Who Do You Blame (Merged)

[PosImpos]

I can't help but being most angry at Billy Hunter. The NBAPA has been nothing short of pathetic throughout negotiations.

Why do you think so? What could he have done better for the interests of his players? Do you think they should have just caved and taken the 47% offer that was first put out there?

Or should they have taken this offer now?

Yes, the players should have taken the offer now.  This is the best they were going to get.

[cman88]

Owners. The players are the only ones really conceding anything here, and it is for pretty dubious reasons (the supposition that the players' salaries is what is making the league unprofitable).

what good is making concessions in the negotiating room if you arent going to give the players a chance to vote on it anyways??

Hunter is afraid that the rank and file players will accept it and he will get fired for looking weak.

this is about Pride right now. the players will lose this either way

[Chris]

Both sides are equally guilty (along with some other parties, such as the agents, lawyers, etc.).  Greed has won out on all sides.  We will see how this plays out in the long-run, but I don't think anyone will fully recover for a long time.

[PosImpos]

More thoughts: Hunter didn't allow the entire body of players to vote because he was afraid that the "little guys" would have voted against the hardliners' wishes to pursue litigation. He was afraid that they would have had no choice but to accept the deal, or be thrown to the wolves for being the guys that went against their own union's wishes.

Everybody and their mother knew that this deal had a 0% chance of being accepted without a full union vote.

This is a good point.  I have a feeling that if all of the players in the union got a chance to vote on a deal, the majority of them would vote for it because they can't afford to go a whole season without a pay check.

I think there's a strong argument to be made that Billy Hunters and the agents are most to blame here.  The players have been really foolish in these negotiations, and the owners bullish and obstinant, but given the large gap in their business and negotiating training, that's to be expected. 

The players aren't supposed to be good at this sort of thing.  Perhaps the biggest mistake the players have made is putting their trust in Billy Hunter and the agents.

[Fafnir]

Owners. The players are the only ones really conceding anything here, and it is for pretty dubious reasons (the supposition that the players' salaries is what is making the league unprofitable).

what good is making concessions in the negotiating room if you arent going to give the players a chance to vote on it anyways??

Hunter is afraid that the rank and file players will accept it and he will get fired for looking weak.

this is about Pride right now. the players will lose this either way

I don't think this CBA would get ratified in a vote by the players. Its the lower level players that would get squeezed the most by this.

I do think it'd be close though (not a united front), and the division would weaken the players leverage even more.

[Fafnir]

I can't help but being most angry at Billy Hunter. The NBAPA has been nothing short of pathetic throughout negotiations.

Why do you think so? What could he have done better for the interests of his players? Do you think they should have just caved and taken the 47% offer that was first put out there?

Or should they have taken this offer now?

Yes, the players should have taken the offer now.  This is the best they were going to get.

Well they still find it unacceptable hence today's actions.

It sucks for us, but for them if they truly did not find the NBA's most recent offer acceptable it was the last card they had to play.

I've said it many times, but its really easy to get mad at the players (or owners) for not giving us the league we love. But we aren't entitled to get to watch the NBA.

[PosImpos]

Owners. The players are the only ones really conceding anything here, and it is for pretty dubious reasons (the supposition that the players' salaries is what is making the league unprofitable).

what good is making concessions in the negotiating room if you arent going to give the players a chance to vote on it anyways??

Hunter is afraid that the rank and file players will accept it and he will get fired for looking weak.

this is about Pride right now. the players will lose this either way

I don't think it's fair to say that the owners haven't made any concessions, either.  If that were true, they would have proposed 47% from the beginning and not budged from there.

The owners had a lot of really harsh changes they wanted to implement in the new CBA, and the latest offer was much softer than that.

To the extent that the offers the owners have put forward recently are much more favorable for the owners than the previous deal, I think that can be explained by the fact that the owners have, and always have had, much more leverage in these negotiations. 

If the players were more savvy, they would recognize that in situations like these, if you don't have leverage you have to accept a deal that you won't like.

[cman88]

Owners. The players are the only ones really conceding anything here, and it is for pretty dubious reasons (the supposition that the players' salaries is what is making the league unprofitable).

what good is making concessions in the negotiating room if you arent going to give the players a chance to vote on it anyways??

