Rondo has peaked

[slamtheking]

He peaked?  what were you trying to hide, his Christmas present?   

[Greenbean]

Rondo and his style have been absolutely perfect for this team the last 5 years.

After all those veterans and offensive firepower leave, he is not nearly as valuable.

There are only a handful of teams where Rondo would be as valuable as he is on the Celtics.

Miami, Lakers and I cant think of many more.

  Look for teams that have decent outside shooters, athletic bigs or players that can run the break. There must be at least a few of them in the league.

  I would expect the team in the league where he'd be the least valuable would be the Heat, unless you could convince both Wade and James that Rondo needs to start the offense on most possessions. Their biggest use of a pg is a spot up shooter to spread the floor.

I was assuming that Wade and Bron would be able to concede the pg duties to Rondo. I realize that would be asking alot but with ROndo they would not have to worry about losing shots. They would know they could get the ball.

[BballTim]

Rondo and his style have been absolutely perfect for this team the last 5 years.

After all those veterans and offensive firepower leave, he is not nearly as valuable.

There are only a handful of teams where Rondo would be as valuable as he is on the Celtics.

Miami, Lakers and I cant think of many more.

  Look for teams that have decent outside shooters, athletic bigs or players that can run the break. There must be at least a few of them in the league.

  I would expect the team in the league where he'd be the least valuable would be the Heat, unless you could convince both Wade and James that Rondo needs to start the offense on most possessions. Their biggest use of a pg is a spot up shooter to spread the floor.

I was assuming that Wade and Bron would be able to concede the pg duties to Rondo. I realize that would be asking alot but with ROndo they would not have to worry about losing shots. They would know they could get the ball.

  That's a lot to ask.

  Kind of an aside, but when LeBron was looking for another team, the perfect spot from him would have been sliding into PP's spot on the Celts. Great defenders, players that make big contributions to the game without having to score every trip down (KG/PP/RR), floor spacers in Ray and KG. That team would have destroyed the league.

  But I digress.

[dtrader]

  Rondo is physically more gifted than Chris Paul.  He is faster, longer and more durable.  Rondo is smarter than Chris Paul.  He is more aware of what is happening during games and can make adjustments and call plays on the floor like a coach.  Chris Paul is much more skilled than Rondo.  He's an elite passer, elite scorer, good defender and good rebounder.
   Chris Paul is without a doubt the better player.  However Rondo has a much higher ceiling.   Skill can be learned, but IQ and athleticism can't.  Rondo has improved at a much faster rate than Chris Paul.  Rondo came into the league very raw as a late round draft pick.  Chris Paul was a star from the moment he stepped into the NBA.  Rondo has not closed the gap completely, but he's a lot closer to Paul than he was to start.  Rondo has also slowly improved his field goal percentage, despite a steady increase in shot attempts,  to near 50% and actually shoots more efficiently from the field than Chris Paul.  Paul is still the far better scorer because he is a far superior 3 point shooter and converts his free throws.  
   If Rondo becomes a better shooter, he would surpass Chris Paul as the best point guard in the league. However there is no reason to expect Rondo will become a better shooter overnight.  His humongous wingspan and large hands makes it very hard to get a shooting touch.  But he WILL improve his shooting, especially as his responsibility shifts from set up man to leader.  I have no doubt that in two years Rondo will be equal to if not better than Chris Paul.  

How do you know Rondo has a higher basketball IQ?   


And how is the shooting skill learning going with Rondo? 


We hope in two years Rondo can be as good as Paul?


Yep, I am still for the trade.

  I'd say that up until Rondo's hand injury his shooting was going fairly well. He was taking more of the shots and hitting about 45% of his long twos. I'd also go with him on the BBIQ. DOc always talks about Rondo's knowledge of the game and BBIQ being hands down the best he's been around as a coach in the league.

No one said he doesn't have a good basketball IQ.  I just want to know how we suddenly know he a better one then Paul?

  We don't "know", we strongly suspect. And it didn't happen "suddenly".

There seems to be a lot of the "we don't know but we suspect or hope" going on around here.



Like "we hope Rondo develops so he is as good as Paul in two years"

  Haha. I thought it was more like "we hope CP3 can play as well as Rondo did no Nov/Dec".

  Kidding, since half the people here are fairly unaware that there's a difference between CP3 in 2008 and 2011, especially since they saw him play against the Lakers, not the game where he scored 10 points, one of the other games.

There's no reason to think CP will be any differnt this year, than he was any other healthy year.  It's not like he's perk coming off a major surgery.  Doesnt make much sense to point out a 10 point game as evidence, cuz by that logic Rondos last game where he had 6 points and 3 assists would be even more telling.

[Moreover]

Celtics offensive rating (points per 100 poss):

08/09 - 110.5 (6th out of 30 teams)
09/10 - 107.7 (10th out of 30 teams)
10/11 - 106.2 (18th out of 30 teams)

This is why you trade Rondo for Chris Paul.

