Donny Marshall: Celts still considering trading Rondo (merged)

[snively]

My theory is that Donny was not kidding that people would be surprised by the destination, and the C's are reviving 3-way talks with Houston and the Lakers, with the Lakers getting Rondo and Ray, Houston getting Gasol, and the C's getting Martin, Scola, and Dragic.



....and yes, I am kidding, I think Donny knows nothing.

I can see the Lakers being in the mix, but I can't see them giving up Gasol for Rondo and Ray.  Chris Paul is a difference making PG, Rondo isn't and Ray is a backup on that team.  Now I could see some tweaks making that trade possible (and I think all 3 teams probably do this).

Celtics get Martin, Lowry, Barnes
Rockets get Gasol, Allen
Lakers get Rondo, Scola

Takes away most of the Celtic's cap space next summer, but still gets a promising young PG and a heck of a scorer and relatively young SG.  Barnes expires this year, but would be a great backup SF behind Pierce this year.

I think that gives the Celtics a similar shot at a title this year, but definitely improves the team going forward.

If Lowry/Martin was really as good as Rondo/Ray, I think the Rockets would have won a lot more games last year.  They are slightly above-average starters.  Rondo's a top 5 PG and Ray's a solidly above-average starter.

We get worse in the present and Rondo + cap space/cheaper Ray is better in the future too.

Did Lowry/Martin have Pierce, Garnett, etc. playing next to them?  Did they play in the Eastern Conference?  Houston was 43-39 in the West and not just the West but the Southwest where Houston was the last place team.  Every other division in basketball had at least 2 teams finish below .500. 

Also, Lowry is also improving by the minute and has significantly improved every year in the league.

Lowry has improved from solid back-up guard to above-average starting guard.  He's the same age as Rondo, who improved from back-up guard on a terrible team to the top 5 pg he is today.   I don't see why you'd prefer Lowry.

Kevin Martin is one of the league's most efficient & prolific scorers, but also one of its worst defensive players and he does little to facilitate his teammates offense.  I'd actually like him as a Ray Allen replacement (his ability to draw fouls would be useful), but I would definitely not downgrade from Rondo to Lowry to make it happen.

Who said I would prefer Lowry to Rondo?  I believe the upgrade at SG is worth the downgrade at PG.  I also believe, Lowry's much better offensive efficiency would be of benefit to this team and the team going forward (Rondo's terrible offense isn't as harmful with the players around him, but when they start retiring it will be a huge detriment).  By adding Lowry and Martin the team is much better positioned going forward and won't be any less likely to win the title this year (still a mid-level title contender).

I believe this trade would make us worse offensively and defensively.  Lowry's a better shooter than Rondo, but not by much (last year was the first time he shot better than 30% from 3), and he's not in Rondo's league as a playmaker.  Nor is he the kind of defensive presence Rondo is.

Martin for Ray is almost an even swap for this year.  Martin's the more prolific scorer, but I'd consider Ray the better defender.

All I see is a fairly significant downgrade at the point with the only benefit being a younger Ray replacement under contract for next year

[Fafnir]

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7qd9v6c

Celts get Nash, Gortat
Suns get Rondo, Bradley, Bass and CLippers 1st round pick

Suns get a young all star and a first rounder
Celtics get two great players, and Gortat at a very reasonable price

Overpaying way too much!

I'm sorry but I don't want to stand pat with a team with NO SHOT of winning the championship.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. By the time Phoenix is willing to let Nash go we will know whether or not we are a legit contender as is with Rondo. I find a trade for Nash interesting but Phoenix has no leverage. He is unrestricted at the end of the year and likely headed elsewhere. If anything they should give us a protected pick for Rondo. He's younger and cheaper.

A deal like this makes more sense:

Robin Lopez, Michael Pietrus, and Steve Nash
for
Rondo, a 2nd round pick and Jermaine (and maybe a filler if were at 15 guys)

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=d2uj5s7

If we're not getting another piece other than Nash that is a big upgrade (and Lopez is worse than O'Neal and just as brittle at age 21), its not worth even considering.

Especially with Pietrus being hurt.

[Finkelskyhook]

Los Nash is the antithesis of the way the Cs play.

The Cs are simply too old to chase los Nash's man around defensively for the 35 minutes or so he's on the court.

