Early Season Lesson: Rondo Can't Carry a Team

[BballTim]

I really like Rondo. I just wish he wouldn't so obviously take nights off as he did last night.

And I really like Rondo too!  I think it's ridiculous that I'm supposedly "clearly not a fan" of Rondo if I don't believe he's the sort of player around whom you build a team.  I don't believe he's the sort of player who can be your leader, your go-to-guy, if you want to be a really good team. 

Does that mean I don't really appreciate the things that he can do really well?  Of course not. 

  You think you appreciate what Rondo adds to a team, I think I appreciate what Rondo adds to a team, so did the guy who (around the start of the season) said that without 3 HOFers Rondo would be another Gerald Green. But you're starting threads about how Rondo can't carry an offense when the offense is 16 ppp better when he's in than when he's on the bench. I'd also disagree with your assessment of what he does well when you don't think he's worth keeping yet you think Melo is a transcendent player. But, to each his own.

Rondo is capable of being incredibly dominant in short stretches -- sometimes even for a few games at a time.  But that's as far as it goes.  There's nothing wrong with that!  He's not an MVP, or a superstar, but he's still unquestionably an All-Star.

  You're basing what he's capable of based on what he's accomplished before he was 25 years old. By that standard we know that LeBron and DH aren't capable of being the best player on a championship team, just like we knew Dirk wasn't capable of that. He's done things in the playoffs that very few people in nba history have done. I can see the argument that you don't think he'll put it together, clearly he's capable of doing it.

[BballTim]

I disagree with the OP. Rondo can carry a team, but it has to be a team that is capable of being carried if you get what I mean. Rondo is not a volume scorer and will never be one, but he is a player that can make life easier for teammates. What he needs to flourish are athletic players that can score in bunches and crash the boards for quick outlet passes that spur fast breaks. Think about the dread I say showtime Lakers with Magic at the point and Jamer Worthy Byron Scott Michael Cooper on the wings...

So he can carry a team, he just needs a team with a top scorer or two to carry the load offensively . . . .

hey Pos, Derrick Rose couldnt carry the bulls...they needed to bring in Boozer/now hamilton to help take the offensive load off him.

we saw how they were decimated in the playoffs because he couldnt "carry the team"

we get it, you dont like Rondo...but this argument that you are  right because hes "not carrying the team" is flawed..because NO one player can carry a team.

I doubt Derrick rose could carry this celtics squad the way it is right now.

if anything, this year proves that Rondo can be a scorer, but he needs help..maybe a couple other guys who can score as well..and thats something every good player would need.

oh please, did you watch the Bulls last season?  Derrick Rose absolutely carried that team, and has continued carrying them this season.

  Rose is a great player but it's still true that the Bulls have done about as well with him on the bench as they have when he's been in the games the last two years.

[BballTim]

Again Danny knows all this and if he plans to build a team with Rondo as our starting PG I’m pretty sure he’ll not bring in stiffs to round out the starting unit. He’ll look for people to complement Rondo’s skillset.

"players that compliment Rondo's skillset" = at least 2-3 players that can be top scoring options on a decent team.

that's the point: you can't just surround Rondo with solid role players and expect to win much.

  It's been a few years since we've had 2-3 players that would be top scorers on good teams, especially considering the number of people who say the offense stalls because we don't have anyone who can create their own shot.

[PosImpos]

Again Danny knows all this and if he plans to build a team with Rondo as our starting PG I’m pretty sure he’ll not bring in stiffs to round out the starting unit. He’ll look for people to complement Rondo’s skillset.

"players that compliment Rondo's skillset" = at least 2-3 players that can be top scoring options on a decent team.

that's the point: you can't just surround Rondo with solid role players and expect to win much.

  It's been a few years since we've had 2-3 players that would be top scorers on good teams, especially considering the number of people who say the offense stalls because we don't have anyone who can create their own shot.

ray and pierce have both been good enough in recent years to be top scoring options on decent teams, though perhaps not the #1 option.

indeed, even with those two on board, and KG as a decent complementary (and occasional primary) scorer on board, the offense has been pretty tepid in recent years, except for the short time when they were playing with a healthy Shaq, who changed everything.

[PosImpos]

I disagree with the OP. Rondo can carry a team, but it has to be a team that is capable of being carried if you get what I mean. Rondo is not a volume scorer and will never be one, but he is a player that can make life easier for teammates. What he needs to flourish are athletic players that can score in bunches and crash the boards for quick outlet passes that spur fast breaks. Think about the dread I say showtime Lakers with Magic at the point and Jamer Worthy Byron Scott Michael Cooper on the wings...