The larger the role Rondo plays in the Celtics offense as the big 3 grow older, the worse the offense is. Last year it was below average.

Rondo surrounded by the current Pierce, Allen and KG cant' even get your offense to be average. Below average offenses don't win championships. To have an above average offense with Rondo as your PG, you need better offensive weapons than the current Big 3. How likely is that to happen in the future?

[Jon]

Too early to say he's peaked.  But Paul is the better player now, and likely the better player going forward.  So you make this deal, since it gives us a better chance to win it all this year and a better chance to recruit people like Howard next year. 

[BigGovy]

Flat out stupid....i have been saying i like rondo more than Paul but have come around to the thinking you can build with paul and if it also nets you howard then way worth it...however saying his game is peaked is foolish and lacks any understanding of the game itself. Now if he is a guy that doesn't work on stuff ( which i don't think he is lazy) then yes he has peaked. But lets not forget or maybe some of us too young to know, that Dr.J had no outside game coming over from the NBA and then year two he developed ( NBA) a bank shot from 15 and eventually was more than decent from 18ft straight away. Same could be said for Michael Jordan who had a flatter shot but expanded his range and accuracy over the years. Rondo has always been a pass first pass second shoot third kid so maybe the learning curve is a tad slower. But to flat out say he has peaked in my opinion is BS...but as said before even though a Rondo guy i am all for the trade

[TheTruthFot18]

Rondo and his style have been absolutely perfect for this team the last 5 years.

After all those veterans and offensive firepower leave, he is not nearly as valuable.

There are only a handful of teams where Rondo would be as valuable as he is on the Celtics.

Miami, Lakers and I cant think of many more.

Perfect point. We all know hes not a cp3 or dwill type pg you can build around but surround him with other all star talent outside the pg spot and everyone wins.

[droopdog7]

He still is young enough that he could easily improve, but he is largely the player he's going to be. But his flaws are such that even modest improvments to his free throw and jump shot percentage would create a large boost in his level of play.

So true. Which is why its interesting to see us giving up on him. Either there is some credibility to the rumors hes a lockerroom pain in the pa-toot. Or Ainge just isnt seeing enough improvement of his game to take it to the next level. My question is the latter part an issue of motivation or has danny seen him reach his ceiling?

Giving up on him?  Trading Rondo (if it happens) for a better player is not exactly giving up on him?

[droopdog7]

Shooting free throws in NBA level basketball games isn't easy, and the history of the league shows is not something everyone can learn.

I think what it shows is that there are a lot of people with NBA talent, that have a poor work ethic to go along with it. Ray Allen is not a magical unicorn, he wasn't born with the ability to hit shots like a boss.

imagine your hands were twice as large as they are right now and you had the added pressure of taking the shots in front of thousands of people.  not easy.  even if the pressure doesn't ever bother you, it might be impossible if your hands are so disproportionately large compared to the ball (rondo and shaq have that problem).

Shaq's problem is his pride. Big hands? Big deal. Take your free throws Rick Barry style, underhand. Shaq's abysmal FT% is all between his ears, concern about image.

I personally think that Rondo should do his FT attempts as a jumpshot; he seems more comfortable shooting that way and it's not against the rules.

I disagree with your premise that Ray Allen wasn't born to shoot.  While this may be true from an evolutionary standpoint, good shooting is a product of both work and inherent ability.  There is no question that some people are predisposed to be better shooters that others.  And the great ones have both the work ethics and predisposition.

[CelticHooligan3]

He still is young enough that he could easily improve, but he is largely the player he's going to be. But his flaws are such that even modest improvments to his free throw and jump shot percentage would create a large boost in his level of play.

So true. Which is why its interesting to see us giving up on him. Either there is some credibility to the rumors hes a lockerroom pain in the pa-toot. Or Ainge just isnt seeing enough improvement of his game to take it to the next level. My question is the latter part an issue of motivation or has danny seen him reach his ceiling?

Giving up on him?  Trading Rondo (if it happens) for a better player is not exactly giving up on him?

What i mean by that is fafnir is right.. Even small improvements to his free throw shooting and general fg percentage would bring his whole level of play up greatly in my opinion.

So essentially by trading him is danny saying "i dont see the kid makeing even these minor improvements"? Because for the most part it does seem like it could be minor tweaking and he would certainly be close to the level of CP or D Rose.

Or is it something else behind the scenes we arent seeing. Because if danny is ready to let the kid go who is so very close to that next level isnt that the smoke before the fire really? Just a thought i guess..

[BballTim]

Celtics offensive rating (points per 100 poss):

08/09 - 110.5 (6th out of 30 teams)
09/10 - 107.7 (10th out of 30 teams)
10/11 - 106.2 (18th out of 30 teams)

This is why you trade Rondo for Chris Paul.

