won a title. People get way too caught up in stats in terms of the makeup of prior champions. When's the last time a team won a title without one of it's two best players being a c or pf? Does that mean that the Heat need to rebuild because they're a long shot to win a title?

[PosImpos]

Despite how bad the team as a whole as played, I think it's fair to say that Rondo has done about as much as he could possibly be expected to do so far this season.  He's come out from the very first tip off looking like he wants to prove to everyone that he's a star, and his numbers for the year so far would be his best season, at least statistically speaking.

Despite Rondo's great play, the team has struggled mightily against all but the very worst teams they've played.  I can't help thinking that this is strong confirmation about what many of us have suspected all along -- Rondo is a very good player, but he's not capable of carrying a flawed team. 

One caveat is that the team as currently constructed does not play to his strengths.  Half of the roster is not fast enough to keep up with him on fast breaks, or play the game the way he'd probably most like to play it.  Yet even as bad as they've been, there's still a lot of talent on this roster.  But with Paul playing badly and KG looking "creaky" (to put it mildly), the team has had an extremely difficult time scoring. 

To me this just underlines that you can't expect Rondo to carry a team offensively; if he's the most capable and consistent scorer on the roster (or even the #2), your team is going to have a very difficult time scoring points, and therefore most likely your team is just not going to be very good.

Wrong.  Disagree with almost every thing the OP says.  unbelievable

  to each his own

[vinnie]

I really like Rondo. I just wish he wouldn't so obviously take nights off as he did last night.

[wdleehi]

We're missing lots of good looks early...tired legs, which was expected of an older team like us. If some of those shots fall, we have an entirely different record and this discussion doesn't happen. If we're still struggling like this in a month, then we're really in trouble. But...Rondo's more than doing his part. The other guys have to hit shots. He's getting them looks that they usually make.

That's why he is a good player.  A player this is part of the building plan. 

But he is not the "key stone".  Those types of players are capable of strapping the rest of the team on their backs and carrying them to wins when the rest of the team is underplaying.  (not all the time, but a good amount of times)  They still needed talented teammates to win in the NBA. 

  Rondo's capable of playing as well in the playoffs as most of the players in the league. He's certainly capable of carrying the team in stretches. He changes the equation for the Celts somewhat. The 08-09 team (with KG injured) came close to making the ECF with a rotation aside from Rondo of PP, RA, Baby, Perk, Starbury, House, Scal and Mikki Moore). The 09-10 team  came close to winning a title even though none of the big three were 1st, 2nd or 3rd team all-nba or received a single MVP vote (although KG was very good then). And clearly Rondo's improved since then. I'd think it might be easier to acquire teammates of the level of those teams than it is to acquire a LeBron/DH/Durant level of player.

I would love the team to get a top level player for Rondo to make look better.  Rondo needs at least one (with other players that are good) for the Celtics to be successful in the future.


But the way the NBA is, you have to get one of those players if you want to be a true contender.  The collection of good players win a title maybe once every 2 decades.  

So, if there is a chance to trade Rondo for one of those types of players, the Celtics have to do it.  If not, Celtics keep Rondo and see if they can either draft one of those players or build up enough assets to trade for one.  


Either way, a team built with Rondo as the best player is likely a team that will not be contending for a title.  It can be a good team.  It can be a playoff team.  But it will likely not be a title contending team.

  A team that had Rondo as it's best player *has* contended for a title. They just haven't won a title. People get way too caught up in stats in terms of the makeup of prior champions. When's the last time a team won a title without one of it's two best players being a c or pf? Does that mean that the Heat need to rebuild because they're a long shot to win a title?

When?  Last years team beat the Knicks and won only one game against a contender.

[BballTim]

We're missing lots of good looks early...tired legs, which was expected of an older team like us. If some of those shots fall, we have an entirely different record and this discussion doesn't happen. If we're still struggling like this in a month, then we're really in trouble. But...Rondo's more than doing his part. The other guys have to hit shots. He's getting them looks that they usually make.

That's why he is a good player.  A player this is part of the building plan. 

But he is not the "key stone".  Those types of players are capable of strapping the rest of the team on their backs and carrying them to wins when the rest of the team is underplaying.  (not all the time, but a good amount of times)  They still needed talented teammates to win in the NBA. 