So he can carry a team, he just needs a team with a top scorer or two to carry the load offensively . . . .

hey Pos, Derrick Rose couldnt carry the bulls...they needed to bring in Boozer/now hamilton to help take the offensive load off him.

we saw how they were decimated in the playoffs because he couldnt "carry the team"

we get it, you dont like Rondo...but this argument that you are  right because hes "not carrying the team" is flawed..because NO one player can carry a team.

I doubt Derrick rose could carry this celtics squad the way it is right now.

if anything, this year proves that Rondo can be a scorer, but he needs help..maybe a couple other guys who can score as well..and thats something every good player would need.

oh please, did you watch the Bulls last season?  Derrick Rose absolutely carried that team, and has continued carrying them this season.

  Rose is a great player but it's still true that the Bulls have done about as well with him on the bench as they have when he's been in the games the last two years.

which should tell you, more than anything else, that +/- is a flawed statistic.

[Celtics18]

I disagree with the OP. Rondo can carry a team, but it has to be a team that is capable of being carried if you get what I mean. Rondo is not a volume scorer and will never be one, but he is a player that can make life easier for teammates. What he needs to flourish are athletic players that can score in bunches and crash the boards for quick outlet passes that spur fast breaks. Think about the dread I say showtime Lakers with Magic at the point and Jamer Worthy Byron Scott Michael Cooper on the wings...

So he can carry a team, he just needs a team with a top scorer or two to carry the load offensively . . . .

hey Pos, Derrick Rose couldnt carry the bulls...they needed to bring in Boozer/now hamilton to help take the offensive load off him.

we saw how they were decimated in the playoffs because he couldnt "carry the team"

we get it, you dont like Rondo...but this argument that you are  right because hes "not carrying the team" is flawed..because NO one player can carry a team.

I doubt Derrick rose could carry this celtics squad the way it is right now.

if anything, this year proves that Rondo can be a scorer, but he needs help..maybe a couple other guys who can score as well..and thats something every good player would need.

oh please, did you watch the Bulls last season?  Derrick Rose absolutely carried that team, and has continued carrying them this season.

  Rose is a great player but it's still true that the Bulls have done about as well with him on the bench as they have when he's been in the games the last two years.

which should tell you, more than anything else, that +/- is a flawed statistic.

That's good stuff, Pos.  I'm Laughing . . . out loud. 

A statistic that doesn't recognize what you know must be flawed. 

[PosImpos]

That's good stuff, Pos.  I'm Laughing . . . out loud.  

A statistic that doesn't recognize what you know must be flawed.  

Yep, that's obviously it, Celtic18.  Clearly you've got it all figured out.

A statistic that tells us that the Chicago Bulls are no better off with Derrick Rose playing than when he's on the bench is definitely very useful and explanatory.

[PosImpos]

I really like Rondo. I just wish he wouldn't so obviously take nights off as he did last night.

And I really like Rondo too!  I think it's ridiculous that I'm supposedly "clearly not a fan" of Rondo if I don't believe he's the sort of player around whom you build a team.  I don't believe he's the sort of player who can be your leader, your go-to-guy, if you want to be a really good team. 

Does that mean I don't really appreciate the things that he can do really well?  Of course not.

  You think you appreciate what Rondo adds to a team, I think I appreciate what Rondo adds to a team, so did the guy who (around the start of the season) said that without 3 HOFers Rondo would be another Gerald Green. But you're starting threads about how Rondo can't carry an offense when the offense is 16 ppp better when he's in than when he's on the bench. I'd also disagree with your assessment of what he does well when you don't think he's worth keeping yet you think Melo is a transcendent player. But, to each his own.

Rondo is capable of being incredibly dominant in short stretches -- sometimes even for a few games at a time.  But that's as far as it goes.  There's nothing wrong with that!  He's not an MVP, or a superstar, but he's still unquestionably an All-Star.

  You're basing what he's capable of based on what he's accomplished before he was 25 years old. By that standard we know that LeBron and DH aren't capable of being the best player on a championship team, just like we knew Dirk wasn't capable of that. He's done things in the playoffs that very few people in nba history have done. I can see the argument that you don't think he'll put it together, clearly he's capable of doing it.

You know what, Tim?  You're right.  I hate Rondo.  Always have.  I completely dislike his game and I can't stand watching him, and I have an agenda which is based around convincing as many people as possible that the Celtics need to get rid of Rondo right away just so I don't have to watch him anymore. 

All of this is evidently true because I do not appreciate his greatness, as the best point guard in the league, the way that you do.  I guess that's just a serious, debilitating character flaw that I have.  Any bit of basketball analysis that I might put forward should be disregarded because I cannot recognize the bald-faced, obvious truth that Rondo is one of the best players in the league and is most certainly capable of carrying this team to a title.

Amen.

