Early Season Lesson: Rondo Can't Carry a Team

[wdleehi]

its funny, before the argument was that Rondo couldnt take more of a scoring load...now that he is(and doing it in multiple ways like jumpshooting, free throws, layups) those who arent rondo fans have to say "well he cant carry a team!"

I just dont think i've seen too many players carry a team all by themselves..thats why it is a team game....if you build a team around rondo very similar to how the big 3 had been built I think they can be successful

and Who lets be honest, getting a "franchise player" is like shooting fish in a barrel..the celtics are better off putting together a solid "team" of building blocks

You mean those teams that are "good" in the regular season but rarely win titles in the playoffs.  An exception happens about once every two decades.  

[Marcus13]

That's been clear for years now.  While a great, true point guard can be a huge assett (like Rondo) he isn't going to be able to carry your team.  It's his job to make the lives easier for the players who are supposed to carry the team

[clover]

Rondo is a building block. Not a franchise player.

I'm not sure what the distinction is here, but I'd like to remind everyone that Rajon Rondo has been the best player on the floor in Celtics playoff series wins against Derrick Rose's Bulls, Dwayne Wade's Heat, Lebron James' Cavs, and Carmelo Anthony's Knicks.  He was also arguably our best player in a close seven game loss to the Lakers in the '09-'10 Finals.  

So, I say let's keep Rajon Rondo as our building block and build the next Celtics contender around him.  

Franchise player = someone you build a team around, generally a top five or top ten player.  

Building block = a key cog in the machine, genuine top tier talent, but not an MVP caliber talent

For example,

Franchise player = LeBron, Durant, Dwight
Building block = Amare Stoudemire, LaMarcus Aldridge Manu Ginobili, Danny Granger and lesser talents

Yep.  I'd say he's approaching as valuable a BB as Pierce was, and more than Ray became, when KG was hauled in because the C's had those two BB's.

[Who]

My main point in making this post was to respond to the oft-floated notion that in the post-Big 3 era it will be possible to simply surround Rondo with solid roleplayers and still be a competitive team.  So far this season we've basically had a team of role players, Rondo, and a decent complementary scorer in Ray Allen, and we've been awful.

A team with depth and solid role players should play .500 basketball.

Now add a guy like Rondo to the mix and you should play 45-49 win pace.

[Celtics18]

My main point in making this post was to respond to the oft-floated notion that in the post-Big 3 era it will be possible to simply surround Rondo with solid roleplayers and still be a competitive team.  So far this season we've basically had a team of role players, Rondo, and a decent complementary scorer in Ray Allen, and we've been awful.

They have to be the right role players.  Nobody is saying that we can surround Rajon Rondo with just anyone and be a perennial playoff team and championship contender.

[Who]

and Who lets be honest, getting a "franchise player" is like shooting fish in a barrel..the celtics are better off putting together a solid "team" of building blocks

I fully agree ... I want to see Danny build a team in the mold of the recent Detroit Pistons championship team with Rajon Rondo starring as the first piece of the puzzle.

I also think that the Celtics best chance at getting a franchise player may come via a trade after acquiring other building blocks and putting together a high level basketball team.

Then looking for a final piece, or to move multiple pieces into a greater singular talent, to either put them over the top or create a stronger core to build around.

[Inside-Out]

Rondo is a building block. Not a franchise player.

I'm not sure what the distinction is here, but I'd like to remind everyone that Rajon Rondo has been the best player on the floor in Celtics playoff series wins against Derrick Rose's Bulls, Dwayne Wade's Heat, Lebron James' Cavs, and Carmelo Anthony's Knicks.  He was also arguably our best player in a close seven game loss to the Lakers in the '09-'10 Finals.  

So, I say let's keep Rajon Rondo as our building block and build the next Celtics contender around him.  

Franchise player = someone you build a team around, generally a top five or top ten player.  