  Rondo's capable of playing as well in the playoffs as most of the players in the league. He's certainly capable of carrying the team in stretches. He changes the equation for the Celts somewhat. The 08-09 team (with KG injured) came close to making the ECF with a rotation aside from Rondo of PP, RA, Baby, Perk, Starbury, House, Scal and Mikki Moore). The 09-10 team  came close to winning a title even though none of the big three were 1st, 2nd or 3rd team all-nba or received a single MVP vote (although KG was very good then). And clearly Rondo's improved since then. I'd think it might be easier to acquire teammates of the level of those teams than it is to acquire a LeBron/DH/Durant level of player.

I would love the team to get a top level player for Rondo to make look better.  Rondo needs at least one (with other players that are good) for the Celtics to be successful in the future.


But the way the NBA is, you have to get one of those players if you want to be a true contender.  The collection of good players win a title maybe once every 2 decades.  

So, if there is a chance to trade Rondo for one of those types of players, the Celtics have to do it.  If not, Celtics keep Rondo and see if they can either draft one of those players or build up enough assets to trade for one.  


Either way, a team built with Rondo as the best player is likely a team that will not be contending for a title.  It can be a good team.  It can be a playoff team.  But it will likely not be a title contending team.

  A team that had Rondo as it's best player *has* contended for a title. They just haven't won a title. People get way too caught up in stats in terms of the makeup of prior champions. When's the last time a team won a title without one of it's two best players being a c or pf? Does that mean that the Heat need to rebuild because they're a long shot to win a title?

When?  Last years team beat the Knicks and won only one game against a contender.

 The 08-09 team, where he pretty much averaged a triple double in the playoffs, we were probably 1 halfway decent bench player away from beating the team that went to the finals. The 09-10 team, where he carried the Celts past the top team in the league and we went to game 7 of the finals.

[Celtics18]

Playoff series in which Rajon Rondo has been the best player for either team:

2009, 1st round vs. Chicago.

2010, 1st round vs. Miami.

2010, 2nd round vs. Cleveland.

2011, 1st round vs. New York. 

Each of those teams (except maybe New York) has a player that most would consider an elite franchise level player.  Yet, they were beaten by Rondo's Celtics.

[aries31]

not sure i'd agree that rondo can't lead a team cause he's been doing fine this season, but you can't expect him to kill himself when other guy's have too step up and make the shots that rondo gives them. other guy's have to keep up with rondo in order to see successful results. bottom line is the blame is being put on the wrong people. rondo has looked like rondo, ray is playing like ray, paul needs to get into shape, kg needs to shoot the ball and stop being so unselfish. when kg is a little selfish this team looks better, and o'neal needs to get the hell off this team. common denominator is O'NEAL. we need a young experienced center asap. I seriosly feel a trade coming!!

[PosImpos]

I really like Rondo. I just wish he wouldn't so obviously take nights off as he did last night.

And I really like Rondo too!  I think it's ridiculous that I'm supposedly "clearly not a fan" of Rondo if I don't believe he's the sort of player around whom you build a team.  I don't believe he's the sort of player who can be your leader, your go-to-guy, if you want to be a really good team. 

Does that mean I don't really appreciate the things that he can do really well?  Of course not.  Rondo is capable of being incredibly dominant in short stretches -- sometimes even for a few games at a time.  But that's as far as it goes.  There's nothing wrong with that!  He's not an MVP, or a superstar, but he's still unquestionably an All-Star.

I just think it's important, especially since we're about to enter a rebuilding period, where these sorts of things are going to have a major impact on the team's progress in climbing back to contention, to have a realistic, practical sense of exactly how valuable our players are and what sorts of roles we can expect them to play.

[jc3celticsphan]

literally he cant carry them on his back when hes the only one on the fast break.... just sayin

[PosImpos]

Playoff series in which Rajon Rondo has been the best player for either team:

2009, 1st round vs. Chicago.

2010, 1st round vs. Miami.

2010, 2nd round vs. Cleveland.

2011, 1st round vs. New York. 

Each of those teams (except maybe New York) has a player that most would consider an elite franchise level player.  Yet, they were beaten by Rondo's Celtics.