Marshall needs to shut up and go back to analyzing his legendary free throw shooting career.

[Celticjay]

I think

We'd rather have Gortat, Dudely and Nash for
JO, Rondo, and Bradley.

That would give us a legitimate shot at the championship this year assuming all are healthy.  

Offensively we would be sooooo much better and we would obviously slip defensively.  

Gortat works well with Nash and could help protect KG a bit.

Dudley would be a great 6/7th man of the bench who can provide some perimeter shooting...  Might need to add a pick or one of our rookies though...  

[indeedproceed]

Kyle Lowry is a binky of mine.

That said, as far as defense goes, I think they're peers at worst, favoring Lowry. But, I think that can be reversed, depending on preference. They are not, however, in separate classes. Defensively Rondo to Lowry is not a significant change, no matter which defender you favor.

Lowry is a better shooter, he scores with the same efficiency around the rim, and he gets to the line more often (which is counter-intuitive because Rondo goes to the cup more often, because he can't shoot).

Rondo is head and shoulders above Lowry in passing.

Lowry and Rondo are close in terms of rebounding ability, favoring Rondo.

Overall, Rondo to Lowry, assuming there is some regression to the mean for Lowry from where he played at the end of last season, is a step down, not a giant step down, but you're talking about going from a top 5 PG to a top 10. Its a difference.

[indeedproceed]

Los Nash is the antithesis of the way the Cs play.

Why do you call him Los Nash? He's Canadian!

More like, 'Nash, Eh?'

[Fafnir]

Los Nash is the antithesis of the way the Cs play.

Why do you call him Los Nash? He's Canadian!

More like, 'Nash, Eh?'

He wore NBA spainish verson uniforms a few time (as did the rest of the team) and has spoken up on politics.

Thus the derisive nickname and hate for his game. (though that might have been around before that)

[Sketch5]

OKC might be the team to trade with that would really work for both teams.

The Nash Idea would have been good 5 years ago, but if the team is rebuilding and trying to get Howard, why not get a point guard he would want to play with this year, and not hope to get them both next??? And no way can Nash guard Rose. He'd drop 40 every game in the play offs.

It dosen't work srtaight up. Rondo make too much and the C's are over the cap. What would work, and Im sure this wont go down, but Westbrook and Harden for Rondo and Moore.Now OKC has a point guard that is past first, get the ball to Durant more, and now he's going to average 40APG! LOL!

 Now the C's have Rays back up and maybe replacement next year or the year after. C's would give Westbrook the max contract. They make a good push this year, maybe even take it all. The team would look pretty good to Howard with this possible line up for next year.

 2012 team
   Westbrook/Dooling
   Ray/Harden
   Peirce/Green
   KG/Bass/JJJ
   Howard/??


And some good FA for 2013 could really make this team  the team to beat for the next 5 years.

Probably wont happen, I'd like Rondo to stay, but this would be alright with me if it happened. The Nash Idea just doesn't seem smart long term...

[Celticjay]

Problem is OKC wouldn't even trade westbrook straight up for Rondo.  Ainge asked and was denied at the end of the season.. 

So for them to throw in Harden makes it a non-starter.

I agree the Nash package isn't a long term plan but it does free up cap space and Gortat is a piece.  It is clear Rondo isn't in their long-term plans.  I could see the C's wining the championship this year and resigning Nash, KG, RA all for short money and still having enough to bring in a top Free Agent.

They could repackage Green next year as well for another piece.

It would be one hell of a season though..  Just worry about Nash's Defence against Rose in the playoffs.

[Sketch5]

Harden got thrown in there for contract reasons. Westbrook and Rondo Straight up doesn't work in the books. SO either a third team has to be involved, or OKC has to give up more. I've heard they're not happy with the amount of shots Westbrook takes. So they might be up for it at the deadline. ANd they don't want to pay max next year...

[Kane3387]

Kyle Lowry is a binky of mine.

That said, as far as defense goes, I think they're peers at worst, favoring Lowry. But, I think that can be reversed, depending on preference. They are not, however, in separate classes. Defensively Rondo to Lowry is not a significant change, no matter which defender you favor.

Lowry is a better shooter, he scores with the same efficiency around the rim, and he gets to the line more often (which is counter-intuitive because Rondo goes to the cup more often, because he can't shoot).