The larger the role Rondo plays in the Celtics offense as the big 3 grow older, the worse the offense is. Last year it was below average.

  In 08-09 we got offensive rebounds on 28% of our missed shots. In 2011 we got offensive rebounds on 21% of our missed shots. This is by far the biggest reason the drop in our offense. Signing Chris Paul isn't going to fix this problem, and it obviously isn't because of Rondo playing a larger role in the offense. In 08-09 the team had an eFG% of just under 53%. Last year we were still at 52% despite the fact that the big three are no longer dominant offensive players. *That's* from Rondo playing a bigger role in the offense.

[BballTim]

  Rondo is physically more gifted than Chris Paul.  He is faster, longer and more durable.  Rondo is smarter than Chris Paul.  He is more aware of what is happening during games and can make adjustments and call plays on the floor like a coach.  Chris Paul is much more skilled than Rondo.  He's an elite passer, elite scorer, good defender and good rebounder.
   Chris Paul is without a doubt the better player.  However Rondo has a much higher ceiling.   Skill can be learned, but IQ and athleticism can't.  Rondo has improved at a much faster rate than Chris Paul.  Rondo came into the league very raw as a late round draft pick.  Chris Paul was a star from the moment he stepped into the NBA.  Rondo has not closed the gap completely, but he's a lot closer to Paul than he was to start.  Rondo has also slowly improved his field goal percentage, despite a steady increase in shot attempts,  to near 50% and actually shoots more efficiently from the field than Chris Paul.  Paul is still the far better scorer because he is a far superior 3 point shooter and converts his free throws.  
   If Rondo becomes a better shooter, he would surpass Chris Paul as the best point guard in the league. However there is no reason to expect Rondo will become a better shooter overnight.  His humongous wingspan and large hands makes it very hard to get a shooting touch.  But he WILL improve his shooting, especially as his responsibility shifts from set up man to leader.  I have no doubt that in two years Rondo will be equal to if not better than Chris Paul.  

How do you know Rondo has a higher basketball IQ?   


And how is the shooting skill learning going with Rondo? 


We hope in two years Rondo can be as good as Paul?


Yep, I am still for the trade.

  I'd say that up until Rondo's hand injury his shooting was going fairly well. He was taking more of the shots and hitting about 45% of his long twos. I'd also go with him on the BBIQ. DOc always talks about Rondo's knowledge of the game and BBIQ being hands down the best he's been around as a coach in the league.

No one said he doesn't have a good basketball IQ.  I just want to know how we suddenly know he a better one then Paul?

  We don't "know", we strongly suspect. And it didn't happen "suddenly".

There seems to be a lot of the "we don't know but we suspect or hope" going on around here.



Like "we hope Rondo develops so he is as good as Paul in two years"

  Haha. I thought it was more like "we hope CP3 can play as well as Rondo did no Nov/Dec".

  Kidding, since half the people here are fairly unaware that there's a difference between CP3 in 2008 and 2011, especially since they saw him play against the Lakers, not the game where he scored 10 points, one of the other games.

There's no reason to think CP will be any differnt this year, than he was any other healthy year.  It's not like he's perk coming off a major surgery.  Doesnt make much sense to point out a 10 point game as evidence, cuz by that logic Rondos last game where he had 6 points and 3 assists would be even more telling.

 Ok, you don't see CP3's knee as any more of a long term issue than a hangnail. But, when you say a healthy year, which years of his career do you mean? Last year? The year before, before he hurt his knee? Every year he's been in the league?

[thirstyboots18]

Yes, he's young and technically has time to develop, but really, how long would a 25 (or whatever) year old basketball player been working on FT's and shooting wide open 15' jumpers?

If he hasn't developed this skill to at least a passable level a by now (after at least a decade of trying to), he simply won't.

Two words for you: Jason Kidd.

two more words for you:  Chauncey Billips

[kenmaine]

HELLO!
Yes, Rondo has peaked. As the second or third best pg(OK, maybe fourth) in the NBA, and signed for four more years at a reasonable deal. And that's our problem???
Yes, he sucks so much that the C's already won one title, and almost another with him running the show.
So the right move is to trade him for a selfish, "I wanna go to NY" whiner who makes about five or six million more/year and might leave after the season? Yeah, that makes sense. GMAB
How about getting a center like Perkins, and a few bench players like, oh I don't know, maybe Tony Allen, Leon Powe, and Eddie House. Oh, that's right, they suck too, I forgot.
Danny is too clever for his own good- sometimes you should just leave well enough alone.
That's my two cents- I'll check back in in another six months or so. Enjoy the season everyone.
ps- and Dwight Howard is a big phony and an elbow throwing cheap shot artist, who also can't shoot!