[Celtics18]

 I hate Rondo.  Always have.  I completely dislike his game and I can't stand watching him, and I have an agenda which is based around convincing as many people as possible that the Celtics need to get rid of Rondo right away just so I don't have to watch him anymore.

 

 




Your honesty is refreshing.  

[PosImpos]

 I hate Rondo.  Always have.  I completely dislike his game and I can't stand watching him, and I have an agenda which is based around convincing as many people as possible that the Celtics need to get rid of Rondo right away just so I don't have to watch him anymore.

 




Your honesty is refreshing. 

I'm glad that we've reached such a high level of discourse, Celtics18.

[twinbree]

Again Danny knows all this and if he plans to build a team with Rondo as our starting PG I’m pretty sure he’ll not bring in stiffs to round out the starting unit. He’ll look for people to complement Rondo’s skillset.

"players that compliment Rondo's skillset" = at least 2-3 players that can be top scoring options on a decent team.

that's the point: you can't just surround Rondo with solid role players and expect to win much.

that absolutely does not mean that Rondo is not a very good player.  it just means he's not going to carry your team in all facets.  you can't build a team around him in the sense that you can't just surround him with complementary players.  you have to bring in guys that will be the focal point of the offense, and then have Rondo make them even better.

Really? And how do you know that? That is just conjecture. How do we know that Rondo's skillset is only complemented by 2 to 3 top scoring types? Just because it is what we have seen so far does not mean that it is the only kind of team that works for him. And I wouldn't use the team's play this season to conclude you can't win much when surrounding Rondo with solid role players because there has been nothing solid about this season's team outside of Ray and Brandon on offense.

Please name all the players who can carry their team in all facets in the league. And by all facets I assume you mean more than scoring. I have a hard problem counting more than 5 which is why I find this issue about Rondo's not being that kind of player irrelevant. Those kind of players are so hard to find and even harder to acquire that it is not like we can easily pick up one of them once Rondo is out of the picture.

We need excellent bigs to be contenders in this league and finding ways to build our front court is frankly more important to me going forward than obsessing over Rondo's scoring.

[Casperian]

Rondo is a building block. Not a franchise player.

I agree, and I think this distinction is important.
It means that Rondo is not untouchable, so every option involving him needs to be explored.

It also means that if our plan is to tank for a year or two, it´s probably smarter to trade him than to keep him, while his value is still high. I fear that once we´re a bad team, and Rondo is our best player and has only the average rookie to work with, his flaws will stand out and get exaggerated even more. So, unless we´re 100% committed to Rondo, and wouldn´t trade him even for the next Magic (and we aren´t, considering the Chris Paul rumors), it might not be a bad idea to trade him to increase our flexibility even more.

[Celtics18]

Rondo is a building block. Not a franchise player.

I agree, and I think this distinction is important.
It means that Rondo is not untouchable, so every option involving him needs to be explored.

It also means that if our plan is to tank for a year or two, it´s probably smarter to trade him than to keep him, while his value is still high. I fear that once we´re a bad team, and Rondo is our best player and has only the average rookie to work with, his flaws will stand out and get exaggerated even more. So, unless we´re 100% committed to Rondo, and wouldn´t trade him even for the next Magic (and we aren´t, considering the Chris Paul rumors), it might not be a bad idea to trade him to increase our flexibility even more.

I want to make sure I'm getting this right.  Are you saying that the reason for trading Rondo is that you think he'll look bad on a team that is trying to be bad on purpose?

If that is your point, it seems like very strange logic.

[Casperian]

Rondo is a building block. Not a franchise player.

I agree, and I think this distinction is important.
It means that Rondo is not untouchable, so every option involving him needs to be explored.

It also means that if our plan is to tank for a year or two, it´s probably smarter to trade him than to keep him, while his value is still high. I fear that once we´re a bad team, and Rondo is our best player and has only the average rookie to work with, his flaws will stand out and get exaggerated even more. So, unless we´re 100% committed to Rondo, and wouldn´t trade him even for the next Magic (and we aren´t, considering the Chris Paul rumors), it might not be a bad idea to trade him to increase our flexibility even more.

I want to make sure I'm getting this right.  Are you saying that the reason for trading Rondo is that you think he'll look bad on a team that is trying to be bad on purpose?

If that is your point, it seems like very strange logic.

That´s not exactly what I meant. Young, bad teams aren´t trying to be bad on purpose, even if the management does.
Rondo will be the player who should be the best player on the team, by pedigree alone, but he won´t be a great scorer, nor will he have Ray or Pierce for easy assists, or KG behind him to cover him when he plays lazy defense (which he does quite often), or a big man who can start the fast break as often as he would like.

[green7]

give rondo durant,harden,ibaka,perk and watch what he does

you see how much open shots pierce garnett and Jo had in each game that they missed it's not rondo fault it's there's