Hunter is afraid that the rank and file players will accept it and he will get fired for looking weak.

this is about Pride right now. the players will lose this either way

I don't think this CBA would get ratified in a vote by the players. Its the lower level players that would get squeezed the most by this.

I do think it'd be close though (not a united front), and the division would weaken the players leverage even more.

these guys cant survive a season without $$...especially when there time in the NBA is limited as theres young college players waiting in the wings...guys like pierce/kg/kobe can survive a missed season with the millions they have made in their careers.

its the Agents, Hunter and the guys like KG/PP/Kobe who are against this deal.

[Fafnir]

its the Agents, Hunter and the guys like KG/PP/Kobe who are against this deal.

I don't think you can say this with such certainty.

Especially when mid to low level FAs would be the ones squeezed by the new "system" issues that in the end is what the players found unacceptable. (they agreed to the 50% BRI)

[Who]

Owners

[nickagneta]

Owners. The players are the only ones really conceding anything here, and it is for pretty dubious reasons (the supposition that the players' salaries is what is making the league unprofitable).

what good is making concessions in the negotiating room if you arent going to give the players a chance to vote on it anyways??

Hunter is afraid that the rank and file players will accept it and he will get fired for looking weak.

this is about Pride right now. the players will lose this either way

Remember, union executive committees and heads of unions are paid to represent the best interest of the players and at times protect them from themselves. If the union decided that they would not be able to get vote approved or that the vote would be extremely close, it could rip apart the union and cause strife within the union.

Not allowing it to go to a vote was probably a good thing. The interest of disclaimer was a horrible move.

[StartOrien]

I can't help but being most angry at Billy Hunter. The NBAPA has been nothing short of pathetic throughout negotiations.

Why do you think so? What could he have done better for the interests of his players? Do you think they should have just caved and taken the 47% offer that was first put out there?

Or should they have taken this offer now?

I just get the feeling that we as fans are angry at no basketball and aren't thinking about how we'd react if our bosses asked us to take a 10% wage cut and also imposed stricter limits on us as well.

He played a game of chicken with a group that showed absolutely no willingness to budge at any point

[indeedproceed]

Owners. The players are the only ones really conceding anything here, and it is for pretty dubious reasons (the supposition that the players' salaries is what is making the league unprofitable).

what good is making concessions in the negotiating room if you arent going to give the players a chance to vote on it anyways??

Hunter is afraid that the rank and file players will accept it and he will get fired for looking weak.

this is about Pride right now. the players will lose this either way

You're probably right that the players will lose either way, but from my viewpoint, this negotiation has been one of bad faith, and unnecessary greed and malicious nature from the owners from the start. For every inch the players have given, the owners are asking a yard in two other places, without offering anything in return.

I think there is enough of a faction within the owners that have zero interest in a legitimate NBA season this year that there won't be one, and I think they've already made the necessary moves to accommodate a lost season. I think failing the complete and utter subjugation of the players' union, the NBA was fully aware that this (a lost season) would be an outcome, and I find their hubris insulting to me as a fan.

Not that the players are in a super hurry to save 'the game', but in the case of the bully and the victim, I tend to root for the victim. The players have much, much more to lose in the short term, and if they feel that this is all they can stands, and they can't stands no more, I support them here.

[PosImpos]

its the Agents, Hunter and the guys like KG/PP/Kobe who are against this deal.

I don't think you can say this with such certainty.

Especially when mid to low level FAs would be the ones squeezed by the new "system" issues that in the end is what the players found unacceptable. (they agreed to the 50% BRI)

A lot of the guys who would get squeezed by the latest offers, I think, would rather earn a smaller pay check than none at all (or one in Europe).  

Many of the lower-level players are facing the possibility that their NBA careers might be completely over or seriously derailed if there is no season this year.

It's possible they'd be too short-sighted and hot-blooded at this point to see it that way, but that's the reality for many of the players, especially the ones who didn't have a multi-year, multi-million dollar contract set prior to the lockout.

[fairweatherfan]

its the Agents, Hunter and the guys like KG/PP/Kobe who are against this deal.

Kobe was pretty vocally for taking the deal, according to reports. 

And they must be very persuasive, because the player reps voted 30-0 for the disclaimer.  Lots of midlevel and vet min guys in that group.