Rondo is head and shoulders above Lowry in passing.

Lowry and Rondo are close in terms of rebounding ability, favoring Rondo.

Overall, Rondo to Lowry, assuming there is some regression to the mean for Lowry from where he played at the end of last season, is a step down, not a giant step down, but you're talking about going from a top 5 PG to a top 10. Its a difference.

Since Houston just signed Dalembert with their cap room I think they might be taking abck too much money in that deal. If Houston really wants Gasol them and the Lakers would be better off just trading with one another. They don't really need us to facilitate that deal.

[Kane3387]

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7qd9v6c

Celts get Nash, Gortat
Suns get Rondo, Bradley, Bass and CLippers 1st round pick

Suns get a young all star and a first rounder
Celtics get two great players, and Gortat at a very reasonable price

Overpaying way too much!

I'm sorry but I don't want to stand pat with a team with NO SHOT of winning the championship.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. By the time Phoenix is willing to let Nash go we will know whether or not we are a legit contender as is with Rondo. I find a trade for Nash interesting but Phoenix has no leverage. He is unrestricted at the end of the year and likely headed elsewhere. If anything they should give us a protected pick for Rondo. He's younger and cheaper.

A deal like this makes more sense:

Robin Lopez, Michael Pietrus, and Steve Nash
for
Rondo, a 2nd round pick and Jermaine (and maybe a filler if were at 15 guys)

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=d2uj5s7

If we're not getting another piece other than Nash that is a big upgrade (and Lopez is worse than O'Neal and just as brittle at age 21), its not worth even considering.

Especially with Pietrus being hurt.

A Nash trade likely wont happen until closer to the deadline. Phoenix doesn't want to part with him. Pietrus would have to be deemed healthy for the trade to go through. Lopez has shown signs and at his age he is a cheap risk. I think his durability will be better then JOs.

But how about this one Faf? Exchange Grant hill for Pietrus (bc Hill wont want to be there with Nash gone) and we add Bradley to make contracts match. Hill's contract is 6.5 mill so just substitute him in, in the link below, for Gortat.

So Nash, Hill, and Lopez for Rondo, JO, and Bradley.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7qetjds

Or how about this one?

Nash and Lopez for Rondo and Bradley.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=78lzwzw

Add in a second round pick from Phoenix to us. I would say a first but I doubt they do that.

[snively]

Kyle Lowry is a binky of mine.

That said, as far as defense goes, I think they're peers at worst, favoring Lowry. But, I think that can be reversed, depending on preference. They are not, however, in separate classes. Defensively Rondo to Lowry is not a significant change, no matter which defender you favor.

Lowry is a better shooter, he scores with the same efficiency around the rim, and he gets to the line more often (which is counter-intuitive because Rondo goes to the cup more often, because he can't shoot).

Rondo is head and shoulders above Lowry in passing.

Lowry and Rondo are close in terms of rebounding ability, favoring Rondo.

Overall, Rondo to Lowry, assuming there is some regression to the mean for Lowry from where he played at the end of last season, is a step down, not a giant step down, but you're talking about going from a top 5 PG to a top 10. Its a difference.

I disagree.  Lowry's man defense may be comparable to Rondo's, but Rondo generates more possessions/fast break opportunities.  More impactful defensive player overall. 

Offensively, Lowry hits his free throws and has a better jumpshot (not saying much), but like Westbrook, pulls the trigger too much on the J.  If the 3-point shot he showed last season is here to stay, I give him a significant edge over Rondo as a scorer.  If not, I rate them even. 

[2short]

I put no substance into anything Donny Marshall says, replace him with donnie wahlberg he knows more about the game!

[Kane3387]

Ok Last one I am doing in this thread.

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=83ywcks

Boston gets Lowry, Lopez, and Martin

Houston gets Nash, Gortat, and Bradley

Phoenix gets Rondo, JO, Jordan Hill and a first from Boston

I would do this trade in a second. I can also see why Phoenix and Houston would be attracted to this deal too.

Nash will sell tickets in Houston. A combination of Gortat and Dalembert isn't Gasol and Nene by any means but you throw Scola and Patterson in there and you have a nice rotation of bigs. Scola could be moved.

Phoenix gets Rondo, an expiring in JO, and first round pick.
Thoughts?