Building block = a key cog in the machine, genuine top tier talent, but not an MVP caliber talent

For example,

Franchise player = LeBron, Durant, Dwight
Building block = Amare Stoudemire, LaMarcus Aldridge Manu Ginobili, Danny Granger and lesser talents

Perfect.  TP.

And a TP to Danny for recognizing the distinction, too, and giving Rondo a building block contract instead of a franchise player contract.

The big question is whether JGreen can be one of those building block-type players.  IF so, we're not in bad shape at all heading into the offseason with two building blocks, two picks, cap space, and veteran leadership from the Captain and Doc.

I think Mayo is one of those building block players, too.  Can an ensemble cast still make a run with the way the league is these days?  Those famed Pistons crushed LA with Kobe, Shaq, Payton, and the Mailman after all...

Rondo
Mayo/Ray
Pierce
JGreen/J3
Kaman

[get_banners]

We're missing lots of good looks early...tired legs, which was expected of an older team like us. If some of those shots fall, we have an entirely different record and this discussion doesn't happen. If we're still struggling like this in a month, then we're really in trouble. But...Rondo's more than doing his part. The other guys have to hit shots. He's getting them looks that they usually make.

[wdleehi]

We're missing lots of good looks early...tired legs, which was expected of an older team like us. If some of those shots fall, we have an entirely different record and this discussion doesn't happen. If we're still struggling like this in a month, then we're really in trouble. But...Rondo's more than doing his part. The other guys have to hit shots. He's getting them looks that they usually make.

That's why he is a good player.  A player this is part of the building plan. 

But he is not the "key stone".  Those types of players are capable of strapping the rest of the team on their backs and carrying them to wins when the rest of the team is underplaying.  (not all the time, but a good amount of times)  They still needed talented teammates to win in the NBA. 

[BballTim]

My main point in making this post was to respond to the oft-floated notion that in the post-Big 3 era it will be possible to simply surround Rondo with solid roleplayers and still be a competitive team.  So far this season we've basically had a team of role players, Rondo, and a decent complementary scorer in Ray Allen, and we've been awful.

  I don't think that people generally float the notion that you can surround Rondo with generally average to below average players (and that's what he's had so far) and have a good team. You're probably thinking of when people respond to the *really oft-floated* notion that Rondo's success is based on being on the court with superstars and he'll never be able to play effectively without great teammates. The Celts in general have been a bad offensive team this year as I'm sure you'd agree. Rondo can still score, still get assists and he has clearly had a positive impact on the team in spite of this.

[BballTim]

Also, for those who mentioned Derrick Rose, take a look at how the Bulls' frontcourt has performed early in the season (Noah and Boozer have been pretty bad) and then take a look at the Bulls' record.

  The Bulls outscore their opponents by a significant margin with Rose on the bench. I'm pretty sure this was true last year as well.

[ben]

Despite how bad the team as a whole as played, I think it's fair to say that Rondo has done about as much as he could possibly be expected to do so far this season.  He's come out from the very first tip off looking like he wants to prove to everyone that he's a star, and his numbers for the year so far would be his best season, at least statistically speaking.

Despite Rondo's great play, the team has struggled mightily against all but the very worst teams they've played.  I can't help thinking that this is strong confirmation about what many of us have suspected all along -- Rondo is a very good player, but he's not capable of carrying a flawed team.  

One caveat is that the team as currently constructed does not play to his strengths.  Half of the roster is not fast enough to keep up with him on fast breaks, or play the game the way he'd probably most like to play it.  Yet even as bad as they've been, there's still a lot of talent on this roster.  But with Paul playing badly and KG looking "creaky" (to put it mildly), the team has had an extremely difficult time scoring.  

To me this just underlines that you can't expect Rondo to carry a team offensively; if he's the most capable and consistent scorer on the roster (or even the #2), your team is going to have a very difficult time scoring points, and therefore most likely your team is just not going to be very good.