2009 vs. Chicago -- Celtics had better talent at pretty much every spot other than starting PF.

2010 vs. Miami -- ditto, except it was SG were Miami had the one advantage

2010 vs. Cleveland -- Rondo was clearly the best player in the series; this is the one time when Rondo has played for multiple games like an absolute superstar.  Even so, the Celtics were also a much more talented team except at SF.

2011 vs. New York -- New York had no depth at all, were incredibly weak at center, Chauncey was injured for most of the series, Amare was significantly limited.

[Ogaju]

I disagree with the OP. Rondo can carry a team, but it has to be a team that is capable of being carried if you get what I mean. Rondo is not a volume scorer and will never be one, but he is a player that can make life easier for teammates. What he needs to flourish are athletic players that can score in bunches and crash the boards for quick outlet passes that spur fast breaks. Think about the dread I say showtime Lakers with Magic at the point and Jamer Worthy Byron Scott Michael Cooper on the wings...

[Celtics18]

I really like Rondo. I just wish he wouldn't so obviously take nights off as he did last night.

And I really like Rondo too!  I think it's ridiculous that I'm supposedly "clearly not a fan" of Rondo if I don't believe he's the sort of player around whom you build a team.  I don't believe he's the sort of player who can be your leader, your go-to-guy, if you want to be a really good team. 

Does that mean I don't really appreciate the things that he can do really well?  Of course not.  Rondo is capable of being incredibly dominant in short stretches -- sometimes even for a few games at a time.  But that's as far as it goes.  There's nothing wrong with that!  He's not an MVP, or a superstar, but he's still unquestionably an All-Star.

I just think it's important, especially since we're about to enter a rebuilding period, where these sorts of things are going to have a major impact on the team's progress in climbing back to contention, to have a realistic, practical sense of exactly how valuable our players are and what sorts of roles we can expect them to play.

Some of us have a different opinion than you, that's all.  I think some of us have shown a history of backing up our opinions of Rondo with substantial evidence.  You don't have to agree.  That's what this is all about; discussions.

You do seem to have this misguided notion that your opinion is the only one that has any validity or that it shows some kind of indisputable objective fact even when your "objective facts" are disputed.  

[PosImpos]

I really like Rondo. I just wish he wouldn't so obviously take nights off as he did last night.

And I really like Rondo too!  I think it's ridiculous that I'm supposedly "clearly not a fan" of Rondo if I don't believe he's the sort of player around whom you build a team.  I don't believe he's the sort of player who can be your leader, your go-to-guy, if you want to be a really good team.  

Does that mean I don't really appreciate the things that he can do really well?  Of course not.  Rondo is capable of being incredibly dominant in short stretches -- sometimes even for a few games at a time.  But that's as far as it goes.  There's nothing wrong with that!  He's not an MVP, or a superstar, but he's still unquestionably an All-Star.

I just think it's important, especially since we're about to enter a rebuilding period, where these sorts of things are going to have a major impact on the team's progress in climbing back to contention, to have a realistic, practical sense of exactly how valuable our players are and what sorts of roles we can expect them to play.

Some of us have a different opinion than you, that's all.  I think some of us have shown a history of backing up our opinions of Rondo with substantial evidence.  You don't have to agree.  That's what this is all about; discussions.

You do seem to have this misguided notion that your opinion is the only one that has any validity or that it shows some kind of indisputable objective fact even when your "objective facts" are disputed.  

Funny, from my perspective that seems to be the way most Rondo supporters operate.

I guess it just proves that you can't really convince somebody of something they don't already believe.

Part of it is that staunch Rondo supporters take quick offense if anybody suggests that Rondo isn't just plain great.

[PosImpos]

I disagree with the OP. Rondo can carry a team, but it has to be a team that is capable of being carried if you get what I mean. Rondo is not a volume scorer and will never be one, but he is a player that can make life easier for teammates. What he needs to flourish are athletic players that can score in bunches and crash the boards for quick outlet passes that spur fast breaks. Think about the dread I say showtime Lakers with Magic at the point and Jamer Worthy Byron Scott Michael Cooper on the wings...

So he can carry a team, he just needs a team with a top scorer or two to carry the load offensively . . . .