Wrong.  Disagree with almost every thing the OP says.  unbelievable

[BballTim]

We're missing lots of good looks early...tired legs, which was expected of an older team like us. If some of those shots fall, we have an entirely different record and this discussion doesn't happen. If we're still struggling like this in a month, then we're really in trouble. But...Rondo's more than doing his part. The other guys have to hit shots. He's getting them looks that they usually make.

That's why he is a good player.  A player this is part of the building plan. 

But he is not the "key stone".  Those types of players are capable of strapping the rest of the team on their backs and carrying them to wins when the rest of the team is underplaying.  (not all the time, but a good amount of times)  They still needed talented teammates to win in the NBA. 

  Rondo's capable of playing as well in the playoffs as most of the players in the league. He's certainly capable of carrying the team in stretches. He changes the equation for the Celts somewhat. The 08-09 team (with KG injured) came close to making the ECF with a rotation aside from Rondo of PP, RA, Baby, Perk, Starbury, House, Scal and Mikki Moore). The 09-10 team  came close to winning a title even though none of the big three were 1st, 2nd or 3rd team all-nba or received a single MVP vote (although KG was very good then). And clearly Rondo's improved since then. I'd think it might be easier to acquire teammates of the level of those teams than it is to acquire a LeBron/DH/Durant level of player.

[GreenFaith1819]

Wow.

But...but..didn't he carry this team during the 08-09 playoffs?

And...what about 09-10? Wow.

Man played so well during our playoff run in 09-10 that he earned this in May of that year:



What about last year's playoffs? He shredded NY. Shredded them again this year, too.

And please don't tell me: "Well, we didn't win it all that year."(09-10). That argument means nothing to a man that suffered through the late 80s, 90s, and early 2000's with this team.

I mean....the man is making his freethrows...shooting better...what else do we want?

Michael Jordan? Superman? Tebow? lol..

But seriously...as soon as The Boston Celtics hand this man the keys permanently, we'll see him carry this team.

Give him the keys....don't just tease him, and tell him to bring the car back by 1000 pm. Tell him the key (and car) is yours, Rajon...if you damage it or don't take care of the car, then it is on YOU, Rajon.

But give the man the keys already.

[wdleehi]

We're missing lots of good looks early...tired legs, which was expected of an older team like us. If some of those shots fall, we have an entirely different record and this discussion doesn't happen. If we're still struggling like this in a month, then we're really in trouble. But...Rondo's more than doing his part. The other guys have to hit shots. He's getting them looks that they usually make.

That's why he is a good player.  A player this is part of the building plan. 

But he is not the "key stone".  Those types of players are capable of strapping the rest of the team on their backs and carrying them to wins when the rest of the team is underplaying.  (not all the time, but a good amount of times)  They still needed talented teammates to win in the NBA. 

  Rondo's capable of playing as well in the playoffs as most of the players in the league. He's certainly capable of carrying the team in stretches. He changes the equation for the Celts somewhat. The 08-09 team (with KG injured) came close to making the ECF with a rotation aside from Rondo of PP, RA, Baby, Perk, Starbury, House, Scal and Mikki Moore). The 09-10 team  came close to winning a title even though none of the big three were 1st, 2nd or 3rd team all-nba or received a single MVP vote (although KG was very good then). And clearly Rondo's improved since then. I'd think it might be easier to acquire teammates of the level of those teams than it is to acquire a LeBron/DH/Durant level of player.

I would love the team to get a top level player for Rondo to make look better.  Rondo needs at least one (with other players that are good) for the Celtics to be successful in the future.


But the way the NBA is, you have to get one of those players if you want to be a true contender.  The collection of good players win a title maybe once every 2 decades.  

So, if there is a chance to trade Rondo for one of those types of players, the Celtics have to do it.  If not, Celtics keep Rondo and see if they can either draft one of those players or build up enough assets to trade for one.  


Either way, a team built with Rondo as the best player is likely a team that will not be contending for a title.  It can be a good team.  It can be a playoff team.  But it will likely not be a title contending team.